Devils 2018-19 team discussion (player news and notes) - offseason part VI

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NJDevs26

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Mar 21, 2007
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Continued from the last thread...

People are conflating two different arguments. The pure goons in hockey are far and few between now, that's the difference and teams that rely on them are behind the times. But you still need physical players that can play hockey - you can't win entirely on finesse either unless you have Crosby and Malkin. Wilson for whatever people think of him can play hockey. You still need and see guys like that, who are physical but can occasionally chip in offensively. You don't see guys like Cam who are only there to fight and can't hang at all with the speed game.

But then why did a 'better' team goon it up like they did.

You can't say that they simply skated circles around us. My expectations going in was that would be the case - that their superior firepower would be evident...not that they would pound the crap out of us and send Vatanan and others to the dressing room.

In a pure Euro-style game, we could almost hang with their speed where many other teams couldn't; and have a chance in a horse race with a couple of bounces.

The physicality they introduced to the series may have not been THE difference, but it played a big role.

Well they did every game in Tampa. It was just the games in Jersey that were closely played and chippy. I'd say their physicality was a big difference in Game 4, not so much the other three games they won although missing Vat didn't help in the last two periods of Games 4 and Game 5 either.
 

billingtons ghost

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Continued from the last thread...

People are conflating two different arguments. The pure goons in hockey are far and few between now, ...You still need and see guys like that, who are physical but can occasionally chip in offensively. You don't see guys like Cam who are only there to fight and can't hang at all with the speed game.



Well they did every game in Tampa. It was just the games in Jersey that were closely played and chippy. I'd say their physicality was a big difference in Game 4, not so much the other three games they won although missing Vat didn't help in the last two periods of Games 4 and Game 5 either.

I think this is a misstatement. Maybe Cam couldn't hang with the 'skill' game, but he was a reasonably fast skater (albeit unidirectionally) and his stopping was all about the boards.

My original point was:
Cam Jansson was fine at what he did for the time he did it, and we'll always need 'energy' guys who can also drop the gloves a little. Ideally, another Randy McKay.
 

billingtons ghost

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They didn't 'goon it up' - they played physical hockey. Hedman speared Nico in the groin once, I guess, and people here reacted as if that hasn't happened before in hockey ever. Kucherov laid a big hit on Vatanen. Everyone also pretended like an enforcer would've made a difference here. But the Devils got outplayed more than they got outphysicaled - do I think the Devils need to be stronger as a team, sure, but I don't think they should make personnel changes based on that.

Not sure we have the same definition of 'gooning it up' but for me- stepping over the line of legality with questionable hits and spears causing injuries qualifies. Realize that we had beaten them repeatedly during the regular season (albeit with ridiculous luck) when they were playing a passive game...because we COULD skate with them.
...but nothing says that the same luck couldn't continue. So they initiated physical and borderline dirty play.

What they did was the exact thing the Rangers did to us in 1994 before how we learned how to play that game, and what they did to us in 1997 when Messier cross-checked Gilmour.

Tampa walked the line (in fact stepped over the line) of legality and didn't get called on it, and we had no answer.

In 1994 we should've been in the Cup finals except for the parade to the penalty box in retaliation penalties. In 1997 we had no real answer in part because we lost instigators like Claude Lemieux.

You're kidding yourself if you think Tampa won that series on superior skill. They just didn't have their A game going else it would've been more lopsided --- and they intimidated us, provoked us, and we had neither the personnel nor the power-play to take advantage of when the refs actually DID call a penalty. That was the difference.
 

devilsblood

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I'm not sure what proceeded the above posts but I agree with Ghost, Tampa's physicality was a big part of that series.

I don't agree that goonery played much of a role though. I don't think Kucherov's hit was a goon play. Hedman's was but I don't think that played a role. He backed off that play quickly afterwards and I thought it peeved off our guys more then it intimidated them anyways.
 
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Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
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We did get pushed around in the Tampa series, but I still think we have enough guys who play a physical game.

Guys like Coleman, Wood, and Noesen had their first taste of NHL playoff hockey. I think we will see a different side of them next time we make the playoffs.

The only thing I would say we lack is that physical defenseman who is just a pain in the ass to play against. Santini could definitely develop into that though.
 
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My3Sons

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Continued from the last thread...

People are conflating two different arguments. The pure goons in hockey are far and few between now, that's the difference and teams that rely on them are behind the times. But you still need physical players that can play hockey - you can't win entirely on finesse either unless you have Crosby and Malkin. Wilson for whatever people think of him can play hockey. You still need and see guys like that, who are physical but can occasionally chip in offensively. You don't see guys like Cam who are only there to fight and can't hang at all with the speed game.



Well they did every game in Tampa. It was just the games in Jersey that were closely played and chippy. I'd say their physicality was a big difference in Game 4, not so much the other three games they won although missing Vat didn't help in the last two periods of Games 4 and Game 5 either.

If the league suspended cheap shot artists when they cheap shot people it would stop. For example when the defenseman on a team spears the other team’s center in the groin on camera that player should be suspended for the next game. Even in the playoffs.

Similarly a repeat offender who elbows an opposing forward in the head causing him to miss numerous games should himself be suspended for numerous games. If you can’t play physically without following the rules then you aren’t a physical player just a new age goon.

How about NJ signs a fourth line of AHL thugs and lets them play five games each and draw an NHL paycheck then send them out to spear slewfoot clothesline and charley horse the best players on the other team. There will be no consequneces because the league office of player safety is a joke. Honestly I’m surprised no one has tried it yet. Why not beat Wilson over the head with a stick multiple times in the game? Most you’ll get is a minor penalty and maybe he is concussed and out for the rest of the series.
 

