Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - part Xlll

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Bleedred

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my trade predictions:

Kinkaid for a 3rd + B prospect
Boyle for a 1st or 2nd + B prospect
Johansson for a 2nd + 3rd
Lovejoy for a 3rd
Lovejoy might be closer to a 4th, but since he plays defense and not forward, he might bring back a 3rd if Vern Fiddler brought back a 4th.

I don't see Kinkaid being traded for anything. His value isn't high enough to bring that back, plus, goalies like Kinkaid usually don't go at the deadline all that much. And as has already been mentioned, we probably should keep him because we lack goalie depth. You might not even be able to trust that Cory doesn't end up right back on the IR again if he comes back and after Blackwood our goalie depth is a bunch of ECHL talent. We're already signing Jeremy Brodeur to PTO's because the goalie depth is lacking in the organization.

I'd never say no to trading him for a decent prospect though, but if it's gonna be another quad A Quenneville type prospect that gets outscored by Blake Pietila at the NHL level, I think I'll pass.
 
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Bleedred

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Kinkaid probably has more value to a team that's hurting for goalie depth so bad that they're claiming Mike McKenna off waivers. Than he does for a contender.

And if we lose Kinkaid this season, we might be in a similar situation, if god forbid whatever happened to Blackwood starts acting up and Cory has a very recent history of multiple different injuries. We might have Cam Johnson and Evan Cormier being a tandem down the stretch. Even Eddie Lack has been shut down for the remainder of the season.
 

MartyOwns

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i really don’t see kinkaid having my value at the trade deadline. what do backups go for at the deadline, historically?
 

MichaelJ

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my trade predictions:

Kinkaid for a 3rd + B prospect
Boyle for a 1st or 2nd + B prospect
Johansson for a 2nd + 3rd
Lovejoy for a 3rd

If Johansson comes back and plays well between now and the deadline I hope Shero holds out for a 1st or a 2nd and a decent prospect. He’s a top6 forward, should generate interest among multiple teams.

I can’t see Boyle getting a 1st, more like what he returned last deadline deal for him.
 
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MartyOwns

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They're not usually traded.

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Billdo

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I think we can realistically look at a 2nd for Boyle, a 3rd + for Johansson, a 4th (possibly 3rd) for Lovejoy. TBH, I really think Lovejoys return will surprise people and Boyle could fetch a 1st if he's producing right near the deadline and a team needs a player like him. Playoff experience will go a long way at the deadline and nobody has more than Boyle lately.
 

Bleedred

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i really don’t see kinkaid having my value at the trade deadline. what do backups go for at the deadline, historically?
I'm trying to think of what James Reimer went for the year the Sharks got him, but it wasn't much. After looking it up, they only got him for Alex Stalock (who was thrown directly to the AHL Marlies), Ben Smith, who also went to the AHL Marlies. And a 4th round pick that was a conditional 3rd round pick if the Sharks reached the Stanley Cup Finals, which they did, so it became a 3rd because that condition was met.

So basically they got him for a two AHL/NHL tweeners and a 4th round pick that turned into a 3rd when they made the Finals.

And they only traded for him because Alex Stalock was such a liability that season, I think Martin Jones was on pace to play close to 75 games before the trade deadline.
 

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I mean I think its a vaild argument that if that Schneider trade never occurred, we would be in a better spot as an organization right now.

Our roster would look ENTIRELY different. No Hall, Probably no Hischier. No Zacha.

The fact is we have no idea what our roster would have looked like had we not traded for Cory. It's also funny how nobody said a damn thing when he was good, but now that he's fallen off a cliff some people are back to the revisionist history bullshit. What's done is done. Crying about it isn't going to change anything.
 

Bleedred

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The fact is we have no idea what our roster would have looked like had we not traded for Cory. It's also funny how nobody said a damn thing when he was good, but now that he's fallen off a cliff some people are back to the revisionist history bull****. What's done is done. Crying about it isn't going to change anything.
Sadly, there were people saying it when he was good. Now they think they can have their victory runs like they had actually predicted that he would suffer what is one of the greatest declines of an early 30's goaltender in too many years to remember. Only when he was good, it used to be that he ''Doesn't win'', now the goal posts have been moved and it's ''He doesn't win and he can't stop the puck''. Which is true, that last part, but the first part, the old ''He can't win'' meme was lacking rational and credible context.
 

