Post-Game Talk: Detroit Red Wings @ Toronto Maple Leafs | 7PM ET | FSD

[Pavels Dog]

Zadina, AA, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen. You only need 4 wingers in your top 6. There's also Berggren hopefully.

Rasmussen might end up at center still. Him, Bert and AA could also be on the 3rd line, as could Nyquist or even Zadina to start. Berggren could easily be 3+ years away.

Why not? Why should we at all be entranced by the possibility of maybe making a playoff spot? The team's current place in the standings is a mirage and isn't sustainable over multiple seasons. There are serious flaws in the roster that have to be addressed.

Those flaws don't have to be addressed by the 2019 draft and only the 2019 draft. And while a late 1st for Nyquist would be great, we all know what this team is truly lacking is the kind of player usually found near the very top of the draft.

Veterans can fit in. But Nyquist is 29. He is only just now on pace for 60+ points. Do you anticipate him continuing this type of production on a consistent enough basis to justify keeping him?

How much do you think Nyquist is going to ask for in free agency? Do you think the team should risk losing him for nothing because he could possibly be a solid veteran down the line?

All legit questions. Hopefully by the TDL some of those questions are easier to answer. Or that the team is either solidly in or solidly outside the playoffs so the decision to sell or not is made easier.

 

[Heaton]

Rasmussen might end up at center still. Him, Bert and AA could also be on the 3rd line, as could Nyquist or even Zadina to start. Berggren could easily be 3+ years away.

Nyquist is going to want a 7-8 year deal at 6m+ per, he saw what Abdelkader got and Nyquist has produced at a much higher level than Abdelakder his entire career. Would you be in favor of Nyquist being locked up for 7 years at 6m+ a season?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Nyquist is going to want a 7-8 year deal at 6m+ per, he saw what Abdelkader got and Nyquist has produced at a much higher level than Abdelakder his entire career. Would you be in favor of Nyquist being locked up for 7 years at 6m+ a season?

No. But I think Nyquist’s low production the last few years, especially low goal scoring, and lack of being physical or a PKer works against his ability to demand a very high salary. I’d be surprised if he gets that kind of deal in the open market or from us.

 

[Heaton]

No. But I think Nyquist’s low production the last few years, especially low goal scoring, and lack of being physical or a PKer works against his ability to demand a very high salary. I’d be surprised if he gets that kind of deal in the open market or from us.

Abdelkader wouldn't have gotten the deal he got without his production playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Players get paid based on their point totals, especially when they hit UFA. Nyquist has been a consistent 40+ point getter his entire career, he makes 4.75m right now and this is his last contract he's going to get at a high number. Abdelkader has two 40 point seasons and one 20 goal season, Nyquist is on pace for his sixth 40+ point season in a row and he's on pace for a career year point wise.

He's going to get at least 6m regardless of term. We don't need that on this team for any term.

 

[The Zermanator]

Rasmussen might end up at center still. Him, Bert and AA could also be on the 3rd line, as could Nyquist or even Zadina to start. Berggren could easily be 3+ years away.

With Larkin and Veleno, plus the centre we're likely to pick this coming draft, looking more and more like Rasmussen is going to be pushed to the wing. AA is not looking like a 3rd line guy at all anymore, and Zadina is top 6 for sure (barring a massive disappointment). Bertuzzi can play up and down the lineup but he has good offensive instincts so having a guy with his physical dimension is good to have on the top lines, especially with the style that this team is developing.

Sure Zadina might be a couple years away (though I think he'll be pushing a top 6 spot by next season), and Berggren several years away. But we have to think more than 1-3 years out, especially since Nyquist will surely be pushing for term as this will be his last big contract before the decline of his career. Do we really want a 6M+ winger long term on our 3rd line, especially when all the young guys are gonna start getting into their more expensive years?

With the way he's producing, Nyquist will easily bring back at least a 1st, we could possibly even get a decent prospect out of a desperate team if we're lucky. He needs to be dealt. If there's a possibility of bringing him back on a decent contract that doesn't hamper us with the team that is being built, that can be explored in the summer. Right after we draft our 2nd player in the 1st round with the pick we got from trading Nyquist.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Abdelkader wouldn't have gotten the deal he got without his production playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Players get paid based on their point totals, especially when they hit UFA. Nyquist has been a consistent 40+ point getter his entire career, he makes 4.75m right now and this is his last contract he's going to get at a high number. Abdelkader has two 40 point seasons and one 20 goal season, Nyquist is on pace for his sixth 40+ point season in a row and he's on pace for a career year point wise.

