As in Miles Wood? 19 goals while playing 12 minutes a night and getting less PP time than Zacha last year Miles Wood? If only Zacha had as much opportunity...
Post-Game Talk: Devils' team humiliation in Tampa
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As in Miles Wood? 19 goals while playing 12 minutes a night and getting less PP time than Zacha last year Miles Wood? If only Zacha had as much opportunity...
JimEIV
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You're still talking bottom 6 no matter how you slice it. What top 6 pick starts his career in the bottom 6. For two years no less. Please. For all the excuses made for this poor ass coaching staff there are as many irrational comments made about Zacha. I am not claiming he's a superstar in shackles but you have to admit he has been handled about as poorly as poor can be... it's almost mind boggling to me that I am the only person who is really saying this....As in Miles Wood? 19 goals while playing 12 minutes a night and getting less PP time than Zacha last year Miles Wood? If only Zacha had as much opportunity...
After a solid year of Larsson playing on the top pairing getting opportunity after opportunity and just failing people still wanted to blame coaching...in this instance there is no opportunity and plenty of good play and no one sees a coaching issue.
I don't know I think ya'all nuts honestly.
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MartyOwns
thank you shero
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i know you said you didn’t watch the preseason, but zacha was dominating out there. it didn’t matter who was on his wings...he was driving play, he was physical, you noticed him on 90% of his ice time. this isn’t the first preseason he’s done it. so we know he’s capable, regardless of who he plays with. so why don’t we see that same kind of mindset/style once the games start to matter?
i agree that he has been handled poorly, but i think it’s more that he was rushed rather than his supporting cast holding him back
JimEIV
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Looking dominant against AHL competition? A full NHL squad on both sides? From the top 6 or bottom 6?
Too many variables in the preseason to make sweeping assessments. And you really don't know what a particular player is trying to accomplish in the preseason. Some guys are there to win a job, some to get their game speed back into shape, some to prove they are still capable, some to work on a certain aspects of their game... it's really glorified practice.
MartyOwns
thank you shero
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if it was just this year, i’d agree with you that you can’t draw any conclusions. but this is a consistent thing with him. and again, i want to stress that it was his play that was different, he was hungrier. it doesn’t matter who you’re playing against, if you can play a certain style in september you should be able to play the same role in october. i really think it’s in his head.
IIRC, he wasn’t putting points up in preseason either...but he was noticeable. he was fast, he was attacking, all the buzz words
At some point it's on Pavel Zacha to earn bigger minutes and responsibilties. They're not going to be handed to him simply because he's a top 10 pick. And if you're going to throw Nico in my face, you're going to lose the argument because he proved capable of being a top line forward. So far Zacha has not shown the kind of offensive production to be a top 6 forward. I hope that he does and I (and every other Zacha skeptic) end up looking like fools.
Devilsfan992
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I wish Zacha played with the passion, confidence and tenacity of Ovechkin.
9 games, 9 shots, 18 shot attempts, 0 points. Only players with less shot attempts and at least 5 games played are Zajac, Lovejoy, Mueller, and Quenneville.
9 games, 9 shots, 18 shot attempts, 0 points. Only players with less shot attempts and at least 5 games played are Zajac, Lovejoy, Mueller, and Quenneville.
JimEIV
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Tell me how Hischier earned his spot? Tell me how Larsson earned his spot on the top pairing and PP time as a rookie, tell me how Severson earned his intro on the top pairing as a rookie, tell me how Henrique earned his spot between Kovalchuk and Parise, tell me Rafalski earned his spot with Stevens as a rookie, tell me how Niedermayer earned his spot with Stevens as a rookie, tell me how Zajac ended up on the first line as a rookie, tell me how Sykora earned his spot as a top line center as a rookie, tell me how Kevin Todd earned spot as a top line center as a rookie... I can probably find another dozen examples, those are just from memory...
You give good prospects the best opportunity to succeed...period. Zacha was NEVER given that opportunity. That is not debatable.
