Devils 1st round draft pick forfeiture

Crease

Chief Justice of the HFNYR Court
Jul 12, 2004
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25,011
It's been said a million times but just to reiterate, the contract Kovalchuk walked out on is not the contract the Devils relinquish a draft pick for.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
I think that it is also pretty clear that the Devils were ok with shedding the rest of Kovy's deal. They can hardly argue for restitution based on something that was actually in their own best interests.

As to the Alfredsson case, I personally think the NHL would have had a pretty strong case for circumvention but decided that they would not pursue further action with respect to any deal signed prior to the new CBA.
 

NJDevils7

Registered User
Feb 13, 2007
2,120
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New York
I hope to god the NHL rejects any requests outright. Sucks that NJ lost Kovy, and I feel for the fans...but the stupidity/arrogance of Lou not giving that pick up the year they lost in the Cup Finals deserves the karma police stepping in and making an example of the Devils.

If they some how get out of the punishment..... :shakehead

Devils signed Kovy to a contract similar to other contracts (Hossa). Both cap circumvention. But the NHL decided that Kovy's was SO much worse, so they denied the contract, fined the team $3 million, took away a 3rd round pick and a first round pick. AND Kovy ended up retiring, AND the Devils are still paying $250,000 towards his contract every year until 2025. Is that not enough punishment?
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
25,438
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Waterloo Ontario
Devils signed Kovy to a contract similar to other contracts (Hossa). Both cap circumvention. But the NHL decided that Kovy's was SO much worse, so they denied the contract, fined the team $3 million, took away a 3rd round pick and a first round pick. AND Kovy ended up retiring, AND the Devils are still paying $250,000 towards his contract every year until 2025. Is that not enough punishment?

You are leaving out a detail here. The NHL had basically told teams that they would not tolerate any more such contracts and the Devils sent forth their deal in the face of this. You also have to remember that the fact that the NHL registered the Hossa deal did not mean that they could not find it to be cap circumvention at a later date.
 

Kane One

Moderator
Feb 6, 2010
43,087
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Brooklyn, New NY
Devils signed Kovy to a contract similar to other contracts (Hossa). Both cap circumvention. But the NHL decided that Kovy's was SO much worse, so they denied the contract, fined the team $3 million, took away a 3rd round pick and a first round pick. AND Kovy ended up retiring, AND the Devils are still paying $250,000 towards his contract every year until 2025. Is that not enough punishment?

Rules they broke:
1. Circumvention
2. That stupid cap benefit recapture (not necessarily breaking a rule, but I want to keep these two separate)

Punishments:
1. $3M, 1st and 3rd round pick
2. $250,000 on the cap until 2025

If you look at it like that, those are two different things. Some Devils fans here need to stop using Kovalchuk retiring as some sort of punishment for their circumvention of the cap.
 

Moskau

Registered User
Jun 30, 2004
19,978
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WNY
Rules they broke:
1. Circumvention
2. That stupid cap benefit recapture (not necessarily breaking a rule, but I want to keep these two separate)

Punishments:
1. $3M, 1st and 3rd round pick
2. $250,000 on the cap until 2025

If you look at it like that, those are two different things. Some Devils fans here need to stop using Kovalchuk retiring as some sort of punishment for their circumvention of the cap.

People also need to understand it's not as if Lou and the Devils submitted the contract once and were punished for it. They tried to bully the league around by submitting the same contract after it was shot down by the league. And apparently after it was shot down twice nicely by the league they were *******s and submitted it again like children. Obviously definitive word on what went down will never surface but from what has been written about the whole thing the Devils organization was incredibly obnoxious throughout the entire process. Lou also had his chance to forfeit the Matteau pick and didn't.

It sucks because ultimately the fans will pay for it by having to watch a crappy team with no reward for it. If I had to watch the Sabres without the hope of drafting Sam, Sam or Aaron I would probably become an alcoholic.
 

NJDevils7

Registered User
Feb 13, 2007
2,120
155
New York
You are leaving out a detail here. The NHL had basically told teams that they would not tolerate any more such contracts and the Devils sent forth their deal in the face of this. You also have to remember that the fact that the NHL registered the Hossa deal did not mean that they could not find it to be cap circumvention at a later date.

They didn't find the Hossa deal to be circumvention though, otherwise why wouldn't they punish Chicago?

People also need to understand it's not as if Lou and the Devils submitted the contract once and were punished for it. They tried to bully the league around by submitting the same contract after it was shot down by the league. And apparently after it was shot down twice nicely by the league they were *******s and submitted it again like children. Obviously definitive word on what went down will never surface but from what has been written about the whole thing the Devils organization was incredibly obnoxious throughout the entire process. Lou also had his chance to forfeit the Matteau pick and didn't.

Source? First time I have ever heard of this.
 