He's going to get at least 6m regardless of term. We don't need that on this team for any term.

Doesn't have to be his last contract. He could sign a 2-3 year deal. And point totals are not the only factor in salary, and even if it was 40 points don't immediately translate to 6+ million. He will get a decent contract but it's not like he has been tearing it up during this current contract. I don't see for example why he would get much more than Tatar got.

With the way he's producing, Nyquist will easily bring back at least a 1st, we could possibly even get a decent prospect out of a desperate team if we're lucky. He needs to be dealt. If there's a possibility of bringing him back on a decent contract that doesn't hamper us with the team that is being built, that can be explored in the summer. Right after we draft our 2nd player in the 1st round with the pick we got from trading Nyquist.

Yeah hopefully with that 1st round pick we can draft a replacement for Larkin after he asks for a trade to a team that WON'T sell big pieces of the roster when the team is battling for a playoff spot.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Doesn't have to be his last contract. He could sign a 2-3 year deal. And point totals are not the only factor in salary, and even if it was 40 points don't immediately translate to 6+ million. He will get a decent contract but it's not like he has been tearing it up during this current contract. I don't see for example why he would get much more than Tatar got.

the cap is higher and tatar had RFA year left. 6M seems about on par with what tatar got based on that. not convinced he gets that much though.

Yeah hopefully with that 1st round pick we can draft a replacement for Larkin after he asks for a trade to a team that WON'T sell big pieces of the roster when the team is battling for a playoff spot.

- larkin should understand that long-term interests outweigh the short-term interests at this point.

- even if he doesn't and doesn't like the trade at all, pretty big leap to assume or even suggest that he might, maybe ask for a trade.

- even if he does ask for a trade, he's not going to get it unless it makes sense for the wings, under contract for 5 more years. and if he does ask for a trade bc of that (which he won't), good riddance

 

[Heaton]

I don't see for example why he would get much more than Tatar got.

Why not? He's better than Tatar and has better career numbers. He's getting more than 5.3 during his first chance at the UFA market.

Yeah hopefully with that 1st round pick we can draft a replacement for Larkin after he asks for a trade to a team that WON'T sell big pieces of the roster when the team is battling for a playoff spot.

Wait, you think this team should try to make the playoffs? Why?

Unless the rebuild is over, this team needs more high picks, we don't have the pieces to start contending.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why not? He's better than Tatar and has better career numbers. He's getting more than 5.3 during his first chance at the UFA market.




Wait, you think this team should try to make the playoffs? Why?

Unless the rebuild is over, this team needs more high picks, we don't have the pieces to start contending.

His goalscoring has been low the last several years. Goals get you money. Maybe he gets a bit more but I'm not convinced 6+ million is a lock.

And it doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what our position in the standings is. If we find ourselves in solid ground with a playoff spot, should we still sell because someone decides we don't have enough high picks on the roster? At what point do we have enough? Who decides? Does there need to be a hard line in between rebuilding and contending? No room for actually watching the young players grow, no chance the rebuild can continue even if the team has a good year and makes a run for the playoffs?

 

[Winger98]

You sell Nyquist regardless of where we are in the standings if the return is good. He should pull at least a first, which is the minimum it should take to pull the trigger. Does it hurt our team a bit down the stretch? Yes, but you then have room to add Zadina to the lineup. You also deal Jensen because Jensen just isn't that good and he's not worth giving a raise to.

 

[taliababa]

His goalscoring has been low the last several years. Goals get you money. Maybe he gets a bit more but I'm not convinced 6+ million is a lock.

And it doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what our position in the standings is. If we find ourselves in solid ground with a playoff spot, should we still sell because someone decides we don't have enough high picks on the roster? At what point do we have enough? Who decides? Does there need to be a hard line in between rebuilding and contending? No room for actually watching the young players grow, no chance the rebuild can continue even if the team has a good year and makes a run for the playoffs?

