Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) part IV

[JimEIV]

Or players who aren't playing well now could play better. Or we could stop taking a bunch of dumb penalties. Or making dumb mental errors. It seems weird how pretty much the exact same roster as last year is somehow written off after a bad 7 games.

I wouldn't say I am writing any of them off...but something has to be done if you don't want the season to slip away.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

This is why I kept complaining about all the 2nd and 3rd round picks we wasted over the last year.

Just the picks in the Johansson, Maroon and Grabner deals are practically an entire draft year worth of prospects.

Maroon 2019 3rd
Grabner 2018 2nd
Johansson 2018 2nd and 2018 3rd
We gave a 2018 3rd in the Vatanen deal

That's 5 top 100 picks.

You don't do that if you're a rebuilding team, especially on the rentals... I could understand on Vatanen and Johansson cause you think that they could become part of a long term plan...but thats still a lot of picks without a lot to show for it

No you ****ing did not

On Johansson...

On Maroon...

You want to gripe about the trade in hindsight? Lame, but be my guest. But don't you dare jump on a high horse and tell the rest of us that "you've been saying all along..."

Check mate.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Just give me something to discuss Shero!!

 

[OmNomNom]

No you ****ing did not

On Johansson...

View attachment 151965

On Maroon...

View attachment 151967

You want to gripe about the trade in hindsight? Lame, but be my guest. But don't you dare jump on a high horse and tell the rest of us that "you've been saying all along..."

Check mate.

how long did this take you to search, jeez

 

[JimEIV]

No you ****ing did not

On Johansson...

View attachment 151965

On Maroon...

View attachment 151967

You want to gripe about the trade in hindsight? Be my guest. But don't you dare jump on a high horse and tell the rest of us that "you've been saying all along..."

Check mate.

Looking at 3rd in 2019 and Dudek in a vacuum vs looking at the year in review is a very different conversation. When you look back and realize you gave up a slew of picks it's a hell of a lot different than one individually.

It is like talking about bad spending habits... the $3 coffee every morning looks meaningless until you realize you've spent over $1000 at Starbucks last year

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Looking at 3rd in 2019 and Dudek in a vacuum vs looking at the year in review a is very different conversation. When you look back and realize you gave up a slew of picks it's a hell of different than one individually.

It is like talking about bad spending habits the $3 coffee every morning looks meaningless until you realize you've spent over $1000 at Starbucks last year

No, no, you just said you "kept" complaining... implying you complained throughout. And that simply isn't the case.

I distinctly remembered you loving the Maroon trade and writing that big blurb about it (because I agreed with you)... did some quick digging, and, alas, you do talk out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[OmNomNom]

Looking at 3rd in 2019 and Dudek in a vacuum vs looking at the year in review a is very different conversation. When you look back and realize you gave up a slew of picks it's a hell of a lot different than one individually.

It is like talking about bad spending habits... the $3 coffee every morning looks meaningless until you realize you've spent over $1000 at Starbucks last year

you can't say the 4 trades listed weren't logical though, especially at the time.

the only reason anyone is complaining right now is because we're in a losing streak

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

If you were really fed up with "purging" picks in deals, wouldn't you have said "enough already" at the Maroon deal? Instead of drafting a four-part post praising the move?

 

[JimEIV]

If you were really fed up with "purging" picks in deals, wouldn't you have said "enough already" at the Maroon deal? Instead of drafting a four-part post praising the move?

I started talking about it after the Grabner deal.

 

[NJDevs26]

you can't say the 4 trades listed weren't logical though, especially at the time.

the only reason anyone is complaining right now is because we're in a losing streak

And because Johansson's been god-awful as a Devil. That's a big factor in the whole meme of wasting five picks, he was supposed to be part of the long-term solution, not just a guy that plays 80-100 ineffective games and then gets booted out.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

I started talking about it after the Grabner deal.

The Grabner deal happened about a week before the Maroon deal.

 

[JimEIV]

No, no, you just said you "kept" complaining... implying you complained throughout. And that simply isn't the case.

I distinctly remembered you loving the Maroon trade and wrote that big blurb about it (because I agreed with you)... did some quick digging, and, alas, you do talk out of both sides of your mouth.

The 2nd in the Grabner deal was going to be a top 50 pick for an obvious rental... We not only gave up a top 50 pick we gave a LHD prospect which we were lacking to a divisional rival.

But I would also say again you are conflating two different things...the individual trade discussion and burning asset discussion.

 

[NJDevs26]

This is why I kept complaining about all the 2nd and 3rd round picks we wasted over the last year.

Just the picks in the Johansson, Maroon and Grabner deals are practically an entire draft year worth of prospects.

Maroon 2019 3rd
Grabner 2018 2nd
Johansson 2018 2nd and 2018 3rd
We gave a 2018 3rd in the Vatanen deal

That's 5 top 100 picks.

