Devon Toews is underpaid

[a mangy Meowth]

He was a #4/5 in NYI when Sakic traded for him. An absolute overpayment relative to every other transaction this summer. Just like Josh Anderson's contract stood the hell out compared to everyone else.

Also good as Toews has looked for the Avs can't help but wonder how Schmidt or Tanev would look there and how he'd look on one of their teams if roles were reversed for instance. Toews was decent but nothing special in New York after all. And Justin Schultz is having a better season than most of those players as well even if he's clearly inferior to them

I really don't get your schtick. You honestly think anyone gives a shit what you personally think of Sakic's moves? The team just took over 1st place, people think most of his moves are genius, and it doesn't really matter what the relative value of those moves actually are - you realize that right?

 

[PAZ]

He was a #4/5 in NYI when Sakic traded for him. An absolute overpayment relative to every other transaction this summer. Just like Josh Anderson's contract stood the hell out compared to everyone else.

Also good as Toews has looked for the Avs can't help but wonder how Schmidt or Tanev would look there and how he'd look on one of their teams if roles were reversed for instance. Toews was decent but nothing special in New York after all. And Justin Schultz is having a better season than most of those players as well even if he's clearly inferior to them

I don't think you understand why the Avs are so good. It's because they acquired good players that fit their system, not simply good players. Burakovsky was an overpayment at the time and half of Washington fans were saying he was a bust. He ended up going PPG+ in last years playoffs and he's easily worth more than what we paid for him now.

Toews averaged 20 minutes with the Islanders, he may have been 3rd/4th in their depth chart in Trotz's system but that isn't the case with the Avs. He's been one of our most consistent defenders and he plays in all situations. If you want to compare it to every other transaction in the summer, go ahead. But I guarantee Toews will still be a top pairing defenseman on the Avs 4 years from now when his contract is up at the age of 32. You can't say the same for Tanev or Schmidt.

But you're right, I wish Sakic would've given up a 2nd + 3rd for Dillon, who is signed for 200k less to play 17 minutes a night. Much better to have paid fair value for an inferior player rather than 'overpaid' for Toews.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

I really don't get your schtick. You honestly think anyone gives a shit what you personally think of Sakic's moves? The team just took over 1st place, people think most of his moves are genius, and it doesn't really matter what the relative value of those moves actually are - you realize that right?

Yes, people here have the attention span of a goldfish and are looking to anoint Sakic King of GMs after uniformly dumping on him a couple years ago, even though the amount of times he's gone past the 2nd round of the playoffs remains the same.

I'm just pointing out that at the time the Toews trade stood out as a major overpayment in a super deprecated market whether it worked out or not.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

I don't think you understand why the Avs are so good. It's because they acquired good players that fit their system, not simply good players. Burakovsky was an overpayment at the time and half of Washington fans were saying he was a bust. He ended up going PPG+ in last years playoffs and he's easily worth more than what we paid for him now.

Toews averaged 20 minutes with the Islanders, he may have been 3rd/4th in their depth chart in Trotz's system but that isn't the case with the Avs. He's been one of our most consistent defenders and he plays in all situations. If you want to compare it to every other transaction in the summer, go ahead. But I guarantee Toews will still be a top pairing defenseman on the Avs 4 years from now when his contract is up at the age of 32. You can't say the same for Tanev or Schmidt.

But you're right, I wish Sakic would've given up a 2nd + 3rd for Dillon, who is signed for 200k less to play 17 minutes a night. Much better to have paid fair value for an inferior player rather than 'overpaid' for Toews.

Gee I wonder if anything happened between February 2021 and October 2021 that may have drastically altered what NHL players were going for.

But yeah, good thing Sakic paid 2 2nds for a defenseman to play on his top pair while stupid MacLellan paid a 2nd and a 3rd for a defenseman to play on the top pair of his 2nd in the NHL team for less money and get an extra playoff run out of him. SaKiC tRuLy GoAt Gm.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Sakic let his top centre leave for UFA (statsny)

Sakic traded his next top centre for TJ Compher and Zadorov. Zadorov got traded for a middle 6 forward rental.

Sakic traded his next top centre for a draft pick from Ottawa which was a team that had just almost gotten to the finals and a #6 defender on Nashville.

Sakic always loses value but lucks into enough wins that people think he's a genius.

Some teams like Nashville and Calgary spent two decades looking for a good C and Sakic threw away three of them in about 5 years.

 

[Sempiternal]

Amazing thread from OP. Still going 2 weeks later.

 

[PAZ]

Gee I wonder if anything happened between February 2021 and October 2021 that may have drastically altered what NHL players were going for.

But yeah, good thing Sakic paid 2 2nds for a defenseman to play on his top pair while stupid MacLellan paid a 2nd and a 3rd for a defenseman to play on the top pair of his 2nd in the NHL team for less money and get an extra playoff run out of him. SaKiC tRuLy GoAt Gm.

