Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[Liminality]

Maybe it's both reasons? Maybe Babcock helped him fit better in his role on the ice and Kadri grew up and matured from his previous years.

 

[thewave]

Organizational support was a big factor and I think Shanahan got directly involved.

But so too was his own personal decision.

There’s a segment of the fan base that hates this message but it comes from Kadri directly:

“It was literally a wake-up call for Kadri. Shanahan sat him down and made it clear he needed to cut out the off-ice excess if he wanted to be an NHL player. But he also made it clear he thought Kadri could be one of the survivors of the rebuild.

"It was a crossroads in my career and I had to make the right choice," Kadri said. "It was up to me, nobody else, to guide myself in the right direction.”

- Dec 26,2017 Nazem Kadri’s long road to Leafs' overnight success
​

He had talent and opportunity. He almost pissed it away. He didn’t. A massive credit goes to him for realizing his “off ice excess” and choosing the right path in the cross roads.

Exactly, this is ultimately the answer. Kadri was made aware and made a choice, his talent is his own based on the work he put in to honing it.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Both have always been good players, poor utilization by the Leafs. Kadri got jerked around like Leivo is now. For a time Jake was in the press box all the time.

Its kinda dumb to credit Babs or Shanahan for Kadri. He just got screwed around acted out some and then grew up. Who knows if the organization used him right off the bat, maybe less happens outside hockey.

Kadri and Jake only serve to prove how terribly run the TPP Nonis and Burke were.

Babcock put them in suitable roles, gave then realistic expectations and brought in tons of experience. He definitely helped them flourish the most Imo.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

Maybe it's both reasons? Maybe Babcock helped him fit better in his role on the ice and Kadri grew up and matured from his previous years.

Exactly right.

Ron and Randy were not great for him and threw him under the bus when he didn't deserve it.

Babs has given him all the conditions he needs to succeed, and he's taking full advantage of it.

In-between, there was the suspension and the hard look in the mirror where he really matured overnight.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Dave Morrison deserves some credit here for making the right pick. A lot of people had Cowan or MPS at that spot. I believe he should not have been fired. Rielly, Nylander and Brown were also good picks. The only draft where we gave him a bunch of picks to work with was 2009 and he was handicapped by Burkes preference for grit, size and toughness.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

He has always yearned to play against the best and finally got his chance under Babcock. I think he could have been playing this style of game effectively from a much earlier point in his career, the talent and drive was there and he was quicker. The long term contract probably took a lot of pressure off of him and allowed him to just concentrate on the best methods to be productive, more garbage goals and less dangles. And to elaborate on this a bit: years ago many people were very supportive of Naz getting more playing time and feeling like the Leafs were wasting his potential. Naz supporters were constantly ridiculed and Kadri was bashed relentlessly. When Kadri finally got a chance to play with JVR and Kessel when Bozak was hurt he played an effective and safe defensive game that boosted the stats of his wingers. However, because Kadri had low point totals during this brief tenure Naz supporters were mocked over his production. I think he was ready to be a defensively minded player many years ago but at that time many considered him to be absolutely terrible at defense: he wasn't.

 

[Voodoo Child]

With Kadri the skill was always there, even now, a few times a year he makes a mainboard thread worthy play.

The questions were about how he would adapt to the NHL.

Could he get big enough? 6' 190 is the same ballpark as Crosby. I remember he came in just under 170 at the draft. Centers with his level of skill that are 6'3 205 at 18 tend to go 1st or 2nd overall...

Could he get disciplined enough? He crosses the line at times still but rarely, he doesn't go for the low percentage move anymore, he doesn't take long shifts, he doesn't bitch at the refs too much anymore and he doesn't oversell penalties anymore. The off ice antics (I've heard quite many things about them) have ceased and he is committed to his training.

Could he add dimensions to his game? He was drafted and expected to be a 'PP specialist 2nd line winger (who can jump up if need be)', Brayden Schenn was 'a 1st line center with Selke votes in five years', never forget (to Schenn's credit, he has had a fine year), but look now how Kadri is probably about a top 30 defensive forward, and certainly a top 20 center, in the league and Schenn isn't even in the same galaxy with his two way play.

I can't say whether or not he succeeded because of or in spite of the path he had to take, and I don't know him persoally, but I don't think I would be far off in assuming he's a driven guy with a chip on his shoulder, who (and this may be in part to his ethnicity, or it may not, not trying to be provocative, but I can't imagine he grew up playing with too many other Muslims, even though his family seems quite secular) loves to prove people wrong and is motivated by criticism.

But to me it just shows that not every kid in the 1st round is going to be an instant star like Crosby, Ovie, McDavid or Matthews; some guys need a little more time to learn and grow and mature, personally and professionally. Every year guys break out that make me think 'Damn I'm old I remember when this guy was an elite prospect...'

This year it's Couturier, Schenn and Bailey.

Last year it was Kadri, Granlund and Backlund.

