Devils Team Discussion (current team/player news and notes) ‎PART XIII

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JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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Your post should be published in the Onion.

Bourque is probably top 3 D of all time at the worst top 5. Stevens is probably ~20 range.

That year the non dominate Bourque had 386 SHOTS (Stevens had 215)

It isn't even debatable that the NJD were the better team. They scored more gave up significantly less and won 4 straight playoff games against them.

Housely and Coffey are top defensemen all time too right?

I spent a lot of time the early to mid 90's watching Bourque live... Putting him over a Robinson, Park or Potvin makes me sick to my stomach when see these list.

He wasn't a dominate defenseman. He was PP quarterback and I say that in a derogatory way.

I personally think Chelios and Stevens were better defenseman...your numbers are really meaningless to me - I look at Housely or Coffey who are top 4 all time in scoring and I laugh at Dman scoring numbers when the topic of "best" comes up.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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he was not better than Lidstrom. thats a ludicrous statement IMO...

A 40 year old Bourque put up 7g 52a 59 PTS playing 26 minutes a game in 2000-01.

He lost the Norris to a 30 year old Lidstrom put up 15g 56a 71 PTS playing 28 minutes a game.

If Bourque and Lidstrom came into the league at the same age IMO Lidstrom wins maybe 2 Norris.
 

schoenfeld

2 Way Contract
Dec 10, 2006
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if i have a peak mark howe and a peak bourque on my team and we have to defend a one goal lead with a minute left in a clinching playoff game, guess who i'm putting out on the ice first.

hint: it's not the guy with his number retired by the av's for a season and a half worth of games.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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Housely and Coffey are top defensemen all time too right?

I spent a lot of time the early to mid 90's watching Bourque live... Putting him over a Robinson, Park or Potvin makes me sick to my stomach when see these list.

He wasn't a dominate defenseman. He was PP quarterback and I say that in a derogatory way.

I personally think Chelios and Stevens were better defenseman...your numbers are really meaningless to me - I look at Housely or Coffey who are top 4 all time in scoring and I laugh at Dman scoring numbers when the topic of "best" comes up.

Steven's big point years came when he played significant PP time.

Coffey is in the top 20 for sure.
 

JimEIV

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A 40 year old Bourque put up 7g 52a 59 PTS playing 26 minutes a game in 2000-01.

He lost the Norris to a 30 year old Lidstrom put up 15g 56a 71 PTS playing 28 minutes a game.

If Bourque and Lidstrom came into the league at the same age IMO Lidstrom wins maybe 2 Norris.

I seriously hope 20 years from now some kid comes along and tells you why Erik Karlsson was a better player than Duncan Keith.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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if i have a peak mark howe and a peak bourque on my team and we have to defend a one goal lead with a minute left in a clinching playoff game, guess who i'm putting out on the ice first.

hint: it's not the guy with his number retired by the av's for a season and a half worth of games.

Bourque first 17 seasons his lowest Norris rank was 4th. This was during the golden era of defenseman.

My favorite player of all time Stevens had 5 top 4 finishes in his career.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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A 40 year old Bourque put up 7g 52a 59 PTS playing 26 minutes a game in 2000-01.

He lost the Norris to a 30 year old Lidstrom put up 15g 56a 71 PTS playing 28 minutes a game.

If Bourque and Lidstrom came into the league at the same age IMO Lidstrom wins maybe 2 Norris.

Lidstrom was WORLDS better than Bourque ever was. I don't care about point totals. the league was different then.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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I seriously hope 20 years from now some kid comes along and tells you why Erik Karlsson was a better player than Duncan Keith.

Karlsson is 24 and has a Norris already. He also lost a season to a serious injury.

Keith won his first Norris at the age of 26.

I would be surprised if Karlsson does not have the better career.
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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Karlsson is 24 and has a Norris already. He also lost a season to a serious injury.

Keith won his first Norris at the age of 26.

I would be surprised if Karlsson does not have the better career.

You're definitely clueless about defensemen.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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Lidstrom was WORLDS better than Bourque ever was. I don't care about point totals. the league was different then.

I am using the same exact season. Most people that actually follow hockey seriously correctly rank Bourque ahead of Lidstrom.

