Devils ownership discussion thread (mod note: post #17)

[MadDevil]

If Severson and a pick in the 20s next year is “the future” to turn down even one year of Karlsson, you either think Severson is about to be a superstar or the team still isn’t that good, in which case it logically follows that we might as well blow the whole thing up.

Or that one year of Karlsson simply isn't worth giving up Severson + a 1st round pick? Do you honestly think we're a serious Cup contender this year with Karlsson?

 

[Triumph]

If Severson and a pick in the 20s next year is “the future” to turn down even one year of Karlsson, you either think Severson is about to be a superstar or the team still isn’t that good, in which case it logically follows that we might as well blow the whole thing up.

I have no idea how this 'logic' follows. I don't think the team is that good. I definitely don't think they should 'blow the whole thing up'. They need to let the young players mature a bit and let their prospects become somewhat more seasoned before they can make a move like that. It's definitely called for in the near future, but not just yet.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

And all of those guys would still be here. When did we get back to believing that Severson was the next coming of Bobby Orr?

Mods, should this discussion get move somewhere else?

Yes - the men's room probably.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Adding Karlsson to this team would put the team in the realm of Cup plausibility this year. With him, the Devils are probably better than the 2011-12 team.

But more to the point, if that’s your view of the world, then there’s really not much point watching the team for a while.

Some people like hockey enough, and like the team enough, to want to watch and support them even if they realistically aren't going to compete for the Cup, or even necessarily be very good...

 

[Billdo]

While San Jose didn't give up much, the Devils arent a Karlsson away from being a legit threat. Stay the course fellas.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I have no idea how this 'logic' follows. I don't think the team is that good. I definitely don't think they should 'blow the whole thing up'. They need to let the young players mature a bit and let their prospects become somewhat more seasoned before they can make a move like that. It's definitely called for in the near future, but not just yet.

If you’re of the view that a Severson and one first round pick in what figures to be somewhere in the teens is not worth Karlsson, even one year of him but where by virtue of that you have a good chance of extending him, you really have to hope for a draft unicorn or another highway robbery of a trade.

Also, Shero traded a second round pick and a has a decent shot prospect for two months of Michael F’n Grabner, and it was whatevs when it was clear he stunk. But now, a first rounder, the guy who would be the odd man out anyway, and spare parts for at least is a year of Erik Karlsson would destroy the future of the franchise. Don’t get people sometimes.

 

[Triumph]

If you’re of the view that a Severson and one first round pick in what figures to be somewhere in the teens is not worth Karlsson, even one year of him but where by virtue of that you have a good chance of extending him, you really have to hope for a draft unicorn or another highway robbery of a trade.

Again, you keep adding terms - I don't think the Devils, or anybody who traded for Karlsson besides Tampa, had a good chance of extending him. That's why Jordan Staal was traded for an 8th overall pick, Brandon Sutter, and Brian Dumolin at the draft and Erik Karlsson got back 2 B/C grade prospects, NHL roster filler, and a 1st round and 2nd round pick in mid-September.

I do think Severson and a 1st is worth Karlsson if that vaulted the team into being a Cup contender, but I don't think it does so for New Jersey.

 

[Oneiro]

If Severson is as inconsequential as you assume he is, then he doesn't fetch Karlsson in a trade.

But if he is of consequence, then you're giving up a cost-controlled young D with a long contract who still manages to do a better job than at least 30% of the defensemen in the league even while having a long way to go defensively. All so you can have a shot, not at the Cup, but at signing a player who does not put us close to being better than the best teams in our division, let alone the rest of the league.

Why? Because the fruit isn't ripe yet.

EDIT :Talking to Setec Astronomy.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Again, you keep adding terms - I don't think the Devils, or anybody who traded for Karlsson besides Tampa, had a good chance of extending him. That's why Jordan Staal was traded for an 8th overall pick, Brandon Sutter, and Brian Dumolin at the draft and Erik Karlsson got back 2 B/C grade prospects, NHL roster filler, and a 1st round and 2nd round pick in mid-September.

I do think Severson and a 1st is worth Karlsson if that vaulted the team into being a Cup contender, but I don't think it does so for New Jersey.

San Jose will extend him in all likelihood, and I think we could have too. Or, if things looked terrible a few months into the season, you could recoup most of what you gave to Ottawa.

In the end, it seems like Ottawa were just being their usual idiot selves and were not going to trade him to an Eastern Conference team, which I guess explains that conditional pick they get if San Jose flips him to an Eastern Conference team.

