Speculation: Detroit Red Wings - all time team?

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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he is the best player of this era which basically automatically puts him in conversation with one of the best.. just not best of the best. he's not ahead of jagr at this point, i agree with that. jagr had the longevity (still going strong lol) and higher peak and prime. basically only case is the pace but i'm not sure if it's really more dominant that what jagr had. prime jagr never lost scoring race to player like henrik sedin (no offence to him) though one can't ignore the years when he was sulking in washington. so if crosby keeps this up, he can pass him. have to stay healthy, though.

I get your one of the best, but to be honest if Trotz can flop Ovie a Cup that becomes a significant argument as well, because frankly (yes a lot of it is due to injury) Crosby didn't deliver what we thought he would by now. I am curious to see how this all sorts out, I don't think he is Top 5 bound like many do though, I have a hard time seeing it. Really Ovie winning a couple cups becomes a more compelling player to make that argument with.
 

Frk It

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Jul 27, 2010
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The fact that Crosby is 4th in career ppg, in a much lower scoring era than everyone else around him for career ppg, is a really hard thing to ignore. And I hate Crosby. But his production for the era he plays in is insane.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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The fact that Crosby is 4th in career ppg, in a much lower scoring era than everyone else around him for career ppg, is a really hard thing to ignore. And I hate Crosby. But his production for the era he plays in is insane.

Really the only things that hold him back are his injuries and lack of playoff success. Though the latter is unfair to hold against one player. I think Crosby finally pulled ahead of the Yzerman/Sakic tier and is heading toward the Jagr tier. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires with 4 Hart trophies which would be damn impressive.
 

InjuredChoker

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I get your one of the best, but to be honest if Trotz can flop Ovie a Cup that becomes a significant argument as well, because frankly (yes a lot of it is due to injury) Crosby didn't deliver what we thought he would by now. I am curious to see how this all sorts out, I don't think he is Top 5 bound like many do though, I have a hard time seeing it. Really Ovie winning a couple cups becomes a more compelling player to make that argument with.

yes.. i thought crosby would be better too.

he's not the bull that he used to be. that will probably help him have longer career but he's become little more one-dimensional. doesn't drive to the net the same way or shoot the puck as much. also has lost some speed imo. whether it was the high ankle sprain or whatever, he never really took the next step after winning the hart. might have headed towards that in 10-11 though.

The fact that Crosby is 4th in career ppg, in a much lower scoring era than everyone else around him for career ppg, is a really hard thing to ignore. And I hate Crosby. But his production for the era he plays in is insane.

scoring league wide it's not that much different than what lindros, forsberg, jagr and co had during DPE.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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scoring league wide it's not that much different than what lindros, forsberg, jagr and co had during DPE.

Right, but when we compare players across eras it's always comparing in terms of relative dominance against peers. It's how we compare someone like Howie Morenz to Bobby Hull, players separated by 40 years of history. Crosby dominates his peers more so than Lindros and Forsberg did. Crosby has been either the best or second best player of the last 7 years. I think worse case scenario, he'll be a top 20 player when he retires, more likely closer to top 10/15 player.
 

InjuredChoker

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Right, but when we compare players across eras it's always comparing in terms of relative dominance against peers. It's how we compare someone like Howie Morenz to Bobby Hull, players separated by 40 years of history. Crosby dominates his peers more so than Lindros and Forsberg did. Crosby has been either the best or second best player of the last 7 years. I think worse case scenario, he'll be a top 20 player when he retires, more likely closer to top 10/15 player.

going up against sedins and getzlaf's is nice but doesn't compare going up against lemieux, sakic, bure, jagr and so on.

competition was tougher back then so i'm giving them some leeway.

i agree he is better and/or headed to being better than lindros and foppa.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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Crosby would have to go on a terrific tear to enter any debate involving Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. That is the discussion tabled often and he doesn't belong as number 5 right now. Who would your #5 be? For me that is probably Rocket. I have hard time seeing him pass Jagr as well. Anybody have him going over Messier? He trends pretty similar to Trottier or Yzerman to be honest and I think that is generous.