Devils Dominion

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Tomorrow is a bad match-up for us

Hall is out, Giroux is in
Hart > Kink
Position by position we are outclassed overall

There is always a chance that Philly pulls a no-show effort, but until Hall and Big Mac return it's going to be a struggle.
 

Bleedred

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schneider hasn’t played in a month and we still suck lol. who gives a ****
Ever since Schneider has been injured or on the IR, Hall has been injured since like the week after and I don't even remember when Johansson (who was very hot when he was last in) last played. It's gotta be almost as long as Cory.

Besides, the week before Cory last played, I actually predicted we would only win about 5 games between then and the bye week/all star break. We've actually won 6 since then, with Hall missing most of the games and we still have over a week and like 4 more games to go before the break. So we'e already won more than I thought we would.

Without sounding like that dude that thinks Cory is worse for the team than Chiarelli, Cory would have meant less wins for this team since then. There's no doubt in my mind that Cory costs you wins with how he's played this year, which has been less than serviceable.

I know some still think he's bouncing back and it's okay to have faith and hope, you have to believe in something. I mean, shit man, I thought for sure the young woman I was seeing back in May-July was gonna contact me eventually a month after everything happened, but she never did. I held out on a lot of hope with that one.

The odds of Cory ever being good again are very much against him. Maybe not the odds of him being serviceable again or him winning a game or allowing one goal with a shutout or two in a string of starts ever again, but the odds of him being even an average starter again are very low. I think it's possible, assuming he's not too shot physically and physically beyond unrepair, that he could have one more good season in him, especially if he doesn't play that much. Think Jimmy Howard back in 16-17 when he only played 24 or 26 games. Howard was having a good first 25 game this year, but looks to regressing to what he now is.

But even if that happens for Cory, I fully expect him to return to this broken down declining version the very next year. I don't see him as any better than 2014 Marty. In fact, he might be worse than that at this juncture. It's not like he's 27 either. Cory's last 100 games are probably like if Taylor Hall only scored 50-60 points in his last 180-200 games. 100 games for a goalie is a lot. It's a lot more than 100 games for a skater, considering that most skaters when healthy, will play 82 games or close to it. Most goalies don't even hit 65 games in a season anymore.
 
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Bleedred

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Tomorrow is a bad match-up for us

Hall is out, Giroux is in
Hart > Kink
Position by position we are outclassed overall

There is always a chance that Philly pulls a no-show effort, but until Hall and Big Mac return it's going to be a struggle.
Pump the brakes on Hart. He's still too new to definitively say he's better than Kinkaid.

Any goalie can beat any other goalie on any given night in the NHL.

You've been saying they've been better than us position by position for years and yet we have a winning record over them since that time. We probably have more wins over them in the last 6 or 7 years than any other team in the league, if I had to guess.
 

Offseason Champs

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Pump the brakes on Hart and pump the brakes on Blackwood. Kid's looked good but there's no telling if he's actually ready to be in the NHL full time. Honestly the smart money is to keep Kink and Schneids for the rest of the year. If they suck, so be it. We aren't making the playoffs this year with the team playing like this, and both of them have historically played better than we've seen, so there's plenty of time and chance for a turnaround for either of them.

I doubt Boyle will be moving, but I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Lovejoy/Stafford/MoJo get dealt (since i doubt any of them would be back next year anyway). You aren't gonna get a lot back for those pieces. I wouldn't be overly shocked to see someone like Quenneville dealt as well. Get more picks, get ready for the offseason, and pray for the reign of Boqvist to be a fruitful and just one. If we can add one of the high tier wingers available in the offseason and shed some dead weight like Noesen while getting Ty Smith into the pros we shouldn't be in a terrible spot next year. Goaltending is something you can address better in the offseason as well.
 

MichaelJ

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This team has many ‘spare’ parts that other, better teams would love to add. Basically we have a great collection of supporting talent without high end leadership. Can we add that talent without blowing up what we have? I’d hate to see a solid supporting group wiped out to gain that top talent only to need to rebuild the support cast.
 
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NjDevsRR

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Lovejoy could get a good return. Dude did his job for three years and wasn’t bad at it. The amount of unwarranted moaning and groaning over him will not be missed.
 