I just find it amazing that you see the nothing return Ottawa got for a top ten player in the world, and most people here say, “I didn’t want any part of that anyway, because we’re losing a second pairing defenseman on a good contract.”

Also, see my addendum regarding no one losing their crap about Grabner debacle, but somehow thinking a Karlsson trade would destroy the team’s future.

 

[Call Me Al]

that is only the most extreme interpretation of anything anyone is saying

 

[Call Me Al]

“one year of karlsson when we’re probably not competing for the cup isn’t worth losing severson and a first round pick” is not equal to “destroying the team’s future”

 

[Call Me Al]

for the record i would have made that deal but i get people who wouldn’t

 

[Setec Astronomy]

If Severson is as inconsequential as you assume he is, then he doesn't fetch Karlsson in a trade.

But if he is of consequence, then you're giving up a cost-controlled young D with a long contract who still manages to do a better job than at least 30% of the defensemen in the league even while having a long way to go defensively. All so you can have a shot, not at the Cup, but at signing a player who does not put us close to being better than the best teams in our division, let alone the rest of the league.

Why? Because the fruit isn't ripe yet.

EDIT :Talking to Setec Astronomy.

He’s not inconsequential. I’m saying that he’s in all likelihood a better piece than anything Ottawa got in the deal, and that if our top two right handed defenseman this year anyway are Karlsson and Vatanen, you can live without Severson, who doesn’t look like he’s going to be the top pairing guy people were hoping for.

Re the Staal trade. That had everything to do with Shero clearing cap space to sign Parise and/or Suter.

 

[Call Me Al]

you have to assume that ottawa did not want to make a trade with an eastern conference team. nj's first round pick in 2019 is more valuable than anything ottawa got from san jose considering the state of their franchise so you just have to assume ottawa wasn't interested regardless. i can't imagine that shero didn't at least pick up the phone

 

[Setec Astronomy]

you have to assume that ottawa did not want to make a trade with an eastern conference team. nj's first round pick in 2019 is more valuable than anything ottawa got from san jose considering the state of their franchise so you just have to assume ottawa wasn't interested regardless. i can't imagine that shero didn't at least pick up the phone

Like I said, I imagine that's ultimately what happened. And I do believe the reports that Shero made an attempt, which is why I'm not calling for his head, just that I'm disappointed it wasn't in the cards and amazed at the people here who are saying they wouldn't have wanted any part of it anyway at that price.

 

[Zezel22]

If you’re of the view that a Severson and one first round pick in what figures to be somewhere in the teens is not worth Karlsson, even one year of him but where by virtue of that you have a good chance of extending him, you really have to hope for a draft unicorn or another highway robbery of a trade.

Also, Shero traded a second round pick and a has a decent shot prospect for two months of Michael F’n Grabner, and it was whatevs when it was clear he stunk. But now, a first rounder, the guy who would be the odd man out anyway, and spare parts for at least is a year of Erik Karlsson would destroy the future of the franchise. Don’t get people sometimes.

Best point regarding value I've seen so far.

Look, everybody is entitled to their opinion - and that certainly includes Ray Shero and the Devils ownership, who's opinions matter more than anyone else. But you can certainly argue that based on this scenario being discussed, that Severson + 1 for Karlsson for 1 season is certainly superior value to Rykov + 2 for Grabner for 2 months.

And Shero has said multiple times we he was happy with that trade. And this board has established that you take shero at his word when he makes comments. Like when he says he has no internal cap, that he has green light to spend whatever he wants for example... because he says it, we are told to believe it is the truth. So he has said that he remains happy with that Grabner trade even after hte fact so we have to assume he approves of that value.

I would also argue that Karlsson for a season has more value than simply Karlsson for a season. I think we all agree that the Devils in New Jersey have a 0% shot of landing a UFA on the level of Erik Karlsson on the open market. But it has been said that many players, Taylor Hall included, have warmed to New Jersey once they have been here and spent time here. Having Karlsson here for a year would give you a real shot at signing him that you would never have if he was a July 1 UFA who woudl never actually consider NJD.

Further, I am of the opinion you need to show Hall that you are going to invest in the team around him. Again thats my opinion. He needs to be signed July 1 of this year. A move like this woudl have cemented that with him in my mind. I fear he may grow weary of depending on Joey Anderson and friends to be the hope of upgrade as he has stated Championship is his #1 priority moving forward.