We've had 2 high picks and neither are exactly setting the world on fire. One is in the AHL and showing positive signs, the other I'm still not convinced will be that good of a player. We have 1 young star and a few potential solid players. The notion that the rebuild is even close to being done is ludicrous, unless you're content with being the Calgary Flames of the 2000's.

 

[SCD]

We've had 2 high picks and neither are exactly setting the world on fire. One is in the AHL and showing positive signs, the other I'm still not convinced will be that good of a player. We have 1 young star and a few potential solid players. The notion that the rebuild is even close to being done is ludicrous, unless you're content with being the Calgary Flames of the 2000's.

Can you elaborate as to who you are referring to.

 

[Heaton]

His goalscoring has been low the last several years. Goals get you money. Maybe he gets a bit more but I'm not convinced 6+ million is a lock.

And it doesn't matter what I think, what matters is what our position in the standings is. If we find ourselves in solid ground with a playoff spot, should we still sell because someone decides we don't have enough high picks on the roster? At what point do we have enough? Who decides? Does there need to be a hard line in between rebuilding and contending? No room for actually watching the young players grow, no chance the rebuild can continue even if the team has a good year and makes a run for the playoffs?

Your post is baffling to me. Do you think this team has enough high end talent in the pipeline to become contenders? Or do you think that the likes of Larkin, AA, Mantha, Zadina, Cholowski, Hronek are good enough to become elite players and contend with the best teams in the league? If not, how do we get those players if we're making 'runs' at the playoffs and not drafting high?

I honestly have never understood your position, I get you want to defend Holland, but that's not how any of this works. You build through high picks in the draft.

But regardless, this team isn't making the playoffs so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Ezekial]

Can you elaborate as to who you referring to.

Rasmussen and Zadina, our two high picks.

 

[JoesuffP]

At least a first for Nyquist? You guys are dreaming

Believe it or not but the Wings will still have draft picks if they make the playoffs. You can still get better without A top 5 pick. This discusssion has been done ad naseum it’s exhausting. No team in the NHL is going to give up on a season when they are in a playoff spot. It’s never been done and it’s not stupid of Holland to keep the team together if that’s what happens. Every GM in the league would do the same thing.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If not, how do we get those players if we're making 'runs' at the playoffs and not drafting high?

Because a team can fight for playoffs one season, and finish bottom 5 the next. A team can even finish just outside the playoffs and draft top 3.
We don't need to be terrible for the entire duration of a rebuilding process.

As for whether I think we have enough talent? I don't pretend to know. Probably we need another core building block or two, but if we're fighting for a playoff spot this season what would you do? It's not like I'm saying "don't trade Nyquist under any circumstance!". If we were a bottom 5 team I wouldn't talk about us needing to go out and trade picks and prospects for immediate help to push for playoffs. That you bring in "defending Holland" shows you completely misunderstand the argument.

We've had 2 high picks and neither are exactly setting the world on fire. One is in the AHL and showing positive signs, the other I'm still not convinced will be that good of a player. We have 1 young star and a few potential solid players. The notion that the rebuild is even close to being done is ludicrous, unless you're content with being the Calgary Flames of the 2000's.

Who said anything about the rebuild being close to done? I've said multiple times I don't believe a rebuild is EVER done. You're constantly looking for more pieces and replacement pieces.
I think it's a foolish notion to believe you're ever going to be sitting comfortably in your chair saying "this is done, we have all the pieces, nothing more is needed". That doesn't happen until MAYBE when you've won the cup, for a small moment, then you start thinking about what is needed to repeat.

 

[Heaton]

At least a first for Nyquist? You guys are dreaming

Believe it or not but the Wings will still have draft picks if they make the playoffs. You can still get better without A top 5 pick. This discusssion has been done ad naseum it’s exhausting. No team in the NHL is going to give up on a season when they are in a playoff spot. It’s never been done and it’s not stupid of Holland to keep the team together if that’s what happens. Every GM in the league would do the same thing.

Most GM's do really stupid things every year, so I'm not surprised so many only think about the short term.

And trading Nyquist, isn't 'giving up', if Holland is thinking about extending him long term he's going to be signing another anchor contract that the next GM is going to have to deal with.

