GDT: Detroit Red Wings vs. Carolina Hurricanes | 10/22/2018 | 7:30PM ET | FSD

[raymond23]

He's not being targeted.

He's just really bad.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Steve Yzerman has no larger influence on what shapes him as a manager than Ken Holland. Listen to him talk about it. He isn't that different a guy. He employees the guy that Jeff Blashill developed a system with and have both used coming through the ranks. My problem with the champion of Yzerman is that most of the folks doing it don't seem to understand that while doing it. I want him to come home, but that is mostly because I don't think Yzerman is worlds different than Holland and the rebuild has already commenced. He gets you in free agent rooms and he does some other things in terms of aggressiveness that I like. It makes sense to have him moving forward, I do hope Holland stays though in some form, I believe the narrative that he is going to Seattle though.

Still what happened to Holland and this team wasn't completely avoidable, the miracle was that he avoided it the first time while redoing it on the fly. I don't think any less of him today than I did a while ago. But I have a different take on coaches and management in professional sports than most where luck and timing is important. If you stay around long enough you get yourself into trouble if people demand perfection no matter what, it is one of the things Bowman talks about at length.

I am hopeful that Stevie can bring Verbeek back and some of the talent we let him leave with, that was a very large mistake by the Ilitch family in my opinion. But it is what it is. We have to endure this painful period, hopefully The Captain does come home. Because frankly I like watching the Red Wings even more when he is a part of the organization, that might be silly but it is true for this guy. However, I don't think had we handed the team to Yzerman a while ago it would be going any different. I have liked the last couple years in terms of what is being done, we just have to stay the course and not reach out for anything quick at this point. We are in it, see it through the correct way is all I ask of whatever person is in charge of this team. I also expect that of the coaches and players, there are some dark days here and hopefully the short term future before we get back to being a good team again.

Agree with what Frk said, it's a copycat league so it's no surprise the Wings try to do what other franchises do. I put the blame 80% on Holland and 20% on Blashill. So Blashill is a factor but not the primary factor. If we had more talent he'd get better results. I don't view him as one of the top 5 coaches in the league and at this point it really doesn't matter.

Totally disagree with regard to Yzerman. He uses all the tools at his disposal to improve his team. His overall drafting is orders of magnitude better than Holland's. He proactively makes trades to address needs, Detroit has had by far the fewest trades in the league since the 2005 lockout. We've only recently started trading roster players due to missing the playoffs, which isn't proactive at all. It's reactive. Yzerman doesn't have a roster littered with awful contracts the way the Red Wings have. Holland's only real tool that he's used extensively is locking in his over the hill players to crippling contracts. Yzerman is a much better GM at this point because he uses all the tools at his disposal and the results speak for themselves. It's funny how some people on here dismiss getting lottery picks, ie tanking, because the Edmonton Oilers continue to flounder despite winning multiple lotteries; but then they want to suggest Yzerman was gifted his roster. No, that's not the case at all. He had some nice building blocks, but were they really in better shape than Edmonton in terms of sheer talent when he took over? I don't think so.

So who do you want to run this organization when we have Jack Hughes, Filip Zadina, Dylan Larkin, Joe Veleno, and Dennis Cholowski on the roster? Do you want the guy who's proven over the past 15 years he cannot draft outside the top half of the first round at a time when it will be critical to build out depth, or do you want the guy who has drafted Brayden Point in the 3rd round, Namestnikov 27th overall, Kucherov in the 2nd round, and Palat in the 7th round?

 

[Frk It]

Agree with what Frk said, it's a copycat league so it's no surprise the Wings try to do what other franchises do. I put the blame 80% on Holland and 20% on Blashill. So Blashill is a factor but not the primary factor. If we had more talent he'd get better results. I don't view him as one of the top 5 coaches in the league and at this point it really doesn't matter.

Totally disagree with regard to Yzerman. He uses all the tools at his disposal to improve his team. His overall drafting is orders of magnitude better than Holland's. He proactively makes trades to address needs, Detroit has had by far the fewest trades in the league since the 2005 lockout. We've only recently started trading roster players due to missing the playoffs, which isn't proactive at all. It's reactive. Yzerman doesn't have a roster littered with awful contracts the way the Red Wings have. Holland's only real tool that he's used extensively is locking in his over the hill players to crippling contracts. Yzerman is a much better GM at this point because he uses all the tools at his disposal and the results speak for themselves. It's funny how some people on here dismiss getting lottery picks, ie tanking, because the Edmonton Oilers continue to flounder despite winning multiple lotteries; but then they want to suggest Yzerman was gifted his roster. No, that's not the case at all. He had some nice building blocks, but were they really in better shape than Edmonton in terms of sheer talent when he took over? I don't think so.

So who do you want to run this organization when we have Jack Hughes, Filip Zadina, Dylan Larkin, Joe Veleno, and Dennis Cholowski on the roster? Do you want the guy who's proven over the past 15 years he cannot draft outside the top half of the first round at a time when it will be critical to build out depth, or do you want the guy who has drafted Brayden Point in the 3rd round, Namestnikov 27th overall, Kucherov in the 2nd round, and Palat in the 7th round?

I think TZE was saying they would like to keep Holland as an advisor (like Jimmy D),not necessarily as the GM.

Seems like everyone is pretty on board with Stevie coming in for the most part.

 

[ricky0034]

What more would you like him to install when they cannot execute the basics?

