Did Bettman try and save the Jets?

[kdb209]

Take each city's average attendance and compare it to the leagues average that same year. What i'm saying is, that the average attendance in winnipeg would have increased with the League average the same as phoenix's did. I'm saying is Winnipeg's average attendance (if had the arena) would have been on par with phoenix's average attendance.

Comparing a teams attendance to "league average attendance" in absolute numbers is a meaningless excercise.

The increase in league average attendance was due to the opening of new and larger arenas starting in the mid 90's, replacing older, smaller venues.

HP Pavilion (1993) - 17,400
United Center (1994) - 20,100
ScottTrade Center (1994) - 19,000
GM Place (1995) - 18,600
TD Banknorth Garden (1995) - 17,600
Scotiabank Place (1996) - 19,100
Bell Center (1996) - 21,200
HSBC Arena (1996) - 18,700
Wachovia Center (1996) - 19,500
Verizon Center (1997) - 19,200
BankAtlantic Center (1998) - 19,250
Pepsi center (1999) - 18,000
Air Canada Center (1999) - 18,800
Staples Center (1999) - 18,100
America Airlines Center (2001) - 18,500
Jobing.com Arena (2003) - 17,800

Add to this the new arenas for expansion teams, all with 17K-18K+ capacities.

Just because more fans can get tickets in Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Philly, Colorado, Dallas, etc - this has what to do with attendance in Phoenix or Winnipeg?

 

[saskganesh]

attendence is just a very rough yardstick for revenue, which is why it is always brought up. of course, revenues (and ticket prices) vary. really we should be looking at gate $ grosses.

I imagine phoenix fans pay more than winnipeg fans did.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

actually i'm an american who's been playing hockey since i can remember.and i appreciate hockey's past and it's heritage. and guess what ,that heritage is MOSTLY Canadian. p.s how many rinks in phoenix?

There's plenty of rinks to play on here, thanks for inquiring.

 

[razorsedge]

There's plenty of rinks to play on here, thanks for inquiring.

LOL

Arizona: http://www.arenamaps.com/arenas/Arizona.htm

Manitoba: http://www.arenamaps.com/arenas/Manitoba.htm

 

[Ogopogo*]

I remember hearing somewhere that Bettman fought to keep the Jets in Winnipeg and something about him putting a huge fee if they were sold to someone who was going to move them. Does anyone know any details on if Bettman did try and save the Jets and if so, what did he do?

I remember that he had a bake sale, car wash and bottle drive but just couldn't put together quite enough.

Bettman doesn't want any team to move. He did his part to save the Oilers, Flames and Senators. He is a good egg in my book.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

What i'm saying is, that the average attendance in winnipeg would have increased with the League average the same as phoenix's did.

This is as nonsensical as the "theres a correlation between number of rinks and the viability of an NHL franchise" argument. Explain as to why it is a safe assumption that Winnipeg's attendance would have increased along with the league average when this did not occur the first time around?

 

[vivianmb]

There's plenty of rinks to play on here, thanks for inquiring.

if THAT is plenty of rinks, then i guess not too many people in arizona play hockey. check the post after your last one for rink listings.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

if THAT is plenty of rinks, then i guess not too many people in arizona play hockey. check the post after your last one for rink listings.

I believe that all of the rinks listed are full, modern complexes, each with a multitude of different ice-related activities. Most of those rinks provide several different leagues for all levels and ages to play hockey. Suffice to say, one in the Phoenix metro area has plenty of close by choices to make, it isn't difficult to find places to play hockey. In fact, due to the increasing demand plus the exponential growth of the state, there are several more of these complexes currently under construction. Just because we can't skate on our pools during the winter doesn't mean that there's no place to play. But once again, I fail to see what correlation there is to the number of rinks and the viability of a NHL franchise.

 

[Trizent]

I remember that he had a bake sale, car wash and bottle drive but just couldn't put together quite enough.

Bettman doesn't want any team to move. He did his part to save the Oilers, Flames and Senators. He is a good egg in my book.

Agree 100%. Canadian $ equalization payments of $3.5M per year were great for an 8-10 year period.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

I dont think Pittsburgh deserves the team. Their municipal and state govt have done jack all to help the Penguins stay and have dragged their feet for the better part of a decade on Lemieux's new arena. No matter how much the fans support the team they'll still get screwed in the future.