Obviously, he'll never be in that discussion with those first 4 names you mentioned. Probably not Hull, Beliveau, or Richard either. He'll place anywhere between 8-20 if he continues the way he has over the next 5 years, assuming he stays healthy. He's going to win his second hart, and there's no reason to assume he won't win a third or maybe a 4th. Winning a Conn Smythe would help too, and I wouldn't doubt that happening either.(Though who knows, maybe he'll never make the finals again) We'll see where he ranks among Jagr, Morenz, Shore, Harvey, Hasek, Roy, and Plante.

People can put up point pace and dominance in spurts, but it is becoming harder as he continues to fail on delivering championships and is outshone by his teammate in the one that was delivered. I just don't see it and he doesn't belong with the titans of the game, he could get there but he has to get on it.

Fair enough, though I think the Penguins problem is a relatively easy one to remedy. They just need more depth. They don't have a Talbot, Staal, Armstrong, Fedotenko anymore. Their bottom 6 is crappy, but the thing is, it's much easier to fill in the bottom 6 than the top 6.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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going up against sedins and getzlaf's is nice but doesn't compare going up against lemieux, sakic, bure, jagr and so on.

competition was tougher back then so i'm giving them some leeway.

i agree he is better and/or headed to being better than lindros and foppa.

How do you compare Crosby to the Trottier's, Yzerman's, Sakic's, and Clarke's?
 

The Zetterberg Era

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How do you compare Crosby to the Trottier's, Yzerman's, Sakic's, and Clarke's?

See this is the group he belongs with to me. I guess they are in the pantheon of the game so poor word choice. What I was getting at though is the Rushmore questions in terms of Crosby. That seems so ultimately unattainable and kind of borderline ridiculous.

I was getting at it before but Ovie has a much better chance in terms of historical arguments. He very well could get to greatest left winger. His problem is winning the big one, but his stacks up quite well. He is really only chasing the Golden Jet probably, who won what one championship in the NHL and one in the WHA. I think it is fair to say he has passed or will Lindsay, Shanahan, and Lucky Luc. Once again underscoring for this thread how lucky we have been in terms of some of the guys that have suited up, that is probably your top five.

We will see, 10-20 just inside of the top 10 and a lot will come down to pace. Bossy played with a lame back the last couple years, how insane was his pace? How good could have prime Lindros been had he learned to keep his head up?

I just got ripped to shreds for pointing out the paces of both Durnan and Dryden. Well they along with Orr and probably Bossy have some of the more attractive didn't play long but my God were they good. Bure and Lindros, to some extent you know who he matches up with well right now is Forsberg. A great player that missed a lot of time, but won a couple Harts and was quite frankly a better player in both the playoffs and internationally than Crosby. We will see how much farther he can move it on down the road, but Crosby even in his shortened career with the beautiful pace arguments just doesn't fit with the Kings he is often placed with.

Once again this isn't that he isn't the best player in the world, it isn't that he isn't a sure fire HHOF. It is where does this debate truly take place, for me he is pretty far off Rushmore. Ultimately I think it is unattainable, we will see, to me Ovie has a better chance to historically impact the game in terms of if he can find a couple Cups here.
 

InjuredChoker

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How do you compare Crosby to the Trottier's, Yzerman's, Sakic's, and Clarke's?

clarke
sakic
yzerman
trottier
crosby

i think he ends up ahead of at least sakic. though sakic/trottier/yzerman are all really close for me. basically even.

all had longevity on him, obviously and prime too. arguably prime too. crosby's best seasons or season won't match up with them. he gets the advantage of 2nd hart but the sakic/trottier/Y had better competition.

now that i think of it more closely, his prime is pretty close though. but overall isn't above them but definitely in the same tier. and will be ahead of all of them in the end, gotta stay healthy to beat clarke though.
 
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Retire91

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Brodure is a great golaie but his team is what put him in the top 5 argument. He played for the most defensivley centered team in the last 25 years of the NHL. Look at the top scorers of the Devils over the last 25 years and realize that was a cup condending team. All they did was trap trap trap and Brodure's save percentage was a product of that. He is a rich man's Osgood.
 

