Speculation: Detroit Red Wings - all time team?

[NyquistIsMyGod*]

My 2000-2014 Detroit Red Wings line-up.

- Mike Modano for example would be used as the Moadno that played for Detroit instead of the superstar from Dallas
- I was born in 94, so the early 2000s I wasn't exactly that old. Cool?
- Using prime seasons

Henrik Zetterberg-Pavel Datsyuk-Bret Hull
Brendan Shanahan-Sergei Fedorov-Marian Hossa
Luc Robitaille-Steve Yzerman-Johan Franzen
Dallas Drake-Kris Draper-Darren McCarty/Kirk Maltby

Nick Lidstrom-Brian Rafalski
Niklas Kronwall-Chrs Chelios
Brad Stuart - Mathieu Schneider

Dom Hasek
Jimmy Howard

- Didn't put much effort
- Didn't look at statistics
- Top of my head
- Yes I probably forgot a few players

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not knocking drapper in any way here, huge fan. To me there are just better options than Drapper. Fedorov and Daytsuk for example bring Selke defense, but they also have outstanding offense. So they get the nod for a defense role while also being a threat to score.

Same arguement for me on Probert. I think to many people get caught up on Probert being an enforcer specialist and forget that he has some pretty notable offense when he was put in a top 6 role.

When you can build a team of players that can fill specialist roles while also putting up major offense I think Draper falls off the list.

I'm just trying to imagine teams playing this lineup where one of Howe, Shanahan, Probert, Chelios, or Konstantinov are always on the ice for grit, while at the same time one of Daytsuk, Fedorov, Lidstrom are also likely to be there for non-gritty yet elite shutdown D but transition to elite offense as well.

To me Drapper is top on defense but I wouldn't want a line where the offense stops when its not necessary due to the depth wings have on players who provide 2-way.

Bob Probert played on trash teams, pretty bad Wings teams before the upswing, then Hawks teams on a down swing.

He had the 29 goal season in an extremely high scoring era. Probert was more than just a thug, but he also never played on elite teams which explains some of his chances to produce.

Draper (there is no second p by the way) scored Stanley Cup game winning goals, goals at World Championships and World Cups. He owns the second high water mark in goals between the two of them at 24 goals in 03-04 in the height of hooking and holding obstruction hockey.

He brings elite speed, face-off ability, that 20 goal season came in one of the only times he spent time out at the wing and was asked to score. In all actuality both probably don't come all that close to a greatest Red Wings list, but the idea of needing that much toughness is overkill. As you stated a Red Wings greatest team would already be scary tough, do they need Probert? You could carry Probert as your 13th forward and insert him against Boston and Philly all-time teams as they are the only teams where that would be necessary.

When you talk specialist though, both are at the top of the heap of their specialty and that is from an all-time in the game standpoint not just in Wings jersey in my opinion.

 

[PelagicJoe]

Yet a fair number of people put up the draper line ??? Granted everyone has there own opinion and Detroit is one of the few teams that could make more than one team. It just seems shocking to me that most lists are very 90's and 00's centric.

I'm hard pressed to think of anyone I would rather have on my penalty kill unit than prime Draper & Maltby. They had great hockey chemistry together, which is why they pretty much were always paired together.

 

[PelagicJoe]

And to the OP: AWESOME THREAD!

 

[odin1981]

I'm hard pressed to think of anyone I would rather have on my penalty kill unit than prime Draper & Maltby. They had great hockey chemistry together, which is why they pretty much were always paired together.

Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Yzerman 2 way players that can score as well. I could see maybe Draper as a 14th forward but even then that is a stretch. My knowledge of the 60's or earlier players isn't the best either but those 4 right there are two pk pairings right there. You would need to come up with one more line of pk players and it wouldn't suprise me if Delleveccio (spelling my bad I know) and one other old time player (hell a prime Larinov wouldn't be bad at it either it would be bad ass to see lari and dats on a line ) could do the job in addition to bringing a bunch of offense. Maltby, Kocur, and Probert wouldn't even sniff the roster. Lets be honest Draper was the man at what he did but he isn't anywhere near the level of a Guy Carb (not even trying to spell the rest of his last name out) or Gainey type of player.

 

[Henkka]

Didn't we have some same kind of Voting Thread at last summer or earlier?

I'd like to see those results. It was made one by one, greatest Red Wing ever etc.

And just put those guys to their playing positions to get a team...