 

[AdmiralPred]

I dont think Pittsburgh deserves the team. Their municipal and state govt have done jack all to help the Penguins stay and have dragged their feet for the better part of a decade on Lemieux's new arena. No matter how much the fans support the team they'll still get screwed in the future.

I think your reasoning in support of your opinion is flawed. Why should the burden of "deseving a team" be placed on the government? In particular, a government that has "dragged their feet...on Lemieux's new arena"?

*CUT*..Just because we can't skate on our pools during the winter doesn't mean that there's no place to play. But once again, I fail to see what correlation there is to the number of rinks and the viability of a NHL franchise.

You're kidding me? This is the backbone argument of the ignorant, intolerant, northern latitude hockey-snob. It doesn't snow in Phoenix therefore how can you have hockey? Flagstaff on the other hand....

 

[hexrae]

But once again, I fail to see what correlation there is to the number of rinks and the viability of a NHL franchise.

It's related to how exceptional skating ability allows for quality posts.

While I have fond memories at Winnipeg Arena, I understand that it had many shortcomings when considering NHL standards. Compound that with the fact that the team received only portions of the revenue streams available (and in some cases none at all). Regardless, it's gone now and never existed.

Now the new MTS Centre is too small...for the NHL. Not enough seats, club seats or luxury boxes...for the NHL. If an NHL team were ever to return, I don't doubt that Winnipeg can fill it up because it's not too small...for Winnipeg. FYI, Moose attendance figures mean dick all because we're not going to get 15,000 to watch AHL hockey.

Now, can a packed arena provide enough revenue? Is there enough corporate support? Will the crowds continue as the years roll on? No one knows for sure. I'd like to see a market feasibility study done. At least that way we'd all have a better idea of what the hell we're talking about.

 

[brianguy]

Comparing a teams attendance to "league average attendance" in absolute numbers is a meaningless excercise.

The increase in league average attendance was due to the opening of new and larger arenas starting in the mid 90's, replacing older, smaller venues.

HP Pavilion (1993) - 17,400
United Center (1994) - 20,100
ScottTrade Center (1994) - 19,000
GM Place (1995) - 18,600
TD Banknorth Garden (1995) - 17,600
Scotiabank Place (1996) - 19,100
Bell Center (1996) - 21,200
HSBC Arena (1996) - 18,700
Wachovia Center (1996) - 19,500
Verizon Center (1997) - 19,200
BankAtlantic Center (1998) - 19,250
Pepsi center (1999) - 18,000
Air Canada Center (1999) - 18,800
Staples Center (1999) - 18,100
America Airlines Center (2001) - 18,500
Jobing.com Arena (2003) - 17,800

Add to this the new arenas for expansion teams, all with 17K-18K+ capacities.

Just because more fans can get tickets in Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Philly, Colorado, Dallas, etc - this has what to do with attendance in Phoenix or Winnipeg?

u forgot the Arrowhead Pond (1993). now, whatever the hell it's called...

 

[blamebettman*]

Oh, please explain

ok then, go to a game, see a crowd of 9,000 be announced as 13,000+. Phoenix is king of inflating attendance, worse than Carolina and Nashville (who's being rumored for KC as well)

 

[jamiebez]

Now, can a packed arena provide enough revenue? Is there enough corporate support? Will the crowds continue as the years roll on? No one knows for sure. I'd like to see a market feasibility study done. At least that way we'd all have a better idea of what the hell we're talking about.

Well said.

 

[KeydGV21]

I believe that all of the rinks listed are full, modern complexes, each with a multitude of different ice-related activities. Most of those rinks provide several different leagues for all levels and ages to play hockey. Suffice to say, one in the Phoenix metro area has plenty of close by choices to make, it isn't difficult to find places to play hockey. In fact, due to the increasing demand plus the exponential growth of the state, there are several more of these complexes currently under construction. Just because we can't skate on our pools during the winter doesn't mean that there's no place to play. But once again, I fail to see what correlation there is to the number of rinks and the viability of a NHL franchise.

The general argument in why hockey hasn't caught on in a lot of traditional markets is because it's kids haven't grown up playing the game like they have up north (this is an argument usually given by people SUPPORTING non traditional markets). The lack of ice rinks makes it hard for kids to grow up playing hockey, resulting in the belief that they'd be less inclined to play hockey.