 

[My3Sons]

Like I said, I imagine that's ultimately what happened. And I do believe the reports that Shero made an attempt, which is why I'm not calling for his head, just that I'm disappointed it wasn't in the cards and amazed at the people here who are saying they wouldn't have wanted any part of it anyway at that price.

I don't interpret a lot of the comments as saying they wouldn't want EK for something similar to what SJ gave up. I think it's a false economy issue. Too many free agents have either left NJ or never considered NJ as a destination. With the speculation of EK to Tampa I think a fair number of the NJ fanbase posters see EK as nothing more than a rental and so not part of any long term plan. Given the state of the team, and given the success of Nico and the apparent positive outlook on Smith, the first round pick if the team misses the playoffs may have true long term value. I think most of the negative comments on the trade are comfortable with the plan laid down by Shero originally and don't see the short term quick fix and in line with that. I can see both the upside and downside of an EK trade for NJ but look at what complaining there was for the Grabner trade. I think similar thoughts were voiced for a potential EK trade.

 

[Zezel22]

I don't interpret a lot of the comments as saying they wouldn't want EK for something similar to what SJ gave up. I think it's a false economy issue. Too many free agents have either left NJ or never considered NJ as a destination. With the speculation of EK to Tampa I think a fair number of the NJ fanbase posters see EK as nothing more than a rental and so not part of any long term plan. Given the state of the team, and given the success of Nico and the apparent positive outlook on Smith, the first round pick if the team misses the playoffs may have true long term value. I think most of the negative comments on the trade are comfortable with the plan laid down by Shero originally and don't see the short term quick fix and in line with that. I can see both the upside and downside of an EK trade for NJ but look at what complaining there was for the Grabner trade. I think similar thoughts were voiced for a potential EK trade.

Thats fair. Everyone has their right to an opinion. Vastly different players, of course. But nobody here can say someone else's opinion is wrong.

What bothers me is when people continue to make excuses, and often the same excuses, for the devils inactivity. The Devils are cap floor team until they are not. And I don't mean LITERALLY on the cap floor. More or less, you want to spend on your team or you don't. You generally don't see teams laying in the weeds for years in anticipation of spending big. You see teams spending big, occasionally clearing space and spending big again. Hopefully I am wrong... but until they spend money they arent spending money and thats just what it is. And if we said on here - the devils are a moneyball team and thats the way it is... i would support it. They are the home team, I am a home team guy. But I just want to see it called like it is.

 

[Call Me Al]

they've already announced their intentions to open the purse for hall. the problem with that thinking is that they haven't explicitly turned down opportunities to spend big dollars on a player simply because of money. there just haven't been opportunities there. they went after shattenkirk, he went somewhere else. they went after jvr, he went somewhere else. what do you want him to do?

they're drafting and developing players within a system and a style that match the identity they want, i'd rather they pay these guys when they're due and the devils window is really open, then augment that with big name players when the opportunity presents itself, not just for the sake of spending money

 

[Triumph]

Best point regarding value I've seen so far.

Look, everybody is entitled to their opinion - and that certainly includes Ray Shero and the Devils ownership, who's opinions matter more than anyone else. But you can certainly argue that based on this scenario being discussed, that Severson + 1 for Karlsson for 1 season is certainly superior value to Rykov + 2 for Grabner for 2 months.

And Shero has said multiple times we he was happy with that trade. And this board has established that you take shero at his word when he makes comments. Like when he says he has no internal cap, that he has green light to spend whatever he wants for example... because he says it, we are told to believe it is the truth. So he has said that he remains happy with that Grabner trade even after hte fact so we have to assume he approves of that value.

I'm entitled to my opinion, and I don't believe a lot of what Shero says. You insist on putting words in everyone's mouth. I do think if he had a constraining internal cap that he'd be thinking about leaving before next summer because things will start to go south at that point here and he's built up enough goodwill here to move to a better situation elsewhere if that opportunity presents itself.

That said, the reason why Rykov + 2 for Grabner for 2 months made sense is because of the marginal value of points at the time, even though it didn't work out. I'm pretty convinced that the Devils didn't think they could sign Rykov next off-season, in which case his value is severely diminished whether or not he actually turns out to be a good NHL player or not. Giving up a non-lottery protected 1st round pick is a much different story. This team could easily go sideways even with Karlsson - they don't exactly have reliable goaltending - so, great, they trade Karlsson out west for a low 1st rounder and 3 other garbage-y things, but now they're out a high 1st. That would be a disaster.