The year before, probably other guys. Good hockey guys like we have have an eye for this sort of thing. If Nonis were still here, he would have probably shipped him + a 2nd for like Mike Green or something.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Maybe it's both reasons? Maybe Babcock helped him fit better in his role on the ice and Kadri grew up and matured from his previous years.

Exactly right.

Ron and Randy were not great for him and threw him under the bus when he didn't deserve it.

Babs has given him all the conditions he needs to succeed, and he's taking full advantage of it.

In-between, there was the suspension and the hard look in the mirror where he really matured overnight.

I'm in the both reasons camp too - as usual the truth lies between the two extremes IMHO.

And let's not forget though that despite being handled less than optimally under previous regimes, Kadri was already a very good player before his suspension so this narrative some like to spin that he was on the verge of being out of the league had he not "turned it around" as per the much overstated "crossroads" quote is ridiculous. He was an established #2C having a solid career as one of the best players on his team. His point totals would have gone up anyway as many of us predicted would happen with a better team around him but he's of course also improved his overall game, just taken it up a notch as it were.

Would Kadri have reached the level he's at now without the improvement in management? We can never know of course but I'm happy to give management some credit here, most of the credit goes to Kadri anyway of course.

On pace for 55 points I believe and as usual, doing it while going up against the best players the NHL has to offer. Plays with an edge and emotion that often inspires his teammates to raise their game as well. Hasn't taken a single bad penalty either that I can recall after that one incident a long time ago that had some people freaking out and referring to him as a selfish player. What a beauty, can't wait to see him in the playoffs again!

 

[1specter]

Dave Morrison deserves some credit here for making the right pick. A lot of people had Cowan or MPS at that spot. I believe he should not have been fired. Rielly, Nylander and Brown were also good picks. The only draft where we gave him a bunch of picks to work with was 2009 and he was handicapped by Burkes preference for grit, size and toughness.

Morrison wasn't fired, he was one of the only scouts still kept. Although I believe he switched to professional scouting instead of looking after the amateur side.

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

The year before, probably other guys. Good hockey guys like we have have an eye for this sort of thing. If Nonis were still here, he would have probably shipped him + a 2nd for like Mike Green or something.

As much as i'd like to hate on past management for their incompetence, Nonis was pretty good at trades. I mean shipping of Clarkson for nothing was absolutely insane haha. As for Kadri, I think he did have some bad habits early in his career that he needed to work on. I think under Randy he did develop his identity of playing on the edge and the maturity and the complete 200 ft was further refined under babcock.

Kadri was always really resilient and you have to be to play in the Toronto Market. I think in the end that's what allowed him to be the player he is today.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He has always yearned to play against the best and finally got his chance under Babcock. I think he could have been playing this style of game effectively from a much earlier point in his career, the talent and drive was there and he was quicker. The long term contract probably took a lot of pressure off of him and allowed him to just concentrate on the best methods to be productive, more garbage goals and less dangles. And to elaborate on this a bit: years ago many people were very supportive of Naz getting more playing time and feeling like the Leafs were wasting his potential. Naz supporters were constantly ridiculed and Kadri was bashed relentlessly. When Kadri finally got a chance to play with JVR and Kessel when Bozak was hurt he played an effective and safe defensive game that boosted the stats of his wingers. However, because Kadri had low point totals during this brief tenure Naz supporters were mocked over his production. I think he was ready to be a defensively minded player many years ago but at that time many considered him to be absolutely terrible at defense: he wasn't.

Yeah he took so much abuse here it was shameful. Remember when he was mocked for being a "32 point centre"? Some of us always said that with better wingers and a better team around him he would get more points and it turns out that he didn't even need better wingers, a better team around him was enough though now he finally has good wingers too and is really thriving. All this makes it even more ridiculous when people talk of a "huge turnaround" etc., none of us know what went on off the ice but on the ice, Kadri was always good. All anyone had to do to know this was to watch the games without bias and look beyond point totals.

As much as i'd like to hate on past management for their incompetence, Nonis was pretty good at trades. I mean shipping of Clarkson for nothing was absolutely insane haha. As for Kadri, I think he did have some bad habits early in his career that he needed to work on. I think under Randy he did develop his identity of playing on the edge and the maturity and the complete 200 ft was further refined under babcock.

Kadri was always really resilient and you have to be to play in the Toronto Market. I think in the end that's what allowed him to be the player he is today.

So true! Not just to survive in this market but to survive all the crap he's had to endure here. Mentally he just might be the toughest player on our team.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Exactly right.

Ron and Randy were not great for him and threw him under the bus when he didn't deserve it.

Babs has given him all the conditions he needs to succeed, and he's taking full advantage of it.

In-between, there was the suspension and the hard look in the mirror where he really matured overnight.

In regards to Randy no he didn't.
like i see people say this about Babcock regarding Will. like "why can't he just say "good job" why is it always something will did wrong." just because it's not all flowers and candy doesn't mean it's automatically "under the bus." I wasn't in the country for Wilson so i can't talk about that.