ScottyK

Hi, I'm mat.
Aug 28, 2008
35,336
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West of Chicago
People also need to understand it's not as if Lou and the Devils submitted the contract once and were punished for it. They tried to bully the league around by submitting the same contract after it was shot down by the league. And apparently after it was shot down twice nicely by the league they were *******s and submitted it again like children. Obviously definitive word on what went down will never surface but from what has been written about the whole thing the Devils organization was incredibly obnoxious throughout the entire process. Lou also had his chance to forfeit the Matteau pick and didn't.

It sucks because ultimately the fans will pay for it by having to watch a crappy team with no reward for it. If I had to watch the Sabres without the hope of drafting Sam, Sam or Aaron I would probably become an alcoholic.

Wrong, the Devils and the NHLPA and the league had meetings in NYC. The Devils only submitted one other contract ( the one that was eventually accepted ) the NHL and NHLPA hammered out a agreement to accept it which also took away the NHL's ability to shut down contracts like Kovy's until the next CBA.

Devil fans know this because we wrote into Bill Daly and asked why the Richards deal was accepted by the league and that was his response he wanted to look into that deal and possibly shut it down but he wasn't allowed to.

With enough searching on the Devils forum here on HF you can find transcripts of those emails.

I give Bill credit we gave him a hard time over 2 yrs but he personally responded to ALOT of our emails.
 

Garbs

Registered User
Jul 2, 2005
15,212
272
London, Ontario
Has Lou ever publically commented on why he decided to keep the 29th pick? If their pick ends up top 3/5, where does this rank in all-time executive blunders?
 

Moskau

Registered User
Jun 30, 2004
19,978
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WNY
Has Lou ever publically commented on why he decided to keep the 29th pick? If their pick ends up top 3/5, where does this rank in all-time executive blunders?
Didn't he say something about looking to the future and not the past? Along the lines of having a great season that they wanted to build off of.
 

Moskau

Registered User
Jun 30, 2004
19,978
4,743
WNY
Source? First time I have ever heard of this.
The other 15 times this thread has come up. I mentioned a year or so ago I felt the punishment was absurd and that the Devils would find a way to get it overturned but was told by various posters that the offer was submitted multiple times in a brute force manner. I guess this is wrong however according to Scottyk9 so maybe there is hope for Devils fans. Part of me thinks if it's a top 3 pick or so something can be done. Who knows and I guess we will find out soon.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
25,438
19,571
Waterloo Ontario
They didn't find the Hossa deal to be circumvention though, otherwise why wouldn't they punish Chicago?

The previous CBA clearly allowed for the League to bring action after the fact. It seems that with the new CBA existing contracts may be amnestied. At least that seems to be how Dailey stated things would be going forward. And as bad as the Hossa deal was the Kovy deal was significantly worse. The Devils offer for Kovy was a blatant in your face challenge to the CBA and to message the League was clearly sending out about its discontent with such deals.
 

Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
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They didn't find the Hossa deal to be circumvention though, otherwise why wouldn't they punish Chicago?

Kovalchuk's original contract was MUCH worse than Hossa's contract.

(Kovalchuk) 17 years vs. (Hossa) 12 years.

44 of age at time of retirement [something only 1 player in the League has ever done] vs. 42 years of age at time of retirement [done 6 times in the last 20 years-so still exceedingly rare]

97% of salary in the first 11 years [11/17= 65% of contract] vs. 85% of salary in the first 8 years [8/11 =66%].

7 "dead years" [defined as half of highest paid year] vs. 5 dead years. 5 of Kovy's years were at League minimum, while Hossa's where at 1 million each.

Kovalchuk's contract also switched from a NMC to a NTC in year 10.

Here is what the unbiased arbitrator said about the SPC:

The dynamics of this SPC, with particular reference to itsfinal six years, are such that there is scarce reason for either Player or Club tocontinue the relationship.

The incentives are strongly to the contrary. By year 11,the Player will have received $98,000,000 of his $102,000,000 contract, constituting some 97% of the bargain.
One may reasonably ask, as the League does, whether a player who had been averaging some $9,000,000 a year will be satisfied to continue the rigors of an NHL season for a salary that (1) will average slightly more than $550,000 a year, (2) will represent a 95% reduction against previous average earnings and (3) will undoubtedly constitute compensation well below the then-applicable major league minimum.

In short, Kovalchuk's rejected contract was MUCH worse than Hossa's. You can even see this in the Kovalchuk contract that the NHL accepted, which was just like Hossa's contract (end at 42, same amount of dead years at 1 million, no change in NMC/NTC).

Finally, they only punished the Devils' because the NHL took the issue to arbitration after the Devils' gave them such an open-and-shut case. The Hossa contract stayed within the confines that the NHL had deemed acceptable. The line in the sand. Kovalchuk's contract carefully built a furnished, lacquered ramp, then equipped rocket boosters to a motorcycle before proceeding to fly, fly, fly high across that line.
 

Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
24,134
23,681
Didn't he say something about looking to the future and not the past? Along the lines of having a great season that they wanted to build off of.

I thought his reasoning was that a 29th pick in 2012 would be ready sooner than a late pick in 2013. It's based on the idea that the 15-45 picks in a normal draft year are roughly similar- they're all talented, but have one fatal flaw (hockey sense, skating, being a goaltender, etc.).

Horrible asset management, but I can see the logic behind it.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Kovalchuk's original contract was MUCH worse than Hossa's contract.

(Kovalchuk) 17 years vs. (Hossa) 12 years.

44 of age at time of retirement [something only 1 player in the League has ever done] vs. 42 years of age at time of retirement [done 6 times in the last 20 years-so still exceedingly rare]

97% of salary in the first 11 years [11/17= 65% of contract] vs. 85% of salary in the first 8 years [8/11 =66%].

7 "dead years" [defined as half of highest paid year] vs. 5 dead years. 5 of Kovy's years were at League minimum, while Hossa's where at 1 million each.

Kovalchuk's contract also switched from a NMC to a NTC in year 10.

Here is what the unbiased arbitrator said about the SPC:



In short, Kovalchuk's rejected contract was MUCH worse than Hossa's. You can even see this in the Kovalchuk contract that the NHL accepted, which was just like Hossa's contract (end at 42, same amount of dead years at 1 million, no change in NMC/NTC).

Finally, they only punished the Devils' because the NHL took the issue to arbitration after the Devils' gave them such an open-and-shut case. The Hossa contract stayed within the confines that the NHL had deemed acceptable. The line in the sand. Kovalchuk's contract carefully built a furnished, lacquered ramp, then equipped rocket boosters to a motorcycle before proceeding to fly, fly, fly high across that line.

It really was absurd that the last 5 years on the rejected contract were at the current league minimum, in other words, they'd be below league minimum by the time they actually came up.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
I thought his reasoning was that a 29th pick in 2012 would be ready sooner than a late pick in 2013. It's based on the idea that the 15-45 picks in a normal draft year are roughly similar- they're all talented, but have one fatal flaw (hockey sense, skating, being a goaltender, etc.).

Horrible asset management, but I can see the logic behind it.

There was also a sense that he wanted to show upcoming UFAs, in particular Zach Parise, that he believed in the team going forward. Giving up the pick in 2012 would show that he didn't expect the team to do that well again.

That didn't work out well...
 

Garbs

Registered User
Jul 2, 2005
15,212
272
London, Ontario
There was also a sense that he wanted to show upcoming UFAs, in particular Zach Parise, that he believed in the team going forward. Giving up the pick in 2012 would show that he didn't expect the team to do that well again.

That didn't work out well...

Zach Parise isn't stupid, he knows how hard it is to go to the finals two years in a row. I can say with 100% confidence he wouldn't have blinked an eye if they gave up that pick.
 

TaiMaiShu

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
6,737
4
Has Lou ever publically commented on why he decided to keep the 29th pick? If their pick ends up top 3/5, where does this rank in all-time executive blunders?

I'd like to see this list. Lou will probably find a way to fight this and he might win. But it's hard to be optimistic.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
You dont think the league may want to appease new BILLIONAIRE owners that bought the franchise?

In Lou's 1st year as GM, he brought the league to court after the Schoenfeld-Koharski-Donutgate.

Now he has the backup of the lawyers of BILLIONAIRE owners.

lol total longshot but those are my thoughts


There are several billionaire owners in the NHL. Should they all get preferential treatment with regard to the CBA? (rhetorical question of sorts)
 

Mr Bojanglez

Registered User
Aug 17, 2007
12,383
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From Jersey w/ Love
Related, I'm curious to see what happens with Pronger and the Flyers.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...ever_going_to_play_again___team_confirms.html

The GM openly admitted he's never going to play again. Yet... he's on LTIR.

I was ok dealing with the nudge nudge, wink wink that is his LTIR status. But now Holmgrem openly admitted this. The Devils, whether you believe them or not, always denied they circumvented the cap. Holmgrem is openly admitting he is.

If nothing is done to Philly, I'll be furious. 35+ contract no less.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
36,952
220
϶(°o°)ϵ
Related, I'm curious to see what happens with Pronger and the Flyers.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...ever_going_to_play_again___team_confirms.html

The GM openly admitted he's never going to play again. Yet... he's on LTIR.

I was ok dealing with the nudge nudge, wink wink that is his LTIR status. But now Holmgrem openly admitted this. The Devils, whether you believe them or not, always denied they circumvented the cap. Holmgrem is openly admitting he is.

If nothing is done to Philly, I'll be furious. 35+ contract no less.

We have a thread for Pronger's case, consensus being that both parties are locked into place by the CBA. You can't force a player to retire, and just because he's indefinitely injured doesn't mean he has to retire.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1497437
 

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