Because you have delusions about what a player should earn versus what he should be given. Yes, Zacha played a lot with Noesen and Wood. These players have also produced at a 3rd line level as Devils. The next two forwards he played the most with are Kyle Palmieri and Taylor Hall, 2/3rds of the Devils top line. This season he's been put with Marcus Johansson, a player who was in Washington's top 9 always. The Devils' aim is not to make sure that Pavel Zacha puts up points so that he can silence his critics on HF. It's to win games.
Revisionist history and I'm not a Larsson guy by any means. There is not 'plenty of good play' by Zacha. He's played adequately. He's not making a large impact out there. 9 shots in 9 games isn't enough. He deserves more than 0 points, but more than 2 or 3, I don't really think so.
Larsson did not have a spot on the top pairing initially. He earned that and had a really good 30 game stretch where he was playing huge minutes decently until he got hurt. His spot on the PP was not earned and was a giant disaster.
Hischier was not playing with Hall initially. That happened after Zacha wasn't cutting it there.
Crushed it right away.
Injuries, but he played well and stuck there.
Earned it.
He didn't.
Earned it. The Devils didn't just leave him there for next 5 seasons. They demoted him to the minors for most of the next season and he wasn't a full-time player until 98-99.
Absolutely it is debatable. He started with Hall both of the previous seasons, or at least had opportunities with him. He couldn't stay there. He had an opportunity with Johansson, it hasn't really worked out. They're giving him chances. He's not able to do enough with them.
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JimEIV
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Pure nonsense.
The Devils job is absolutely to insure a 19 year old #6 overall has the absolute best opportunity to succeed. Talk about revisionist history, you want look at the last 9 games this season and dismiss the abuse of the first two seasons. You want to talk about 262 minutes with Hall over 3 seasons and dismiss his partners for good portion of his first season were Bennet and Josefson and if the two soft ass glass players could stay healthy theyd probably be his most common partners
Stop it already. He has been poorly managed, in fact one of the worst instances of player management I have ever seen here in New Jersey. Sure, he maybe just average player who happen to be taken high like Larsson but he was never given the opportunity to succeed like other players of his pedigree and that simply isn't debatable.
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Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
His style of play was completely different. Hell it has been different since game 1. You were most likely correct in stating that getting stoned like he did in game 1 messed with him. He has been playing a lot more timid since then.
That isn’t to say he has been useless dog shit like some people want to argue, or that he is the reason somehow we lost a game 8-3 last night (which is a super silly take).
He absolutely can be a more active participant in his own success though. Specifically he needs to shoot more. It’s one of the things holding him back.
I think the argument his current lack of success falls completely on the lap of coaching doesn’t ring true.
It's to win games. Hischier and Hall have been a dominant combination. The Devils made the playoffs by 1 point last year.
At some point a forward in the top 9 has to help his team win games with offense. By this logic, Zacha is ruined because he played with Josefson and Bennett for a quarter of a season. How many NHL stars do you think have played with terrible linemates year 1? Plus Josefson and Bennett play with NHL structure, something which Zacha needed.
Because you don't seem capable of accepting the fact that he's gotten big opportunities with top players - that his 3rd most common linemate is Kyle Palmieri and his 4th most is Taylor Hall. He just has not come through with them yet. He's not at that level. He might never get there. The Devils shouldn't give up on Pavel Zacha, but they're not being rewarded much for the faith they've shown in him so far. He's definitely an NHL player, but he has to show more shift by shift.
Zacha doesn't need to shoot more. He needs to get more opportunities to shoot. It's not like he's getting all these big opportunities and passing. He's just not in the scoring area with the puck enough.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
I see little value in “shot attempts” when those attempts are soft biscuits from bad angles destined to go 3 feet wide of the net.
