Devils ownership discussion thread (mod note: post #17)
- Thread starter Camille the Eel
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The Devils won the Draft lottery they were slated to draft 7th. By one token, that is an argument against tanking - as it proves anyone can win that lottery and thats fair. By another token, its scary to think where the Devils would be if their path of mediocre but not bad enough finishes continued and their draft picks in those 3 years had gone 6-11-7 instead of 6-11-1 as it did.
Devilsfan992
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- Apr 14, 2012
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The Devils are willing to spend .. however they're not going to waste their money on replacement level players. That's how a business works. You look at the ROI an asset can bring to a company and you assess if there are cheaper assets who can bring in similar value; in our case guys like Nico, Bratt, Coleman and Butcher all are examples of this. Now we will see if McCleod, Quenneville and Anderson can be that this year.
If you don't think the owners are willing to spend on a superstar like Hall, you're nuts. They would lose more longterm by not signing him as ticket and jersey sales would plummet plus extra revenue from playoff appearances.
As others said he pushed for JVR and Karlsson was never being traded here so that's a moot point.
If you don't think the owners are willing to spend on a superstar like Hall, you're nuts. They would lose more longterm by not signing him as ticket and jersey sales would plummet plus extra revenue from playoff appearances.
As others said he pushed for JVR and Karlsson was never being traded here so that's a moot point.
- May 1, 2011
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You should be happy with our mediocre draft positions during those years.
If we had drafted higher, we'd eventually lose all those players anyway, since ownership wouldn't spend to keep them around after a few years.
I get what you are saying. But I'm not sure that the correct efficiency has presented itself. In a zero sum cap limited world the future is almost always more important than today for a team that is a playoff bubble team. I don't see a contract for a UFA that I'd consider a good one. JT went for market value. Any discount is minimal. I wouldn't want Kane or Moore at the prices they commanded. There isn't any efficiency. Those players are going to be clogging up their team's lineups and caps in a couple of years most likely. The only truly worthwhile contracts in the NHL are second ones and you only get those by drafting them. If the team doesn't pay Hall I'm sure a number of folks will have to revisit this, but I still think it's too early to say one way or another. As a playoff bubble team I'd rather be a floor team than Detroit.
This is silly way to make a point. Toronto will be giving big contracts to at least Nylander, Matthews and Marner, and perhaps even someone who surprises like Kapanen, if he breaks out like some Leafs fans are hoping. And Matthews will be getting something very close to McDavid money, perhaps even more if there's the threat of an offer sheet. They will be at the cap soon enough without adding anyone.
If the Devils are even close to being a cap team based on what they have now, and even when Hall gets his extension, it means that Nico is a superstar, Zacha is a 75 point player, Mirco Mueller has turned a corner in a major way, Butcher is a 50 point defenseman who's good in the defensive end, and Johanssen and Bratt are 60 point players. That's a team that's a lock for the conference finals either this season or the one after.
Otherwise, yes, it's silly to still believe that Shero has some internal cap or that he should "do something" because the team has cap space.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Ray said in his interview he does not think free agency brings good value. He has a low opinion on how well July 1st signings work out compared to cost.
He also said he sees his July 1st moves as moves like the trade for Vats, or Mojo.
He also said he sees his July 1st moves as moves like the trade for Vats, or Mojo.
I've consistently stated that the Devils ownership will offer Hall a market value contract. They have to. I broke down my view of the cap picture both now and years into the future (if it hasn't been deleted) twice yesterday in team discussion board and included Hall's projected $11m contract. I'm hopeful Hall takes it with no evidence that significant money is being spent around him at this point.
It's not silly. The Devils and Leafs are in very similar situations where they have a lot of young talent that is cheap. Indeed, the Leafs' talent is cheaper - they have room for an $11M Tavares and $5.3M Horton and they're still well below the cap and they will be even after Nylander signs. The Devils have room for another big contract beyond what they already have. But they have way less room for error than some here think.
The Devils, as you know have had ample experience losing star players under previous ownership groups - moreso than any other franchise in the history of the NHL.