 

[Retire91]

Yeah that is true Drapes scored some key goals in the playoffs I guess I could come up to being on the fence with him. I just think the wings have so many players that bring what he does +.

I just like the idea of having overwhelming toughness with probert. He is like a shock and awe component. I don't put my roster out there as the best its just the team I would like to see. Shanny Chelios and Howe were tough and could fight but Probert could end people and with the star power on this team someone like Matt Cooke would be on a head hunting feild day an need to be ended. Even if he does struggle to score in todays NHL the rest of the roster more than makes up. Maybe in this version Probie gets hooked up with a pro sports councilor and dumps all that coke and booze and just lives the game and keeps up in the scoring category.

I included Aurie becasue I always heard he was an amazing heart and sole guy. Someone to help glue the team together. Probie, Aurie, and Kozlov are my weak points but I'll throw in there for the chemical mix I am looking for.

 

[PelagicJoe]

Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Yzerman 2 way players that can score as well. I could see maybe Draper as a 14th forward but even then that is a stretch. My knowledge of the 60's or earlier players isn't the best either but those 4 right there are two pk pairings right there. You would need to come up with one more line of pk players and it wouldn't suprise me if Delleveccio (spelling my bad I know) and one other old time player (hell a prime Larinov wouldn't be bad at it either it would be bad ass to see lari and dats on a line ) could do the job in addition to bringing a bunch of offense. Maltby, Kocur, and Probert wouldn't even sniff the roster. Lets be honest Draper was the man at what he did but he isn't anywhere near the level of a Guy Carb (not even trying to spell the rest of his last name out) or Gainey type of player.

Like someone else said, it's so hard to pick just 12 guys considering our team's history.

Even on D, I wasn't sure if I wanted to pair Lids with Coffey or Konstantinov. Hell, even Murphy would have been a great pairing.

 

[odin1981]

Like someone else said, it's so hard to pick just 12 guys considering our team's history.

Even on D, I wasn't sure if I wanted to pair Lids with Coffey or Konstantinov. Hell, even Murphy would have been a great pairing.

Oh i don't disagree with you we are more than likely one of three teams in the league where this would be really hard to make just one roster. It's just some of the bodies on the lines just seem wtf really? I know people are proud of what players did in the time that they saw and such but some of them just don't add up when you consider the history of the team. Hell I haven't even attempted to make up a roster off "my team" cause it would be really hard.

 

[Kronwalled55]

that played a very big role, yes. but how you compare against your peers is the most important thing here.

i'm not sure if brodeur deserves to be in top 5 all time, though.

Brodeur is easily a top 5 goaltender of all time.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Brodeur is easily a top 5 goaltender of all time.

hasek, roy, plante, sawchuk and hall disagree.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

hasek, roy, plante, sawchuk and hall disagree.

Yeah it is all a matter of opinion, a lot of people would get bent out of shape, but you could make an argument Roy isn't even a top 3 net-minder in terms of the Habs.

I do take Plante over him. Then of course you have arguments for both Durnan and Dryden.

Roy comes out on the short end of the stick believe it or not in terms of his era. If you go by career longevity statistics Brodeur wins, in terms of spectacular or flat out dominance it is Hasek.

I know people really like Roy, but his standing in the game is at times too high for me. Realize I am in the minority. Also would have been interesting to watch Marty for 10 more years of the NHL not legislating out one of his biggest attributes, just saying look at his numbers anyway and think about them without a trapezoid league.

 

[InjuredChoker]

you can't make argument roy isn't in top for habs goalies. maybe for career with the habs but even that's iffy.

can't even make solid case for toy not being top-3 goalie all time imo.

only player to win 3 smythe's and even in different decades. revolutionized the position. though his regular season peak was over after early 90s, it was still very good and his playoff performances knock basically anyone else out of the water.

brodeur has longevity on him but that's it. same with ron francis on lemieux. strong case can be made for hasek (i think they are pretty even, flip a coin) but he doesn't have the same playoff performances.


you are definitely in the minority with that one.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

hasek, roy, plante, sawchuk and hall disagree.

First 4 I'll give ya, but Broduer is better than Hall IMO.

 

[InjuredChoker]

First 4 I'll give ya, but Broduer is better than Hall IMO.

i'm fine with that. i actually have him above hall too but i'm biased.

i just don't think broduer has him beat easily.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yeah it is all a matter of opinion, a lot of people would get bent out of shape, but you could make an argument Roy isn't even a top 3 net-minder in terms of the Habs.