I will say this is a Babcock tree deal, Sportsnet spent the lunch hour ripping the unimaginative breakout the Leafs currently employ about 30 minutes in today. But they at least show capability of doing his three different breakout variations, and the call for more makes sense. We cannot do simple stuff, stringing passes together and that kind of stuff is more a player issue currently. I don't think Blashill has been great in Detroit, I think the issue is with the players more than the system. His system is run in Tampa and the slight variations he has made to them came from Babcock. So he has a system that runs based on the tenants being employed by Tampa and Toronto. I mean but we will keep talking about the system like it isn't an execution problem... Okay then.

Jeff Blashill isn't teaching or asking the guys to do what they did for a large majority of the game last night. Debate he has lost this team. But to open these threads and see people talking about his system over and over, guys like Kronwall said they didn't even play their designed system last night and that was a part of what had him clearly upset.

We can change it, but Scotty Bowman cannot fix what is a problem on this team. They are bad hockey players that execute at a poor level. That is the recipe for the basement finish we are getting. You can change the captain who is on this sinking ship, but rest assured the ship is still sinking, our talent level is the gaping hole in the side of this thing causing us to take on water.

and what? the entire team suddenly can't execute basics because of what? coincidence that has nothing to do with the coach? rookies aside these are guys that have been around a while and didn't have these difficulties under previous coaches yet the longer they play under Blashill the more problems with it they seem to have

the coach bears some responsibility for execution too,especially when it's clearly been getting worse and worse the longer he's been with the team

 

[Run the Jewels]

and what? the entire team suddenly can't execute basics because of what? coincidence that has nothing to do with the coach? rookies aside these are guys that have been around a while and didn't have these difficulties under previous coaches yet the longer they play under Blashill the more problems with it they seem to have

the coach bears some responsibility for execution too,especially when it's clearly been getting worse and worse the longer he's been with the team

It's funny how the people who want to give Holland credit for the playoff streak are the same people who rip Babcock's coaching. It was actually Babcock who was responsible for the final years of the playoff streak. How many coaches would have made the playoffs in 2012-13 when Z and Datsyuk were both injured and David Legwand was acquired to be our #1 center?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Agree with what Frk said, it's a copycat league so it's no surprise the Wings try to do what other franchises do. I put the blame 80% on Holland and 20% on Blashill. So Blashill is a factor but not the primary factor. If we had more talent he'd get better results. I don't view him as one of the top 5 coaches in the league and at this point it really doesn't matter.

Totally disagree with regard to Yzerman. He uses all the tools at his disposal to improve his team. His overall drafting is orders of magnitude better than Holland's. He proactively makes trades to address needs, Detroit has had by far the fewest trades in the league since the 2005 lockout. We've only recently started trading roster players due to missing the playoffs, which isn't proactive at all. It's reactive. Yzerman doesn't have a roster littered with awful contracts the way the Red Wings have. Holland's only real tool that he's used extensively is locking in his over the hill players to crippling contracts. Yzerman is a much better GM at this point because he uses all the tools at his disposal and the results speak for themselves. It's funny how some people on here dismiss getting lottery picks, ie tanking, because the Edmonton Oilers continue to flounder despite winning multiple lotteries; but then they want to suggest Yzerman was gifted his roster. No, that's not the case at all. He had some nice building blocks, but were they really in better shape than Edmonton in terms of sheer talent when he took over? I don't think so.

So who do you want to run this organization when we have Jack Hughes, Filip Zadina, Dylan Larkin, Joe Veleno, and Dennis Cholowski on the roster? Do you want the guy who's proven over the past 15 years he cannot draft outside the top half of the first round at a time when it will be critical to build out depth, or do you want the guy who has drafted Brayden Point in the 3rd round, Namestnikov 27th overall, Kucherov in the 2nd round, and Palat in the 7th round?

Most of this post argues two different scenarios so I don't know what to say. We handed Yzerman half of our scouting staff when he left, in particular Verbeek leaving was a mistake. Stamkos and Hedman are pretty big pieces to have in place. I don't think he was gifted them, he had to make significant decisions on that team, but two of his foundation pieces are in place but that is a part of why he picked them over Minnesota. But let's not pretend he took over the same kind of team, he took over a basement team coming out of where we are now. So I can agree that is encouraging if he gets here he has Larkin, Cholo and some big swings to take in the draft maybe a free agent or two.

Sorry if you don't have the Athletic but they did a rundown with Yzerman talking about what he learned from Holland. Of course he ended it with this

“I believe [with] everything he’s done, he deserves the time to rebuild it now,” Yzerman said. “He deserves the time and the respect of everyone to rebuild it.”

Clarity coming regarding Ken Holland's future in Detroit

I do believe he is coming home despite that quote, but among the things he credits Holland with is his day to day approach and contract negotiations. Calling his time under his mentor the greatest education you can have was another part of this. Look at it however you want, Ken Holland is really important to Steve Yzerman.

I know people think there were a lot of tools to save this, I just think father time is undefeated and there was realistically little ability to have this happen a third time in terms of building a new championship core. I am excited for Stevie to come back, I hope there is a role for Holland, though I think he will be the point person in Seattle and I wish him luck along with being thankful for his impact on the Detroit Red Wings for three decades and being massive part of giving us the best franchise for a quarter of a century. But, that is really big picture and not everyone has to look at that.