TIL a player averaging 19 minutes a game with 10 pts/35 games is a top pairing defenseman.

 

[Asinine]

Sakic throws away #1 centers in the face of Nashville and Calgary and still ices a better team than both of them 5 years later.

That's how dominant Sakic is as a GM.
The guy transcends general managing. He could generally manage his own snow blower company and single handedly keep more public parking lots in Denver clear than the cities winter maintenance crew.

He drives luxury cars and he wins the slots every Friday night he hits it up with his boys while wearing his Stanley Cup rings.

He doesn't lose deals and he drives big wheels.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

TIL a player averaging 19 minutes a game with 10 pts/35 games is a top pairing defenseman.

TIL the guy who plays a physical defensive role on the top pair of the 2nd team in the league sucks

 

[Little Psycho]

Jonathan Toews can lend him some. Problem solved.

 

[PAZ]

TIL the guy who plays a physical defensive role on the top pair of the 2nd team in the league sucks

Lol, I like how you have to pretend like I said Dillon sucks. Anyways, I can't but help wonder how much better Tanev or Schmidt would look in Washington and how Dillon would look on one of their teams if roles were reversed for instance. Dillon was decent but nothing special in San Jose after all. And Justin Schultz is having a better season than most of those players as well even if he's clearly inferior to them.

 

[Tommy Shelby]

Why are there always butthurt fans in Avs threads rambling about how a player on their team is also good or better somehow than the Av being discussed?

 

[Kuznetsnow]

Lol, I like how you have to pretend like I said Dillon sucks. Anyways, I can't but help wonder how much better Tanev or Schmidt would look in Washington and how Dillon would look on one of their teams if roles were reversed for instance. Dillon was decent but nothing special in San Jose after all. And Justin Schultz is having a better season than most of those players as well even if he's clearly inferior to them.

Tanev or Schmidt weren't available in the February of 2020. Dillon was. So was Pageau. Maybe if Sakic paid up to bolster his team then Colorado would have had more to show for it than just getting past the Phoenix Coyotes.

Justin Schultz is what Toews level defensemen were going for this offseason to everyone except Sakic.

I like how you have to pretend trading for Brenden Dillon for a pre Covid playoff run and trading for Devon Toews in an offseason where Mike Hoffman had to sign a one year deal is the same.

 

[PAZ]

Tanev or Schmidt weren't available in the February of 2020. Dillon was. So was Pageau. Maybe if Sakic paid up to bolster his team then Colorado would have had more to show for it than just getting past the Phoenix Coyotes.

Justin Schultz is what Toews level defensemen were going for this offseason to everyone except Sakic.

I like how you have to pretend trading for Brenden Dillon for a pre Covid playoff run and trading for Devon Toews in an offseason where Mike Hoffman had to sign a one year deal is the same.

The Washington Capitals signed Brendan Dillon in October 2020.
The Calgary Flames signed Chris Tanev in October 2020.
The Vancouver Canucks traded for Nate Schmidt in October 2020.

But ya, Washington had no other option but to sign Dillon. Definitely wish we paid up to get bounced by the New York Islanders in the 1st round.

 

[Kuznetsnow]

The Washington Capitals signed Brendan Dillon in October 2020.
The Calgary Flames signed Chris Tanev in October 2020.
The Vancouver Canucks traded for Nate Schmidt in October 2020.

But ya, Washington had no other option but to sign Dillon. Definitely wish we paid up to get bounced by the New York Islanders in the 1st round.

The Washington Capitals needed an LD and signed a physical one who can play on their top pair for under 4 million that they were already familiar with for less than any of those players. Between Dillon, Schultz and Chara they signed 3 top 4 defensemen for under 9 million without giving up any picks to "senile Lou" or anyone else let alone 2 2nds.

I suppose getting bounced by a one and done team in what should have been a cakewalk to the wcf is better than being bounced by a consistently good team and responding by shedding your shit coach for a real one.

 

[22FUTON9]

The Washington Capitals needed an LD and signed a physical one who can play on their top pair for under 4 million that they were already familiar with for less than any of those players. Between Dillon, Schultz and Chara they signed 3 top 4 defensemen for under 9 million without giving up any picks to "senile Lou" or anyone else let alone 2 2nds.

I suppose getting bounced by a one and done team in what should have been a cakewalk to the wcf is better than being bounced by a consistently good team and responding by shedding your shit coach for a real one.