While this would be a concern of mine, it would be a good problem to have. Of course, you can still draft well even in a mediocre position, as players like Zach Werenski, Charlie McAvoy have been drafted in the spots around where the Devils have drafted, but you are correct that is not a concern at this point for the team.
Paying Hall is not as easy as just sliding $11m across the table. The Islanders offered Tavares the same amount of money the Leafs did - if not more - I dont even remember the particulars of that and am too lazy to look it up. Tavares did not leave the Island because of money. Zach Parise did not leave the Devils because of money. Scott Niedermayer etc. The Devils I highly doubt will be outbid in cash or years for Taylor Hall. I woudl be very surprised. I think the fan revolt would be jarring and not as explainable as their current "well, cap, value etc" spiels. But Hall has to believe the team is going to not just be good but good enough to win the Cup and that the franchise will dig in and push it. Hopefully he does.
EDIT: Re: Parise: While most accept that the lure of home was the thing with Parise, speculation is significant that the uncertainty surrounding Devils ownership was also a factor in Parise's exit. Point being - the cash was there in the contract offer from the team, but Parise had to ask himself.. ok but if i sign this, even if i get paid, what will be around me here if this guy cant pay his bills?
Clearly these guys can pay their bills. But will Hall want to see evidence that they will bring him help before committing the rest of his career?
Zajacs Bowl Cut
Lets Go Baby
I've said this like 100 times this summer, but worrying about Hall leaving, right now at this moment, is just complaining just to complain. Literally EVERY SINGLE THING, from his comments, to the GM/ownerships's comments, to the team being on the upswing, to the amount of cap space we have, etc. point to him staying. There literally isn't one thing to suggest that he will leave. None. I'm getting sick of this "conjecture" (mostly by you, but a few others are included in there as well).
Talking about the cap space the Leafs will have this year is irrelevant, especially as a comparison to the Devils. It is a certainty that it won't be the case come next year, which is really what everyone had in mind when they signed Tavares. As it stands now, if the Devils stick with what they have and maybe do a trade for a Neidereiter type player, cap space will never be an issue unless things go really, really well with pretty much all of the younger players that will be up for new deals.
But yes, it's obvious that the Devils could go out and get someone for Tavares money if the situation presented itself, but that would be it, and you best be careful in not doling out that much coin for the guy who just happens to be the best player in the UFA class in particular year (Matt Duchene, for example). And people who think that ownership is putting the brakes on Shero going out and getting an elite talent for financial reasons are plain deluded and there's no sense even talking to them.
If NJ traded for EK and he left at the end of the year that would harm more than help with respect to re-signing Hall. Same for any other soon to be UFA the team landed.
At the end of the day, Hall will either agree with Shero’s vision of the team or not. He’d be signing an 8 year deal with one year on his current deal if he extends this summer. If the team was competitive for say 7 of those 9 years Hall would probably be fine with that. It just so happens that the best years for NJ are still to come.
I want Hall to extend and stay with NJ. But I don’t want to make short term decisions to try to convince him to stay. If he can’t see the wisdom of drafting and developing a team for long term success then he can take his pajamas like JT and go somewhere else. Only difference is if trade him the minute he waffles on extending. I’d negotiate bonuses and loading but once that’s done if he says he needs to think about it I give him a month and then a sit down and if he can’t say precisely what he needs to sign in NJ then he isn’t signing. At that point I trade him For whatever the best offer is. If it’s a good young player and a low first so be it. Either way there is fan backlash and I’d rather say he wasn’t sticking around and the team had to move on than go the JT route.
I don’t see any deal NJ could make in the past year to truly move the needle over the long haul that Hall would even care about. I don’t see it as an ownership issue more of a Shero issue. The Pens won because they drafted CROSBY and Malkin and those two didn’t extend in PIT because the team traded for Kessel (in my view).
Again I’m not dismissing your position. It’s a valid concern but there is only so much a team can do for any one player. I’m a NJ fan and will be long after Hall retires assuming I’m still alive by then. I’ve been a NJ fan for a long time already. Hall is only part of the journey even if he extends with the team.