Scary how people just forget eras.
 

schoenfeld

2 Way Contract
Dec 10, 2006
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I seriously hope 20 years from now some kid comes along and tells you why Erik Karlsson was a better player than Duncan Keith.

1342647041268-450x435.jpg
 

ajdevjet

we got 3
Aug 20, 2013
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In your face !
Lidstrom was WORLDS better than Bourque ever was. I don't care about point totals. the league was different then.

pump those brakes kid..."worlds better" is a stretch , Raymond Bourque is considered at least a top 10 d man of ALL TIME BY MOST OF THE HOCKEY WORLD , this place cracks me up with some of the comments written. almost better than Zach Parise being past his prime LMAO
 

ajdevjet

we got 3
Aug 20, 2013
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In your face !
I am using the same exact season. Most people that actually follow hockey seriously correctly rank Bourque ahead of Lidstrom.

Scary how people just forget eras.

selective memory to help support their own weird agendas, f-ing Ray Bourque was overrated HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA people need to get a clue
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
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pump those brakes kid..."worlds better" is a stretch , Raymond Bourque is considered at least a top 10 d man of ALL TIME BY MOST OF THE HOCKEY WORLD , this place cracks me up with some of the comments written. almost better than Zach Parise being past his prime LMAO

and Niklas Lidstrom is in the conversation for best Defenseman in NHL history.

Ray Bourque is nowhere near that.
 

Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
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I never watched Bourque play so I can't decide either way but I get the argument.

Karlsson versus Keith
Bourque versus Stevens (Bad comparable but you get the point)
Coffey versus Lidstrom

People still debate it today. Some prefer the all-around defensemen over the guy that looks flashy out there dominating the game and putting up points. However, those guys that dominate and put up points are typically shady in their own end. So it's all just a preference. They are all great in their own right, it's hard to compare them though, it really is apples and oranges.
 

tycobb

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Jun 28, 2011
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well if HF Boards tells me so, I guess it HAS to be true.

DevilMadeMe is probably my favorite poster on the board. I hope he actually comments on this "debate".

Bourque stood out against the greatest defensive era in hockey history.
 

Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
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DevilMadeMe is probably my favorite poster on the board. I hope he actually comments on this "debate".

Bourque stood out against the greatest defensive era in hockey history.

I don't get this.

To me, it seems like the 80s and 90s were full of players like Gretzky and Messier putting up 150+ points. Now the great players of today are lucky to crack 100? The defenseman that go over 50 points is a pretty big deal as well.

I can't speak since I wasn't alive back then, but was 80/90 points in the 80s and 90s equivalent to 50-60 points for defensemen today?
 

tycobb

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
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I don't get this.

To me, it seems like the 80s and 90s were full of players like Gretzky and Messier putting up 150+ points. Now the great players of today are lucky to crack 100? The defenseman that go over 50 points is a pretty big deal as well.

I can't speak since I wasn't alive back then, but was 80/90 points in the 80s and 90s equivalent to 50-60 points for defensemen today?

The difference is goalies and better systems. Scott Stevens would have multiple Norris trophies if he played his prime years in 00s.

Norris winners

10s: Keith, Subban, Karlsson, Lidstrom
00s: Keith, Chara, Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger
90s: MacInnis, Blake, Leetch, Chelios, Coffey, Bourque
80s: Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Langway, Carlyle, Wilson, Robinson
70s: Potvin, Robinson, Orr

Which group do you think is the deepest?
 

Oneiro

Registered User
Mar 28, 2013
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True greatness looks effortless.

It's not a popular opinion, but I rank Lidstrom as the greatest ever at his position for the same reason I rank Gretzky as the greatest forward:

They never had to change their approach. From day one, their game was the same. The quality of their play flatlines into a plateau, but that plateau is at the highest level possible.

Moreover, the principles of why they were great players can be taught to anybody. It's just that they internalized the basics of the sport to a level of mastery. No need for end to end rushes when you can unleash hell with a perfectly-timed pass thirty seconds ago.

I consider Lidstrom to be the most efficient, reliable player in the history of the modern game. If it were humanly possible to catalog each of his decisions on the ice, I doubt you would find a higher percentage decision-maker.

And for what it's worth: I hate the "He changed the sport" argument. Seems like a lame cop-out, even if true.
 
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