Don’t you just get tired of hating on the avs? I’ve probably seen you in most all avs related threads, spitting out the same notion over and over. No matter how you put it, getting a young top pairing defensemen with term for a couple second round picks is great value. His underlined numbers were great and most people realized how this was a great fit the moment the trade was announced. I’m not sure why that’s so hard to accept.
Yeah Chara and co. are nice but most of them were FA signings and are all nowhere near as good as Toews this year. You also bring up Schmidt over and over but completely ignore the fact that he’s almost 3 years older and basically makes 6 million per season for the next 5 years. There’s also no way vegas trades an established player to the team that many consider to be their main rival, for the next few years.

I also find it pretty ironic how you, keep on taking jabs towards the second round exit, considering how the caps took forever to get past the second round, and trust me, those losses were a lot more ugly compared to how the avs lost last year. You do realize we were this close to beating the stars despite half of our players being injured and without our backup and starter right?
It also has nothing to do what so ever with Devon Toews so I’m not sure why you’re even bringing it up in the first place.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Sakic as the GM when Roy was around sucked. After that he built the Avs from a 48 point garbage team into a powerhouse in 4 years, with the only notable prospect in the system being Tyson Jost. Kinda amazing that anyone would think he isn't that good.

 

[McCombo]

He was a #4/5 in NYI when Sakic traded for him. An absolute overpayment relative to every other transaction this summer. Just like Josh Anderson's contract stood the hell out compared to everyone else.

Also good as Toews has looked for the Avs can't help but wonder how Schmidt or Tanev would look there and how he'd look on one of their teams if roles were reversed for instance. Toews was decent but nothing special in New York after all. And Justin Schultz is having a better season than most of those players as well even if he's clearly inferior to them

4/5 maybe for eye-test group, but for people who value analytics, like Sakic he was a low-end top pair guy.

This quote is from The Athletic and Colorado's season preview:

"He’s not the flashiest name to most fans, but he carries a lot of value. Colorado clearly sees that by starting him on the top pair with Makar on what might be one of the league’s smoothest pairs. Toews comes in valued at 1.5 wins, the second-most on the team among defenders, and it’s because of how much he influences the game at five-on-five. He was the Islanders’ best play-driver from the back-end and does everything very well, from exiting the zone to joining the rush, to defending his line. He suppresses chances just as well as he creates chances the other way and is a strong puck distributor in the offensive zone too. With Makar on the right and this team’s deep stable of forwards, that can make for some incredible offensive zone sequences with lots of possession time."

It was a under-payment at the time already. And really shows what kind of power analytics can have. Educate your hockey knowledge.

 

[topshelf15]

What are they actually missing as a team??Maybe goaltending??Other than that I cant really find any holes...Such a good team

 

[flyfysher]

Toews is a guy who I believe benefited greatly by being brought along in the Islander system, learning to play strong defense. But for the long haul he's built to play in the Avs system. It stinks the Isles had to let him go, but something had to give and they were/are deep on defense. The scary thing is, I think he's still going to improve a bit as he gets more and more experience.

To hijack the thread a bit, your observation is also true on the offensive side. I would argue players like Donskoi, Burakovsky, Calvert and Nichushkin are built to play in the Avs system. It’s something not a lot of people recognize,

 

[Islay1989]

What are they actually missing as a team??Maybe goaltending??Other than that I cant really find any holes...Such a good team

Backup goaltender, Grubauer is playing as a borderline Vezina finalist, but when we are playing our backup we usually lose, we only won 2 games our backups started out of 6. And in one of those games, Grubauer had to come in after our backup let in 4 on 7 shots, and the other win was a 3-2 win where the Yotes had 18 shots on goal. You just can't count on winning games when the high mark for your backup is .875 save percentage and the average is below .85.

 

[tucker3434]

Yes, people here have the attention span of a goldfish and are looking to anoint Sakic King of GMs after uniformly dumping on him a couple years ago, even though the amount of times he's gone past the 2nd round of the playoffs remains the same.

I'm just pointing out that at the time the Toews trade stood out as a major overpayment in a super deprecated market whether it worked out or not.

Dude, all you’re telling us is that you were wrong about Toews’s value to begin with.

 

[Riseonfire]

Sakic as the GM when Roy was around sucked. After that he built the Avs from a 48 point garbage team into a powerhouse in 4 years, with the only notable prospect in the system being Tyson Jost. Kinda amazing that anyone would think he isn't that good.

I doubted Sakic the GM until Duchene finally got moved. I thought he blew it not trading him earlier and ended up with a ridiculous return.

I hope Toews wins the cup with ya'll.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I doubted Sakic the GM until Duchene finally got moved. I thought he blew it not trading him earlier and ended up with a ridiculous return.

I hope Toews wins the cup with ya'll.

Sakic and the Avs were considered a laughing stock until the Duchene trade. We all stopped laughing after that happened.

 

[M88K]

Yeah, he’ll be protected, no doubt about it.

Did/is ej going to waive his nmc or do you expect them to go 8-1? instead of 7-3-1