Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - Preseason

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Stephen Gionta

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Interesting that in the three seasons Shero has been here, he's tried 3 stop gap RW. Stempniak, Parenteau, and Stafford. Stafford was the one that sucked the most, yet he's back on a PTO.

I always thought we should have resigned Stempniak to the same deal he got from Carolina. I can't imagine he would have picked them over us in 2016 summer.
 

Stephen Gionta

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Mueller trade is Shero's only gaffe as Devils GM so far. For a resume that includes trades involving big names such as Palmieri Larsson Hall Henrique Vatanen and Johansson, thats pretty damn good.

Though man, that trade looked brutal when it was made and still looks brutal. Only 1 year in though so lets see.
 

tailfins

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Mueller was playing quite well and then suffered a serious injury. He then wasn't able to find his footing at the tail end of the season.

Who would we have protected in the expansion draft? We lost Merrill who stinks as it is.

making a definitive conclusion either way on that trade, at this point in time, is nonsense.

As I said, it's small potatoes.

But you can't just dismiss costs as irrelevant, assume performance that didn't happen.

The Devils traded a pretty valuable pick for someone who was never playing for the Sharks again. I even forgot that Mueller was no longer waiver exempt, so the even if he wasn't picked by the Knights, the Sharks would have had to expose him to waivers.

The Devils traded for a sure-fire NHL defenseman. They got a project. The guy was scratched from Feb 22 - Mar 24. The project could still work out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an overpay.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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As I said, it's small potatoes.

But you can't just dismiss costs as irrelevant, assume performance that didn't happen.

The Devils traded a pretty valuable pick for someone who was never playing for the Sharks again. I even forgot that Mueller was no longer waiver exempt, so the even if he wasn't picked by the Knights, the Sharks would have had to expose him to waivers.

The Devils traded for a sure-fire NHL defenseman. They got a project. The guy was scratched from Feb 22 - Mar 24. The project could still work out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an overpay.

a mid 2nd round pick is not a "pretty valuable pick"

how about we let the guy play a full season before we make a call either way?
 

Stephen Gionta

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As I said, it's small potatoes.

But you can't just dismiss costs as irrelevant, assume performance that didn't happen.

The Devils traded a pretty valuable pick for someone who was never playing for the Sharks again. I even forgot that Mueller was no longer waiver exempt, so the even if he wasn't picked by the Knights, the Sharks would have had to expose him to waivers.

The Devils traded for a sure-fire NHL defenseman. They got a project. The guy was scratched from Feb 22 - Mar 24. The project could still work out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an overpay.

Completely, completely agree. There is still time for Mueller to work out, but at this point, I would have just rather protected Merrill and had Vegas take Cammalleri, Lovejoy, DSP, or Bennett in the expansion draft.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Yes it is what are you saying.

no, it isn't. Why do you think they are traded like candy every year?

the probability of a player picked ~50th in the draft becoming even an above average NHL player are extremely slim. I know this is HF boards, but draft picks are always supremely overrated around these parts.

Even if all Mueller becomes is a 3rd pairing DMan, that trade is a win.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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seriously, go and look at the back half of the 2nd round from drafts 4, 5, 6, 7 years ago

you'll find a couple of good players, a whole bunch of blah, and then some guys who never even played a game in the league
 

Stephen Gionta

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no, it isn't. Why do you think they are traded like candy every year?

the probability of a player picked ~50th in the draft becoming even an above average NHL player are extremely slim. I know this is HF boards, but draft picks are always supremely overrated around these parts.

Even if all Mueller becomes is a 3rd pairing DMan, that trade is a win.

1. Do you want me to put together a list of guys who are a s***load better than Mueller that have been drafted in the second round the past few years? Especially with Castron at the helm, it's even more valuable than other teams with below average scouting departments. It is different when you are trading a 2nd to add a player at the trade deadline.

2. Its pretty slim I agree, but I still wouldn't give up that chance so that we can acquire a guy like Mueller who seems destined to be a career bottom pairing D. You could sign those every single summer for nothing but cap space. Or draft them in the 4th and 5th rounds.

3. No, its not a win. Because I think it is better to have the chance at drafting a player who has a 5% chance to turn out to be elite or a superstar in the 2nd round, than getting a bottom pairing D. Bottom pairing D are so easy to sign in offseason. With a 2nd round pick, sure if you get a bottom pairing D its okay, but thats not what you're hoping for when you draft a player.

Stop defending every single move Shero has ever made. He has literally made unbelievablely great trades as Devils GM. However the Mueller deal was not a good trade. At least for now...
 

tailfins

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seriously, go and look at the back half of the 2nd round from drafts 4, 5, 6, 7 years ago

you'll find a couple of good players, a whole bunch of blah, and then some guys who never even played a game in the league

You are absolutely correct about their success. But, 2nd round picks aren't "traded like candy". 2nd round picks generally bring back value. Because some of those 2nd rounders end up being Patrice Bergeron or Shea Weber. Mueller isn't going to be Weber. I'll be thrilled if he's a serviceable bottom 4 defensive defenseman. If you want to trade for one of those at the trade deadline, those guys generally don't go for more than a 2nd round pick.

Whatever. The deal is done. I'm rooting for Mueller to add value.

I was just reacting to the notion that it's somehow too early to judge the trade.
 
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HBK27

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Mueller trade is Shero's only gaffe as Devils GM so far. For a resume that includes trades involving big names such as Palmieri Larsson Hall Henrique Vatanen and Johansson, thats pretty damn good.