NJDevs26
Once upon a time...
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I've never gotten a satisfactory answer as to why if we're so sure there's an onerous internal cap, that Shero would have come here in the first place, to arguably the worst talent base in the league with his hands tied. He won a Cup with the Pens, surely he could get much better jobs than this if he was going to have his hands tied with a $50 million payroll. Rutherford after one fluke Cup win and fifteen years of mostly mediocrity at best in Carolina, got a primo job replacing Shero in Pittsburgh off a firing.
The owners lied to him and now he's stuck here. See, the owners wanted to wind down the asset first, but they didn't tell Lou and Shero that. Now that it's finished winding down, Shero got the bad news. He didn't know about wound down assets.
- May 1, 2011
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Haha
I actually thought this was a serious post, until I saw who posted it.
Sadly, there is a small (but vocal) couple of posters who would actually post something like this while being complete serious.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
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I asked this too and remember getting a reply that Shero took the job because if he failed, he'd have the ''Internal cap/cheap owners'' excuse to fall back on. And if he succeeded or even had moderate success, he'd look even better because of the fact that he had limited resources and cheap owners, when he goes to get a new job after this one ends and it will look very good on his resume.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
That is so convoluted. Why not just wait and take the Toronto job, or the inevitable Isles job and possibly keep JT.
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I'm not sure if the Toronto job was vacant when Shero took over here? Actually, I think it was already? Come to think of it. I think Nonis was fired at the conclusion of the 15-16 season, before we even took Lou out of the GM position.
I think Shero would have gotten a GM job long before the Islanders fired Garth. I still think Garth would have been there this year if Lou didn't become available. It seemed the owners wanted to make a splash by bringing in Lou, but they also seemed content to leave Garth in there at least one more year if he didn't come along.
There weren't many GM jobs filled in between the time Shero was fired from Pittsburgh and the time he was hired here. Only Vancouver (hired Benning exactly one week after Pittsburgh fired Shero), Washington, Pittsburgh, Colorado and Edmonton made a GM change between that. And Pittsburgh doesn't count because they fired him in the first place. And Colorado was gonna hire Sakic anyway, as he was already technically the GM in all but name for over a year before that, while Shero was still the Pens GM. I guess you can also count Boston and Toronto though, who made firings in between Shero's firing in Pittsburgh and hiring here, but didn't make a hire until after we had already gotten him.
There was also heavy speculation that Washington wanted to hire Shero, but went with MacLellan instead, who had been their assistant GM for some time already. If I'm not mistaken, there may have even been a rumor that Pittsburgh blocked Washington from talking to Shero right after firing him, but maybe that wasn't true.
BenedictGomez
Corsi is GROSSLY overrated
I've never paid ANY attention to this & dont buy it. IMO, Shero is keeping his powder covered & dried, and it laying in wait.
The reason I think that is because it's exactly what I would do if I knew I was a GM of a team that had absolutely 0% chance of winning for a few years.
July 2019 is when I expect the Devils to start lobbing howitzers in the FA hockey world. If Shero doesnt spend money by August 2019, then I'll start to worry & wonder if I was wrong.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
I honestly don’t believe there will be many FA howisters to lob.
July 2019 or 2020 is when I can see Shero lob some trade howisters though. Start trading first round picks and higher level futures for bigger ticket players.
He has avoided taking guys that would cost those assets, or have outlandish contracts. You start that mortgaging process when you believe you are a piece or two away, and not a moment before.
July 2019 or 2020 is when I can see Shero lob some trade howisters though. Start trading first round picks and higher level futures for bigger ticket players.
He has avoided taking guys that would cost those assets, or have outlandish contracts. You start that mortgaging process when you believe you are a piece or two away, and not a moment before.
BenedictGomez
Corsi is GROSSLY overrated
I'm not talking about a NYR style, risk the next 10 years of hockey on a 3 to 4 year window, I'm just talking about signing a few solid free agents.
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