 

[Gniwder]

You sell Nyquist regardless of where we are in the standings if the return is good. He should pull at least a first, which is the minimum it should take to pull the trigger. Does it hurt our team a bit down the stretch? Yes, but you then have room to add Zadina to the lineup. You also deal Jensen because Jensen just isn't that good and he's not worth giving a raise to.

You sell anything if the return is high enough, for Nyquist it would have to be at least a first. No point in selling for less, late 2nd rounders usually don't amount to much.

Jensen makes $825k, he'll wind up making $1M. that's reasonable for a 7D. Kronwall is retiring after this season, the team will need another D next year. Assuming Hronek makes the team, they still need Jensen as 7D. Better than having Lashoff, Sulak, or Hicketts. If not, Holland is going to overpay for another washed up UFA D-man.

 

[Ezekial]

At least a first for Nyquist? You guys are dreaming

He's playing extremely well and is not a product of anyone. He's produced everywhere he's put. That's important to pro scouts, it's the type of thing they look for in a deadline acquisition.
WHEN they finally decide they should move him, they will, and he will garner a return that is conducive to our rebuild.
We're 6th in the Atlantic, I doubt that changes to 5th at any point this season.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We're 6th in the Atlantic, I doubt that changes to 5th at any point this season.

3 points behind 5th, with 50+ games to go. Yeah it's hard to imagine such a wide gap could ever be overcome in such a limited amount of games.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

3 points behind 5th, with 50+ games to go. Yeah it's hard to imagine such a wide gap could ever be overcome in such a limited amount of games.

I would be surprised if we can track that position down. I know it only looks like three points but this month is pretty brutal schedule wise. We have four good home games left this month, but even then we probably drop at least one and maybe we get one on the road we shouldn't. That still puts us ideally taking 4 out the final 11 of the month. That sinks us in the standing more than helps us. Our homestand that bridges the end of this month and goes into January is brutal too with Calgary, Nashville and Washington all in one after the other.

The sink that a few of us were saying was likely to happen after Thanksgiving is happening. We are a four win team over our last ten, we are fading again. Tough part of the schedule so expected, but yeah I don't think we are chasing down much now. Great fight and I like how hard they are playing, but there is only so much you can do without enough talent in this league in my opinion. Hoping the young guys can keep this energy up through this expected rough patch.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I would be surprised if we can track that position down. I know it only looks like three points but this month is pretty brutal schedule wise. We have four good home games left this month, but even then we probably drop at least one and maybe we get one on the road we shouldn't. That still puts us ideally taking 4 out the final 11 of the month. That sinks us in the standing more than helps us. Our homestand that bridges the end of this month and goes into January is brutal too with Calgary, Nashville and Washington all in one after the other.

The sink that a few of us were saying was likely to happen after Thanksgiving is happening. We are a four win team over our last ten, we are fading again. Tough part of the schedule so expected, but yeah I don't think we are chasing down much now. Great fight and I like how hard they are playing, but there is only so much you can do without enough talent in this league in my opinion. Hoping the young guys can keep this energy up through this expected rough patch.

We've also had some injuries lately with Dekeyser, Bertuzzi and Mantha missing games. If they stay afloat anywhere near .500 through these injuries they could make up ground after getting healthy. There's too much hockey left to play to make any guarantees for anything.

 

[Winger98]

You sell anything if the return is high enough, for Nyquist it would have to be at least a first. No point in selling for less, late 2nd rounders usually don't amount to much.

Jensen makes $825k, he'll wind up making $1M. that's reasonable for a 7D. Kronwall is retiring after this season, the team will need another D next year. Assuming Hronek makes the team, they still need Jensen as 7D. Better than having Lashoff, Sulak, or Hicketts. If not, Holland is going to overpay for another washed up UFA D-man.

I'm seeing Jensen hoping for something more than $1m per and the 7th D slot. He's holding down 20 minutes a night for us this season and isn't putting up bad numbers. He also skates like crazy which is huge in the league right now. Maybe Jensen will re-sign on the low end for us, but I'm not sure why he wouldn't test the market and try to get that one decent sized contract for the next several years. He keeps playing as he has, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him get $3m per for a few years.

Unless Holland deals Daley or Ericsson this year, I'd be happy going into this summer with E, Green, Daley, Cholo, Hronek, and Dekeyser. Then going big on Karlsson or looking to see what cheap, older vet we can sign to a 2 year deal.