Though man, that trade looked brutal when it was made and still looks brutal. Only 1 year in though so lets see.

Trading a 2nd rounder and Rykov for Grabner (to our rivals!!!) was a much, much bigger gaffe. He was a great penalty killer with speed...something the team already had an abundance of. Yeah, I know we all thought he'd be a better fit, but that was a lot to give up for a rental for a team just trying to make the playoffs.

Shero paid too much for Mueller, but the deal can still turn out OK depending on how Mueller performs. He showed some promise last year and is still only 23, so maybe he can be a reliable bottom pairing defenseman. The trade may have also indirectly saved us Noesen as without Mueller, maybe the Devils protect Merrill instead and then Noesen becomes the next most obvious pick in the expansion draft.
 

Stephen Gionta

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Trading a 2nd rounder and Rykov for Grabner (to our rivals!!!) was a much, much bigger gaffe. He was a great penalty killer with speed...something the team already had an abundance of. Yeah, I know we all thought he'd be a better fit, but that was a lot to give up for a rental for a team just trying to make the playoffs.

Shero paid too much for Mueller, but the deal can still turn out OK depending on how Mueller performs. He showed some promise last year and is still only 23, so maybe he can be a reliable bottom pairing defenseman. The trade may have also indirectly saved us Noesen as without Mueller, maybe the Devils protect Merrill instead and then Noesen becomes the next most obvious pick in the expansion draft.

Agreed on Mueller still possibly improving. But again, Why are we trading 2nd round picks for reliable bottom pairing defenseman. I think Cammalleri DSP or Lovejoy would have been selected before Noesen at the time.

No, that Grabner trade was great at the time it was made. Unfortunately it didn't work out for Grabner in NJ. But he was literally the Rangers leading goal scorer last season at the time of the trade. And he had 27 goals the year before. I think it was a good trade, it just all went downhill for Grabner.
 
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MadDevil

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I think it's fair to say, at the moment, that we overpaid for Mueller. That doesn't mean he can't still become a good player and make the trade look better though.
 
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Stephen Gionta

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I think it's fair to say, at the moment, that we overpaid for Mueller. That doesn't mean he can't still become a good player and make the trade look better though.

Perfectly said. As of now, trade looks like a bad trade, just as it looked at the time it was made. But hopefully we will be thanking Shero for Mueller in 1-2 years
 

Brodeur

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At least for me, the book hasn't closed on Mueller. At the time I wouldn't have given up the 49th pick for Mueller, but I also wasn't in love with that portion of the draft. I had been hoping Dylan Samberg would have been available but Winnipeg took him 43rd. Feels like one of those things were Mueller for a 2nd sounds incredibly bad, but Mueller for Mario Ferraro (the player that San Jose picked) seems fair.

Jack Studnicka looks good, but there's not a ton of guys I'd be losing sleep over that we passed up on. Buffalo being interested in Mueller would have made sense; They dealt a 3rd for Nathan Beaulieu on the same day we acquired Mueller.
 

Camille the Eel

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Yes I think he has promise. While I have only watched him on TV, he looks like a big rangy guy, with a long skating stride and long reach, the kind is back end anchor we have lacked, someone who can control the game in front of him. Shero and Hynes must feel there is something there, or they would not have let Moore walk and opened up a slot for him. What will happen? He is going to be one of the big back stories of the start of the coming season.
 

Bleedred

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We overpaid for Mueller because Pete Chiarelli traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson.

The price for defensemen seemed to go up after that, for at least a little while.

I'm still surprised we only had to give up Henrique and Blandisi (and a 3rd or something?) for Vatanen.
 
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NJDevs26

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can wood get this own thread or is that frowned upon in this group

His own thread for what, to ***** and moan about the holdout even more, a holdout where we know absolutely nothing and nobody's talking? I don't think having ten different threads would dial down the rhetoric, if anything it'd only spread it even more to have a 2015 draft thread, a Mueller thread, a Wood thread, a Zajac thread, etc and then people would obsess about that in those threads AND here.

I think it's fair to say, at the moment, that we overpaid for Mueller. That doesn't mean he can't still become a good player and make the trade look better though.

Most of us figured that 'at the time', but most of us also realize the market for defensemen is generally a bit of a sellers' market anyway. Whatever you think the value of a defenseman is (say a 3rd rounder for Mueller), add a little bit and that's what they actually go for in trades - exhibit A Eric Gelinas for a high 3rd just before he washed out for good. I don't think Dougie put one over on Shero though, and even though I'm a cynic on Mueller it's way too early to close the book on that. Maybe he breaks out the way Coleman eventually did.
 
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Nubmer6

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My problem with the Mueller trade wasn't even over-payment. It's that we traded for a 3rd pairing defenseman who had 2nd pairing upside when we were already stocked with such players. I would rather have used the 2nd and taken a shot at someone with a higher ceiling.
 
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NJDevs26

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Why aren’t we taking a cap dump for some draft picks? We have a ridiculous amount of cap space.

How may real cap dump trades have there been this offseason? It cost Montreal a 4th and a bunch of chaff to get rid of Steve Mason, I wouldn't have neccesarily minded a trade like that but a 4th hardly moves the needle. That's about what you're looking at though, to take on a year and $4 million (Mason's deal), and that deal was bought out anyway. Brooks Orpik was a cap dump within a hockey trade, that's how most cap dumps happen now. Colorado took the cap dump mostly to get Grubauer, who we didn't really need. A lot of teams cleared their cap during the expansion draft.
 
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