I do take Plante over him. Then of course you have arguments for both Durnan and Dryden.

Roy comes out on the short end of the stick believe it or not in terms of his era. If you go by career longevity statistics Brodeur wins, in terms of spectacular or flat out dominance it is Hasek.

I know people really like Roy, but his standing in the game is at times too high for me. Realize I am in the minority. Also would have been interesting to watch Marty for 10 more years of the NHL not legislating out one of his biggest attributes, just saying look at his numbers anyway and think about them without a trapezoid league.

There's a fairly large consensus that Roy is at least a top 3 goaltender ever to have played, many place him at #1. Usually the debate is between Hasek and Roy.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

you can't make argument roy isn't in top for habs goalies. maybe for career with the habs but even that's iffy.

can't even make solid case for toy not being top-3 goalie all time imo.

only player to win 3 smythe's and even in different decades. revolutionized the position. though his regular season peak was over after early 90s, it was still very good and his playoff performances knock basically anyone else out of the water.

brodeur has longevity on him but that's it. same with ron francis on lemieux. strong case can be made for hasek (i think they are pretty even, flip a coin) but he doesn't have the same playoff performances.


you are definitely in the minority with that one.

Roy is not better than Plante period. So that is the argument as far as the Habs, sorry don't care and not exactly completely alone either plenty of lists not caught up in the era have that argument.

His playoff record and stats are really not that much more remarkable than Osgood, put up your list again of what that means. Roy is a reputation goalie, a very good one but honestly both Hasek and Brodeur scared me more than Roy. I get that Brodeur will lose that argument a lot, though I would argue not a single team maybe 95 stacks up with a roster Roy took to a championship. The 93 Habs were the weakest team he took.

Ken Dryden basically never lost at hockey. Sure talk about his dominant teams, but as I was stating above how come that never factors in for Roy? Dryden converted at an insane Bill Russell pace. Sure both guys had great teams but they are substantial reasons for that and didn't lose at any phase in their respective careers all that much dating back to college as well.

Dryden and Durnan both have more NHL First All-Star teams, they have more Vezina trophies. Sure you can blame Hasek but you just staggeringly put Roy on his level and I do mean staggeringly. Hasek and Plante is the debate for greatest, I think they are a decent distance ahead of Dryden, Brodeur, Durnan, Hall, Sawchuk, Roy, Parent, Esposito and Gardiner. Sorry Roy is closer to Brodeur in any argument than he will ever be to Hasek. Hasek barely played on any good teams and when he did they went far.

But like I said it barely matters by any metric Chris Osgood is a top 10 all-time playoff goalie and you just said that doesn't matter. It is a balancing act, Roy is one of the all-time greats, but he isn't the best of his era either in skill or resume. He cannot win an argument. Once again for me he runs fourth in the Habs goalie debate, especially if you just look at what he accomplished in the jersey and compare him to the superstars that have manned the position.

It is what it is, I don't expect many to see it the same, the myth of Patrick Roy is too great even for the HHOF player to live up to. Not running him down, just disagreeing with those that vice lock him into the top three, I think there is plenty of debate even in terms of the Top 5. I can say I am glad we ended both of Roy's tenures with embarrassing blowouts as yes I am not a fan of the player or person that he is which makes it sweeter and probably one of the reasons I am not hook line and sinker bananas over his amazing status in the game. I think a lot of it is his style exploding into the game and his ability to use technology as a means to help further that style. He is certainly one of the all-time greats but I don't feel he is discussed with any serious notion with a lot of his competitors. In my opinion since he was not statistically the winner of his era (Brodeur) or the dominant goaltender of his era by reputation in terms of Vezina trophies and play (Hasek) Roy will tumble down these historical lists as we move farther away from him, with peoples desire to put people from their era into those debates, so at that point it will probably be wrong on some of the people passing him. I mean heck people want to discuss Crosby in terms of the really great pantheon players and that is hysterical right now.