NjDevsRR

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This team has many ‘spare’ parts that other, better teams would love to add. Basically we have a great collection of supporting talent without high end leadership. Can we add that talent without blowing up what we have? I’d hate to see a solid supporting group wiped out to gain that top talent only to need to rebuild the support cast.
Give Palms the captaincy. Upgrade the defense with two acquisitions, get a right shooting top 6 forward and they should be good to go for next season if they can get average goaltending.
 

bobilly45

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The fact is we have no idea what our roster would have looked like had we not traded for Cory. It's also funny how nobody said a damn thing when he was good, but now that he's fallen off a cliff some people are back to the revisionist history bull****. What's done is done. Crying about it isn't going to change anything.

Pretty sure I've always been a cory critic. Back before it was "cool".
Just like I've always be a kk supporter, long before that was "cool".

I'm not sold on blackwood.... still think we called him up during a hot stretch and will have a limit at some point. Again, not a popular opinion here

I think Johnson has a better chance to be kk like. From what I've seen he has the skillset, but needs to develop alot more. He also plays a hybrid style, which for me is an automatic plus over butterfly goalies solely from a longevity/injury prone aspect. Hybrids usually tend to get injured alot more bc of all the dropping to the ice on every shot, or shot attempt.
 

Bleedred

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Pump the brakes on Hart and pump the brakes on Blackwood. Kid's looked good but there's no telling if he's actually ready to be in the NHL full time. Honestly the smart money is to keep Kink and Schneids for the rest of the year. If they suck, so be it. We aren't making the playoffs this year with the team playing like this, and both of them have historically played better than we've seen, so there's plenty of time and chance for a turnaround for either of them.
Agree with you on both Hart and Blackwood but not at all on the last part.

Cory's played historically better than he has now because before his decline started 26 months ago in real time, he was one of the best goalies in the league. It's like saying in 2013 ''Marty has historically played better than we've seen the past year or two'' but like Cory now, Marty had been declining by that point and it had been a trend of multiple years by that time. 100 games is nearly 30% of his total career now. It's like saying ''Well, Luongo and Lundqvist have played much better in their careers than this year'' Yeah, no shit they have, it's called a decline.

The smart money is to play Blackwood so we can see if he's ready to make the NHL full time next year or not, then to send him back if he starts to struggle. Better to find that out this year than next year when he might have a full time spot. That doesn't mean we have to play him every game or anything, but give him starts like we were.

And it's because we aren't making the playoffs that it's now an evaluation period. It's not about playing Blackwood to see if we can make a playoff push at this point. It's because we know what Schneider and Kinkaid are right now. A very poor and chronically injured NHL caliber goalie at best and a career NHL backup. We don't know about about Blackwood yet to say anything definitively.

Schneider and Kinkaid have no future here. Schneider at the very least isn't good enough to be an NHL starter anymore. Kinkaid never was good enough to be an NHL starter. Neither of these guys are the future and I'd give it a 70%-ish chance that neither are here next year.

Blackwood may or may not have a future here and we'll find out more about him by playing him more down the stretch.
 

Bleedred

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Pretty sure I've always been a cory critic. Back before it was "cool".
Just like I've always be a kk supporter, long before that was "cool".

I'm not sold on blackwood.... still think we called him up during a hot stretch and will have a limit at some point. Again, not a popular opinion here

I think Johnson has a better chance to be kk like. From what I've seen he has the skillset, but needs to develop alot more. He also plays a hybrid style, which for me is an automatic plus over butterfly goalies solely from a longevity/injury prone aspect. Hybrids usually tend to get injured alot more bc of all the dropping to the ice on every shot, or shot attempt.
The problem with goalies who aren't butterfly goalies these days is that none of them are very good.

I mean, Quick is the only guy that plays like Marty or Hasek that's any good.

Pavelec played like them and he blew, and he retired from hockey at 30 years old because he wasn't any good.
 

bobilly45

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I dont think kk goes anywhere at the deadline, we have 0 depth currently.

Next season I dont believe both kk and cory will be back, it will be one or the other. Still believe kk gets a starting gig, but is it with us? Does lou take one of them as the isles goalie is only signed for this year and he drafted both kk and traded for cory at the draft.
I'm very curious to also see how Johnson develops and if he gets a full pre season game next year.
 

bobilly45

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The problem with goalies who aren't butterfly goalies these days is that none of them are very good.

I mean, Quick is the only guy that plays like Marty or Hasek that's any good.

Pavelec played like them and he blew, and he retired from hockey at 30 years old because he wasn't any good.
Quick is a butterfly goalie
 
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