I'm not sure how valid of an argument it is that non traditional markets issues stem with not growing up playing hockey, but it's one that's put forth enough (again almost always by supporters of hockey in non traditional markets) to make it absurd for you to think that there it isn't at least a part of Phoenix's issues (attendance anyways). I think the bigger issue is a lack of exposure to hockey, which my guess is in a lot of these markets wasn't all that much until about 15 years ago so for a large part of the fan base hockey isn't a sport they grew up loving and as such never made the commitment to. There's exceptions of course, but I know the Panthers are working hard to grow youth hockey in the Miami area in an effort to grow the fan base.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

ok then, go to a game, see a crowd of 9,000 be announced as 13,000+. Phoenix is king of inflating attendance, worse than Carolina and Nashville (who's being rumored for KC as well)

What proof of this do you have?

 

[Gee Wally]

I removed some posts...I expect a civil discussion from here on in.

 

[KrisKing*]

Proof of common knowledge. Pick up a newspaper. Oh wait, the papers in Arizona don't make mention of hockey.

Seriously, arguing with Coyotes fans about the viability of the coyotes versus the Jets is a pointless exercise. They will obviously defend their team, and put down winnipeg as much as they can, and they don't know any better. They've never been to winnipeg, and when winnipeg had the Jets they didn't know what hockey was.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Proof of common knowledge. Pick up a newspaper. Oh wait, the papers in Arizona don't make mention of hockey.

Seriously, arguing with Coyotes fans about the viability of the coyotes versus the Jets is a pointless exercise. They will obviously defend their team, and put down winnipeg as much as they can, and they don't know any better. They've never been to winnipeg, and when winnipeg had the Jets they didn't know what hockey was.

Conversely, have the Winnipegers been to Phoenix? How would they know the real story down south?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

ok then, go to a game, see a crowd of 9,000 be announced as 13,000+. Phoenix is king of inflating attendance, worse than Carolina and Nashville (who's being rumored for KC as well)

The reported attendance is the number of tickets sold; it hasn't been the physical number in attendance for years.

 

[Burnside_1]

Not bankrupt, but losing a good chunk of money each year. Small, old buildings plus really low Canadian dollar really hurt things.

The nordiques were profitable. Aubut said the opposite and when town and government officials asked to see his accounts he never wanted to show it to them. Then he moved the team saying no one wanted to keep the team around.

 

[jamiebez]

The reported attendance is the number of tickets sold; it hasn't been the physical number in attendance for years.

To be even more nit-picky, it's actually the number "no longer available for sale". Every team gives away some tickets to charities, employees, visiting teams, etc.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Now, can a packed arena provide enough revenue? Is there enough corporate support? Will the crowds continue as the years roll on? No one knows for sure. I'd like to see a market feasibility study done. At least that way we'd all have a better idea of what the hell we're talking about.

To really be honest, the packed arena revenue will rarely ever eclipse the corporate support in most areas. This is significantly more important than people realize when discussing issues like this. I'll go into more detail below...

ok then, go to a game, see a crowd of 9,000 be announced as 13,000+. Phoenix is king of inflating attendance, worse than Carolina and Nashville (who's being rumored for KC as well)

I said above, the attendance really isn't as important as the corporate support. Inflating attendance actually will help out the corporate support so as a business practice, its extremely smart. I've been to games at the BankAtlantic Center and everything that possibly could be sponsored is being sponsored (Panther fans can attest to this, even if it is something they despise). Those corporate dollars really keep that franchise in better financial shape than any attendance revenue could. Who buys the luxury boxes in most markets? The average fans or the corporations that can afford it so they have some place to entertain prospective clients/VIPs? Also, the number of seats available in a luxury boxes versus the number of seats actually filled is almost never equal but that doesn't change the price of the box. I'm sure the newer Phoenix arena has quite a significant amount of luxury boxes as well (though I can't speak from experience...many some in the area could).

Bettman and the league probably realized this many years ago that corporate support and arenas with large numbers of luxury boxes will mean a better financial future for the league. Teams with large fan bases or dedicated fan bases to hockey...does that really mean anything other than to the fans??

 

[Pens75]

I dont think Pittsburgh deserves the team. Their municipal and state govt have done jack all to help the Penguins stay and have dragged their feet for the better part of a decade on Lemieux's new arena. No matter how much the fans support the team they'll still get screwed in the future.

Yes... lets punish the people of Pittsburgh, and the entire NHL for that matter, due to government incompetence.

Beautiful logic.