 

[InjuredChoker]

His playoff record and stats are really not that much more remarkable than Osgood, put up your list again of what that means. Roy is a reputation goalie, a very good one but honestly both Hasek and Brodeur scared me more than Roy. I get that Brodeur will lose that argument a lot, though I would argue not a single team maybe 95 stacks up with a roster Roy took to a championship. The 93 Habs were the weakest team he took.

roy has higher sv% than osgood in almost twice as many games, even though he had played over 100 games in a much higher scoring era before osgood came into the league. roy had 92.3 sv% between 93-03 (osgood's first playoffs - roy's last). osgood had 91.1 sv%.

roy also has highest adjusted sv% in the playoffs (from HOH board) except for tim thomas who has faced like 5 times less shots.

that 93 is also one of the weakest to win the cup. 10 consecutive OT wins though lot of them were short. what team since has been worse, 06 canes?

2003 devils were stacked. that D was about as good as they get.

i also think that in a one must-win game, the goalie i'd least like to face is patrick roy.

Ken Dryden basically never lost at hockey. Sure talk about his dominant teams, but as I was stating above how come that never factors in for Roy? Dryden converted at an insane Bill Russell pace. Sure both guys had great teams but they are substantial reasons for that and didn't lose at any phase in their respective careers all that much dating back to college as well.

it is a factor with roy, at least for me. dryden doesn't have the longevity to beat roy.

hasek's dominance with the sabres isn't matched by roy (or anyone) but they do have pretty close career adjusted sv% in regular season.

durnan also lacks longevity to compete with roy.

Dryden and Durnan both have more NHL First All-Star teams, they have more Vezina trophies. Sure you can blame Hasek but you just staggeringly put Roy on his level and I do mean staggeringly. Hasek and Plante is the debate for greatest, I think they are a decent distance ahead of Dryden, Brodeur, Durnan, Hall, Sawchuk, Roy, Parent, Esposito and Gardiner. Sorry Roy is closer to Brodeur in any argument than he will ever be to Hasek. Hasek barely played on any good teams and when he did they went far.

hasek's case is hurt as his playoffs didn't match his regular season and for example things like when he refused to play in 06 for the sens in playoffs after the doctors had cleared him to play.

it's probably little unfair for hasek that he didn't play on as good teams as often.

But like I said it barely matters by any metric Chris Osgood is a top 10 all-time playoff goalie and you just said that doesn't matter. It is a balancing act, Roy is one of the all-time greats, but he isn't the best of his era either in skill or resume. He cannot win an argument. Once again for me he runs fourth in the Habs goalie debate, especially if you just look at what he accomplished in the jersey and compare him to the superstars that have manned the position.

using that adjusted sv% to counter league wide scoring, osgood is definitely not top-10. he was about average with goalies who had faced decent sample of shots in postseason (1000 shots iirc).

 

[InjuredChoker]

roy is blue, green is hasek and red is brodeur. brodeur fell off after his injury 08-09 so it doesn't matter that chart has only up to 07 season and those season didn't compare to hasek and roy's best anyway. that chart has sv% above league average. brodeur is very clear and distant third. he probably suffers a bit from devils arena being little picky on shot counts but not that much that it would explain the difference.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Roy is not better than Plante period. So that is the argument as far as the Habs, sorry don't care and not exactly completely alone either plenty of lists not caught up in the era have that argument.

His playoff record and stats are really not that much more remarkable than Osgood, put up your list again of what that means. Roy is a reputation goalie, a very good one but honestly both Hasek and Brodeur scared me more than Roy. I get that Brodeur will lose that argument a lot, though I would argue not a single team maybe 95 stacks up with a roster Roy took to a championship. The 93 Habs were the weakest team he took.

Ken Dryden basically never lost at hockey. Sure talk about his dominant teams, but as I was stating above how come that never factors in for Roy? Dryden converted at an insane Bill Russell pace. Sure both guys had great teams but they are substantial reasons for that and didn't lose at any phase in their respective careers all that much dating back to college as well.

Dryden and Durnan both have more NHL First All-Star teams, they have more Vezina trophies. Sure you can blame Hasek but you just staggeringly put Roy on his level and I do mean staggeringly. Hasek and Plante is the debate for greatest, I think they are a decent distance ahead of Dryden, Brodeur, Durnan, Hall, Sawchuk, Roy, Parent, Esposito and Gardiner. Sorry Roy is closer to Brodeur in any argument than he will ever be to Hasek. Hasek barely played on any good teams and when he did they went far.

But like I said it barely matters by any metric Chris Osgood is a top 10 all-time playoff goalie and you just said that doesn't matter. It is a balancing act, Roy is one of the all-time greats, but he isn't the best of his era either in skill or resume. He cannot win an argument. Once again for me he runs fourth in the Habs goalie debate, especially if you just look at what he accomplished in the jersey and compare him to the superstars that have manned the position.