14ari13

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Brodure is a great golaie but his team is what put him in the top 5 argument. He played for the most defensivley centered team in the last 25 years of the NHL. Look at the top scorers of the Devils over the last 25 years and realize that was a cup condending team. All they did was trap trap trap and Brodure's save percentage was a product of that. He is a rich man's Osgood.

How many cups they won with Stevens? How many without him?
 

Lord Stan 2020

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I think because of history if you were building all time team you would take a look at these numbers before saying who should be there and who should not.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/leaders_career.html

Is also the debate of how many games played etc..

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/display_players.php?tmi=5492

We have had quite the history.

I think Howe would play now and dominate. He was tough so isnt like a gretzky debate on how well he would play which I think is mostly garbage myself.

We have seen guys who played with yzerman and gretzky and others still play well today very well honestly. Jagr and others. So I think you would really get a lot of the same results.

One guy I am sure of or would be is HOWE cause of how tough he played etc.. His game would translate to todays NHL and he would be a beast.
 

DangleDangleBeach

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Oct 5, 2009
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Fun topic! you could make an arguement most of the players people have mentioned. My players are all in their prime and on level playing field :)

Howe Delvecchio Lindsay
Shanny Yzerman Hull
Federov Larionov Datsyuk
Zberg Ullman Abel
Ogrodnick

Lidstrom Fetisov
Kelly Larson
Chelios Coffee
Murph

Sawchuk
Hasek
Ozzie
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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So Mlive's been doing that best at each position thing. I think we can all be in agreement that the Red Wings best starting line up, if you only consider their careers as Red Wings would be:

Lindsay-Yzerman-Howe
Lidstrom-Kelly
Sawchuk


Right?
 

odin1981

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Not that Yzerman is lacking but would he really be best with them? Would his playing style gel with the wingers? That is what makes it hard. I personally would be more apt to usually place same era players together cause you saw them work together. Granted just a personal thing though. But I would lean on Delvecchio in this case.

Please understand I am not slighting Stevie Y in even the smallest of sense. He is a all time great. But I would feel more comfortable pairing him with a 98-02 forward group. It is just really freaking difficult to compare contrast players from differant era's of a time span longer than a decade or so.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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So Mlive's been doing that best at each position thing. I think we can all be in agreement that the Red Wings best starting line up, if you only consider their careers as Red Wings would be:

Lindsay-Yzerman-Howe
Lidstrom-Kelly
Sawchuk


Right?

I might go Fedorov over Lindsay, but that's because I'm ludicrously high on what Fedorov did in Detroit. Had he retired instead of leaving to Anaheim, his number might be up in the rafters right now.

That's the only real argument I see that can be made though.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

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Not that Yzerman is lacking but would he really be best with them? Would his playing style gel with the wingers? That is what makes it hard. I personally would be more apt to usually place same era players together cause you saw them work together. Granted just a personal thing though. But I would lean on Delvecchio in this case.

Please understand I am not slighting Stevie Y in even the smallest of sense. He is a all time great. But I would feel more comfortable pairing him with a 98-02 forward group. It is just really freaking difficult to compare contrast players from differant era's of a time span longer than a decade or so.

I assume it is taking the best player of each position(at least on Mlive), in which Yzerman is definitely the best center to ever play with the organization.
 

Cursed Lemon

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Man, I'm just salivating over the classic line combinations.

Howe - Delvecchio/Abel - Lindsay
Fedorov - Yzerman - Shanahan
Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Hull
McCarty - Draper - Maltby/Kocur

Lidstrom - Chelios
Konstantinov - Fetisov
Kronwall - Murphy

Hasek
Osgood

I don't know if this team would be the best possible Red Wings lineup or if it would necessarily beat other teams' all-star combinations, but god DAMN would I watch the **** out of the hockey they played.
 
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MMANumminen

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May 7, 2010
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Datsyuk-Yzerman-Howe
Zetterberg-Larionov-Hull
Shanahan-Fedorov-Ciccarelli
Kocur-Probert-McCarthy

Coffey-Lidström
Konstantinov-Chelios
Fetisov-Kronwall

Hasek
Osgood

Bowman
 

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