I would also argue that Karlsson for a season has more value than simply Karlsson for a season. I think we all agree that the Devils in New Jersey have a 0% shot of landing a UFA on the level of Erik Karlsson on the open market. But it has been said that many players, Taylor Hall included, have warmed to New Jersey once they have been here and spent time here. Having Karlsson here for a year would give you a real shot at signing him that you would never have if he was a July 1 UFA who woudl never actually consider NJD.

Further, I am of the opinion you need to show Hall that you are going to invest in the team around him. Again thats my opinion. He needs to be signed July 1 of this year. A move like this woudl have cemented that with him in my mind. I fear he may grow weary of depending on Joey Anderson and friends to be the hope of upgrade as he has stated Championship is his #1 priority moving forward.

Getting Karlsson here and then having him walk would cement what exactly? On July 1, Karlsson walks, Hall is now delighted to sign? Now he's not talking extension in San Jose but that's also because he can't, not really - he can't sign the 8 year deal until the trade deadline passes, and maybe that's his intent.

Also the return for Karlsson should demonstrate that trading Hall is not an option unless he flatly says he will not re-sign in New Jersey. Ottawa got nothing of serious value for Karlsson.

 

[Triumph]

Thats fair. Everyone has their right to an opinion. Vastly different players, of course. But nobody here can say someone else's opinion is wrong.

What bothers me is when people continue to make excuses, and often the same excuses, for the devils inactivity. The Devils are cap floor team until they are not. And I don't mean LITERALLY on the cap floor. More or less, you want to spend on your team or you don't. You generally don't see teams laying in the weeds for years in anticipation of spending big. You see teams spending big, occasionally clearing space and spending big again. Hopefully I am wrong... but until they spend money they arent spending money and thats just what it is. And if we said on here - the devils are a moneyball team and thats the way it is... i would support it. They are the home team, I am a home team guy. But I just want to see it called like it is.

Most teams don't get as ground down to a nub as the Devils were in 2015. Most teams still have good players who they drafted or traded for who have big contracts. The Devils don't have that and they still don't have it. They haven't signed a UFA-age player they've drafted, signed as a UDFA, or traded for since Shero took over. The most they did was sign Larsson to a 6 year deal that took him into his UFA years. EDIT 2: They also signed Severson into 2 of his UFA years as well.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the other team down near the cap floor is Toronto, that classic non-spending team. What are they doing down there? Guess there must be an internal cap. Now when Nylander signs, they'll be well above NJ, but they're down there for the same reason NJ is - their players aren't expensive and most of them are very young.

 

[Zezel22]

Most teams don't get as ground down to a nub as the Devils were in 2015. Most teams still have good players who they drafted or traded for who have big contracts. The Devils don't have that and they still don't have it. They haven't signed a UFA-age player they've drafted, signed as a UDFA, or traded for since Shero took over. The most they did was sign Larsson to a 6 year deal that took him into his UFA years. EDIT 2: They also signed Severson into 2 of his UFA years as well.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the other team down near the cap floor is Toronto, that classic non-spending team. What are they doing down there? Guess there must be an internal cap. Now when Nylander signs, they'll be well above NJ, but they're down there for the same reason NJ is - their players aren't expensive and most of them are very young.

Toronto just signed the biggest UFA in modern history. If you had questions about MLSE's plans or willingness to invest in their on-ice product, that should be a sufficient answer. As I said, until a team spends, they aren't spending. The Leafs made their intentions public several years ago - that they were going to tank -- something this board at large (not going to mention any names) said never works. Now, as they pledged to do, they are coming out of it - with a bevy of young stars and just having landed a big fish. So you can't claim that the Leafs are not willing to spend. You can still make that claim about the Devils because it has not happened. You can disagree with it, as you do. But its not the same situation as the leafs.

 

[Call Me Al]

uh whether you want to call it a tank or not we drafted 1st overall last year, just like the leafs before them

 

[Call Me Al]

these sky are falling posts about the owners are getting tired, there’s no evidence to prove extremes either way, what’s the point of getting worked up.

when hall leaves because he’s not offered enough money then complaints will be justified but this is just people projecting what they want to happen as if it’s only shero or the owners decision who plays here or signs as a free agent

 

[Call Me Al]

i mean they’ve made it perfectly clear that they want to build through the draft themselves so i don’t even understand this perceived ambiguity about what the devils are trying to do