They got back a 3rd for Henrique re-siging there so really it's 4. The Maroon pick was well worth it to make the playoffs, they don't make it without him. Johansson's been a bust so far, but I have no issue with the idea of the trade. Really we're back to Grabner being the only complain-worthy trade.

 

[JimEIV]

They got back a 3rd for Henrique re-siging there so really it's 4.

I never even mentioned the 2nd for Mueller. From that summer to the trade deadline we gave 3 2nd round picks.

 

[NJDevs26]

I never even mentioned the 2nd for Mueller. From that summer to the trade deadline we gave 3 2nd round picks.

And he's a starting defenseman currently on the top pair. I'd hardly call that a waste. Sometimes players are worth more than lottery tickets.

Other than Grabner and Maroon Shero's not giving picks for 30+ year old rentals, he's trying to trade them for actual long-term solutions.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

The 2nd in the Grabner deal was going to be a top 50 pick for an obvious rental... We not only gave up a top 50 pick we gave a LHD prospect which we were lacking to a divisional rival.

But I would also say again you are conflating two different things...the individual trade discussion and burning asset discussion.

It's funny how things shook out, because I think the "obvious" rental at the time was Maroon. On paper, Grabner fit the team like a glove, and I think part of the impetus for pulling trigger was that it gave the organization an inside track to sign him in July.

It ended up being Maroon who fit the team like the glove, so he was the guy Shero tried to re-sign. In hindsight, sure, Grabner was a waste, but it made a lot of sense at the time. You could argue the package we surrendered, but the logic there was crystal-clear.

Re: my "conflation"... I think people can draw their own conclusions.

 

[Blender]

And he's a starting defenseman currently on the top pair. I'd hardly call that a waste. Sometimes players are worth more than lottery tickets.

The Mueller trade is looking great right now based on his performance this season. The chances of getting a quality NHLer from a 2nd round pick isn't great, and we have one playing an important role right now.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

losing a couple games really makes a bunch of people here lose their minds huh?

 

[JimEIV]

And he's a starting defenseman currently on the top pair. I'd hardly call that a waste. Sometimes players are worth more than lottery tickets.

Other than Grabner and Maroon Shero's not giving picks for 30+ year old rentals, he's trying to trade them for actual long-term solutions.

A 2nd for starting Dman could never be a waste but again when you look at the totality and the mass of the picks we gave up it is significant.

In the retrospective, I don't think we got as much as we gave.

 

[MadDevil]

losing a couple games really makes a bunch of people here lose their minds huh?

I particularly love the "I told you so" crowd, half of which never actually told us so to begin with, or just change the goalposts when called on their bullshit.

 

[JimEIV]

The Mueller trade is looking great right now based on his performance this season. The chances of getting a quality NHLer from a 2nd round pick isn't great, and we have one playing an important role right now.

The 2nd round produces a lot of very good Dmen.

You realize the majority of our defense were not 1st picks right? In fact Mueller is the only one.

Greene Ufa NCAA
Butcher UFA NCAA 5th round pick before he went ufa
Ben Lovejoy UFA NCAA not us though.
Severson 2nd
Santini 2nd
Vatanen 4th

 

[Blender]

The 2nd round produces a lot of very good Dmen.

You realize the majority of our defense were not 1st picks right? In fact Mueller is the only one.

Greene Ufa NCAA
Butcher UFA NCAA
Ben Lovejoy UFA NCAA not us though.
Severson 2nd
Santini 2nd
Vatanen 4th

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131

Depending on where you end up drafting in the 2nd round, the chances of getting a top 6 forwards or top 4 defenseman range from 10.8% to 6.7%.

 

[Devils731]

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131

Depending on where you end up drafting in the 2nd round, the chances of getting a top 6 forwards or top 4 defenseman range from 10.8% to 6.7%.

You forget, I get to tell you who I would have drafted in the second 3 or 4 years later. I often end up picking one of the best players in the draft at that point.

 

[OmNomNom]

A 2nd for starting Dman could never be a waste but again when you look at the totality and the mass of the picks we gave up it is significant.

In the retrospective, I don't think we got as much as we gave.

but using your coffee idea, just because i blew $100 on coffee in a month doesn't mean i didn't enjoy all 33 cups of my $3.33 coffee. it's a lot overall, but that doesn't make my past enjoyment nullified

 

[JimEIV]

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-nhl-draft-pick-value-1.786131

Depending on where you end up drafting in the 2nd round, the chances of getting a top 6 forwards or top 4 defenseman range from 10.8% to 6.7%.

So if we gave away 3 2nd round picks in the last year we gave up between a 20.1 and a 32.4 chance of getting a top 4 D dman or top 6 forward last year?

 

[OmNomNom]

So if we gave away 3 2nd round picks in the last year we gave up between a 20.1 and a 32.4 chance of getting a top 4 D dman or top 6 forward last year?

math don't work that way, i don't think