Randy Carlyle defended Naz a lot. he was also hard on him and being hard on a player isn't a bad thing.

 

[Menzinger]

Some people are so entrenched in the belief that others were holding Kadri back. Coaches. GMs. Line mates (even to this day). Luck. Misuse. These posters have backed him since the beginning.

To hear that most of the “holding back” was coming from choices he was making flies in the face of a set way of viewing the world that they have vested so much time and personal belief in.

So textbook Cogntive Dissonance.

To admit the guy had “off ice excess” or faced a choice of being in the NHL or not (as Shanahan put to him), doesn’t sit. It wasn’t external factors... it was his own.

Sadly, they miss the real beauty of the story and go on full attack mode.

It’s almost as if it’s not a choice between one or the other....

A player can go through individual developmental issues in their personal lives AND face structural constraints due to poor organizational player development systems

 

[IPS]

It’s almost as if it’s not a choice between one or the other....

A player can go through individual developmental issues in their personal lives AND face structural constraints due to poor organizational player development systems

Pookie tactic #1: try to force you into siding with one extreme or the other

 

[moon111]

I think Kadri can be a little too eager at times. Putting him on with both Marleau and Marner was resulting in more offense with less defense. Good teams on their game were exploiting this at times. The +/-, if you took out games where the opposition just didn't have it, wasn't looking good. He just can't help himself in getting in there, leaving the line getting constantly scored against. Two defensive wingers wasn't working either. Although I know many would disagree, but IMHO, think Kadri's best situation is with one offensive winger, and one defensive. He's been left being the only one generating offense, he's been the only one left playing defense. Now I think you'll see the best two-way game from Kadri if they stick to this line-up formula.

 

[TML11]

Kadri always had the skill set to succeed. He needed the right chemistry on a team. This year's leafs are giving him that. Coaching, management, players., they all combined to propel him up a few notches in the professionalism category. Even his interviews are more professional. If you listen carefully, he always seems to deflect any success to his line mates...true leader in the making. He has grown up a lot on and off the ice.
JMO.

 

[ponder]

Pre-Babs, I’d say poorly developed. Publicly called out, rarely put in a position to succeed. I do think Babs has been great for him though, a lot more trust and responsibility. Not that it’s just given out freely, but he’s encouraged Kadri to step up to challenges, and Naz has excelled doing so.

It’s also partly him maturing, but I don’t think he’d be excelling in this shutdown 2C role under Carlyle. IMO he never would have been asked to step up and grow into that role, we would have just signed some mediocre defensive 3C instead.

 

[Pookie]

It’s almost as if it’s not a choice between one or the other....

A player can go through individual developmental issues in their personal lives AND face structural constraints due to poor organizational player development systems

Read my first post. Credited organization and the player.

This was a specific response as to a question as to why some of you don’t want to acknowledge his “crossroads”

 

[Jeypic]

Kadri is a beast. He’s really in his element right now. Timing has been perfect on a lot for him lately.

Management came in and forced him to take things seriously. He did. New superstars joined the team and forced him to step his game up even more and be a leader even more. He did.

 

[Pookie]

Pookie tactic #1: try to force you into siding with one extreme or the other

Give yourself a day off once and awhile.

 

[Pookie]

Yeah he took so much abuse here it was shameful. Remember when he was mocked for being a "32 point centre"? Some of us always said that with better wingers and a better team around him he would get more points and it turns out that he didn't even need better wingers, a better team around him was enough though now he finally has good wingers too and is really thriving. All this makes it even more ridiculous when people talk of a "huge turnaround" etc., none of us know what went on off the ice but on the ice, Kadri was always good. All anyone had to do to know this was to watch the games without bias and look beyond point totals.



So true! Not just to survive in this market but to survive all the crap he's had to endure here. Mentally he just might be the toughest player on our team.

Cognitive dissonance at its best.

 

[TML11]

Cognitive dissonance at its best.

agreed. he rose above a lot of adversity on and off the ice. made him stronger. He can be a beast when needed, but not a jerk about it. like some one else recently....

 

[IPS]

I gotta admit though, I really didn't see him as a 30-goal guy.

I saw the 60+ points coming but I thought it was going to be mostly assists. Unfortunately his slump earlier in the year kind of made 60 points out of the question at this point but he's most likely hitting 30 goals again. How many people saw Kadri becoming a back-to-back 30 goal scorer?

 

[Superstar]

Lol all the crying over MPS/MSP

I remember that one poster going on and on and on and on about how awesome MSP is.

 

[TMLegend]

He was a immature sack of **** early in his career. Still is, on occasion. That's not on the coaching staff, that's on him.

I do think the tough love approach was probably best for Kadri long-term though. If he was coddled like many early in his career I think he may have turned out to be a guy like Mike Ribeiro.