Actual eyeballs watching the game last night showed you Nojo put nothing meaningful towards the net. In fairness neither did Zacha, but this idea that Nojo was playing well and carrying his line is absurd. It hasn’t happened in this game, it hasn’t happened in any game. He isn’t playing well and his pedigree people keep citing is all the more reason to be harder on him. He should be producing but now we are in year 2 and it still isn’t happening. He isn’t a kid who still needs to learn parts of the game.
It’s always been the biggest failing of Cordell. He throws these stats out there with zero context and it’s why he falls in love with players like Bennet who actually don’t do shit outside of his spreadsheets. There is very little reason to believe he ever pays close attention to what is happening on the ice outside of logging stats into said spreadsheets. If he is even doing that and not just pulling them from other websites. He isn’t someone worth taking seriously.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
God, if only you know how this sounds. The guy watched the game so much closer than you, such that he actually personally recorded the events of the game. 'This guy who watches the game real close isn't watching it at all. I'm the one who knows stuff because I didn't write anything down. He was too busy watching the game and writing stuff down about the game to watch the game.'
I guess I need a disclaimer that I am not him nor do I even follow him on Twitter - I read his column when I remember to do so. But this is laughable stuff. Yes, numbers can lie. But eyes and memory are going to lie so much more often. The fact that you can't even remember one meaningful shot attempt by Johansson last night is enough for me to say - yep, you don't recall the game.
theoptimist
Trade Siegenthaler
Complain about "shot attempts" all you want, at least MoJo is attempting to put the puck at the net. Zacha has 4 shots in the last 7 games. Unless you're like an Adam Oates level playmaker, you're probably not going to put up many points that way.
And I'm not giving MoJo a pass either. I think he can definitely play better, and his "softness" does annoy me sometimes. I just don't think playing with Zacha has done him (or Zacha for that matter) any favors. They're both more setup guys that need somebody else to finish.
The reason I give MoJo a little more leeway is he's had like 6 straight years playing at a 40+ point pace. I don't think he's suddenly lost the ability to produce. Whereas Zacha, while still young, has not shown much in terms of production. It's certainly still possible the offense will come, but until it does I remain skeptical. The good thing is the rest of his game is strong enough to where I don't think he's going to wash out completely. I think at worst he'll be a Zajac-lite type. Which would be disappointing for a top 10 pick, but not the end of the world.
And I'm not giving MoJo a pass either. I think he can definitely play better, and his "softness" does annoy me sometimes. I just don't think playing with Zacha has done him (or Zacha for that matter) any favors. They're both more setup guys that need somebody else to finish.
The reason I give MoJo a little more leeway is he's had like 6 straight years playing at a 40+ point pace. I don't think he's suddenly lost the ability to produce. Whereas Zacha, while still young, has not shown much in terms of production. It's certainly still possible the offense will come, but until it does I remain skeptical. The good thing is the rest of his game is strong enough to where I don't think he's going to wash out completely. I think at worst he'll be a Zajac-lite type. Which would be disappointing for a top 10 pick, but not the end of the world.
Blender
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The numbers Cordell posted don't tell you Zacha had a good or bad game, it's 1 stat. All it shows is he didn't contribute to enough shot attempts. This is the problem with advanced stats, it's not that there is anything wrong with the stats themselves, it's that people take a single stat with a specific meaning and jump to a much broader conclusion without justifying that the stat can be applied that way.
AfroThunder396
[citation needed]
Like I said in the other thread, Zacha started last year between Hall and Palmieri while Nico started between Johansson and Stafford. After five games, they both had two points. The lines got switched up, and Nico had 5 points in the next 3 games. One guy did his job and the other didn't.
Expecting the team to just *give* Zacha the #1C and let him flounder for 20 games when you have a better player waiting behind him just so you can be fair to the kid is simply an unreasonable thing to ask. He lost his spot to an 18 year old with 0 professional hockey games under his belt.
Expecting the team to just *give* Zacha the #1C and let him flounder for 20 games when you have a better player waiting behind him just so you can be fair to the kid is simply an unreasonable thing to ask. He lost his spot to an 18 year old with 0 professional hockey games under his belt.
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