My3Sons

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We did get pushed around in the Tampa series, but I still think we have enough guys who play a physical game.

Guys like Coleman, Wood, and Noesen had their first taste of NHL playoff hockey. I think we will see a different side of them next time we make the playoffs.

The only thing I would say we lack is that physical defenseman who is just a pain in the ass to play against. Santini could definitely develop into that though.

NJ needs some cheap shot artists on the fourth line to spear the other team’s best players since no one fights anymore and the cheap shot artists have no repercussions.
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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If the league suspended cheap shot artists when they cheap shot people it would stop. For example when the defenseman on a team spears the other team’s center in the groin on camera that player should be suspended for the next game. Even in the playoffs.

Similarly a repeat offender who elbows an opposing forward in the head causing him to miss numerous games should himself be suspended for numerous games. If you can’t play physically without following the rules then you aren’t a physical player just a new age goon.

How about NJ signs a fourth line of AHL thugs and lets them play five games each and draw an NHL paycheck then send them out to spear slewfoot clothesline and charley horse the best players on the other team. There will be no consequneces because the league office of player safety is a joke. Honestly I’m surprised no one has tried it yet. Why not beat Wilson over the head with a stick multiple times in the game? Most you’ll get is a minor penalty and maybe he is concussed and out for the rest of the series.
The NHL only cares about the perception of player safety. Until that changes, the weak enforcement of the rules and typical Pronger physics won't change.
 
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My3Sons

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The NHL only cares about the perception of player safety. Until that changes, the weak enforcement of the rules and typical Pronger physics won't change.

And that is a huge flaw in the game. If the league wants to let the skill players shine they need to get rid of the cheap shots. They have the power to do so.

Let me run player safety and I’ll have the league cleaned up in one season. When BOS and WAS have to play in the playoffs without Marchand and Wilson the players and teams will take note.

When the GMs call me to complain I’ll email the highlights package of the cheap shots and ask them to play that video publicly and explain why their player shouldn’t be suspended. They’ll shut up and the game would start to change.

Frankly I blame the owners and I’m not sure why they put their investments at risk like this.
 
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Blender

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And that is a huge flaw in the game. If the league wants to let the skill players shine they need to get rid of the cheap shots. They have the power to do so.

Let me run player safety and I’ll have the league cleaned up in one season. When BOS and WAS have to play in the playoffs without Marchand and Wilson the players and teams will take note.

When the GMs call me to complain I’ll email the highlights package of the cheap shots and ask them to play that video publicly and explain why their player shouldn’t be suspended. They’ll shut up and the game would start to change.

Frankly I blame the owners and I’m not sure why they put their investments at risk like this.
Of course it's the owners, they run the league. People like to complain about Bettman and NHL head office as if they're the dictators of the game, but they just do what the owners want.
 
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Goptor

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Jun 30, 2016
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And that is a huge flaw in the game. If the league wants to let the skill players shine they need to get rid of the cheap shots. They have the power to do so.

Let me run player safety and I’ll have the league cleaned up in one season. When BOS and WAS have to play in the playoffs without Marchand and Wilson the players and teams will take note.

When the GMs call me to complain I’ll email the highlights package of the cheap shots and ask them to play that video publicly and explain why their player shouldn’t be suspended. They’ll shut up and the game would start to change.

Frankly I blame the owners and I’m not sure why they put their investments at risk like this.

Its a shame because they can penalize the slashes and the players will learn and stop it. Instead they're too scared of another 2006 when you have 40+ total minor penalty minutes in a game and the product looks like crap.

They should just go with the chance of a lousy playoffs and then the next year show replays and announce it will be officiated exactly the same. All the team that got eliminated early because they were too busy slashing and throwing cheap shots will guaranteed be on their best behavior.
 
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Camille the Eel

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I'm not sure what proceeded the above posts but I agree with Ghost, Tampa's physicality was a big part of that series.

I don't agree that goonery played much of a role though. I don't think Kucherov's hit was a goon play. Hedman's was but I don't think that played a role. He backed off that play quickly afterwards and I thought it peeved off our guys more then it intimidated them anyways.
What they also did that we will see more of this season was pound Hall relentlessly - guys lining up 5 deep to trap him, chip him, knock him every which way. They decided he wasn’t going to beat them; to make him give up the puck; to hammer him every chance that presented. They were good at it. By games 3 and 4 he appeared to be playing beaten up and exhausted.

Still on that power play in game 4, he’s sneaking in from the point and Maroon hits him with a cross ice pass from the right corner and with Vasilevsky out of position Hall just misses tying the game with a high shot to an open back corner. If we tie that game . . . at least we have a chance to extend the series to 6.
 

Spoiled Bratt

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Jun 29, 2016
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Not sure we have the same definition of 'gooning it up' but for me- stepping over the line of legality with questionable hits and spears causing injuries qualifies. Realize that we had beaten them repeatedly during the regular season (albeit with ridiculous luck) when they were playing a passive game...because we COULD skate with them.
...but nothing says that the same luck couldn't continue. So they initiated physical and borderline dirty play.

What they did was the exact thing the Rangers did to us in 1994 before how we learned how to play that game, and what they did to us in 1997 when Messier cross-checked Gilmour.

Tampa walked the line (in fact stepped over the line) of legality and didn't get called on it, and we had no answer.

In 1994 we should've been in the Cup finals except for the parade to the penalty box in retaliation penalties. In 1997 we had no real answer in part because we lost instigators like Claude Lemieux.

You're kidding yourself if you think Tampa won that series on superior skill. They just didn't have their A game going else it would've been more lopsided --- and they intimidated us, provoked us, and we had neither the personnel nor the power-play to take advantage of when the refs actually DID call a penalty. That was the difference.

This post is rock solid and spot on!
 
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