It is what it is, I don't expect many to see it the same, the myth of Patrick Roy is too great even for the HHOF player to live up to. Not running him down, just disagreeing with those that vice lock him into the top three, I think there is plenty of debate even in terms of the Top 5. I can say I am glad we ended both of Roy's tenures with embarrassing blowouts as yes I am not a fan of the player or person that he is which makes it sweeter and probably one of the reasons I am not hook line and sinker bananas over his amazing status in the game. I think a lot of it is his style exploding into the game and his ability to use technology as a means to help further that style. He is certainly one of the all-time greats but I don't feel he is discussed with any serious notion with a lot of his competitors. In my opinion since he was not statistically the winner of his era (Brodeur) or the dominant goaltender of his era by reputation in terms of Vezina trophies and play (Hasek) Roy will tumble down these historical lists as we move farther away from him, with peoples desire to put people from their era into those debates, so at that point it will probably be wrong on some of the people passing him. I mean heck people want to discuss Crosby in terms of the really great pantheon players and that is hysterical right now.

Jesus Christ this post.

This is a good place to start: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1269997

There's so much wrong from top to bottom of your post. Good lord.

 

[SoupNazi]

Jesus Christ this post.

This is a good place to start: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1269997

There's so much wrong from top to bottom of your post. Good lord.

Like what? Please explain for us.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Jesus Christ this post.

This is a good place to start: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1269997

There's so much wrong from top to bottom of your post. Good lord.

I say in my opinion I don't rank Roy as highly as most people. You post a bunch of people who rank Roy too highly in my opinion with a lead into your quote that was special, great reading comprehension. It is an opinion on an opinion based website.

I think Roy is the first to try a style that has seen virtually everyone jump to that level of save percentage. He cheated in terms of obnoxious acceleration of equipment. Much of what everyone ******* about in terms of goalies today falls at his feet while he is only lauded for the first part and not many of the terrible consequences he brought to the position. See in that way when people trot that element out like Bobby Orr angle of argument it makes me laugh.

Sure he is in the Top 10, but there are compelling cases for other people. Is Dryden not a huge factor in the large goalie movement and he went down quite a bit?

I don't really care that much it just isn't an area where I care to agree with a lot of people. It could be that I found Brodeur and Hasek scarier, I just did.

Whatever worship at the temple of this *******. I think it is more than fair to debate whether or not Roy belongs over Dryden, Hall, Sawchuk, Durnan and Broduer. People act like that is an insulting place to be in history.

The greatest goalie debates and the greatest American hockey player debates I differ from the crowd. Jesus Christ I know, I have an opinion on a sport I have followed my whole life and watched a ton of.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Roy is not better than Plante period. So that is the argument as far as the Habs, sorry don't care and not exactly completely alone either plenty of lists not caught up in the era have that argument.

Plante, while among the most dominant goalies ever, and a top 3-5 goalie ever, did not dominate in the same way Roy did. Both played for very dominant teams, both faced great quality of competition, but you don't see how Roy has an argument for being better than Plante?

His playoff record and stats are really not that much more remarkable than Osgood, put up your list again of what that means. Roy is a reputation goalie, a very good one but honestly both Hasek and Brodeur scared me more than Roy. I get that Brodeur will lose that argument a lot, though I would argue not a single team maybe 95 stacks up with a roster Roy took to a championship. The 93 Habs were the weakest team he took.

What? Plante's 50's Habs were probably the most stacked teams in the history of the NHL. There's a reason they changed the rules regarding the power play because of these guys. Also, a reputation goalie? What. Check IC's graph.

Ken Dryden basically never lost at hockey. Sure talk about his dominant teams, but as I was stating above how come that never factors in for Roy? Dryden converted at an insane Bill Russell pace. Sure both guys had great teams but they are substantial reasons for that and didn't lose at any phase in their respective careers all that much dating back to college as well.

Dryden had a relatively short lived career, since he decided to break into politics and utilize his education. Dryden is tough to gauge, because the 70's Habs teams, some will argue, were even more dominant than the 50's Habs teams. But regardless, he was obviously a great goaltender. Obviously Dryden, Roy, and Plante are the three main goaltenders for the Habs.

Dryden and Durnan both have more NHL First All-Star teams, they have more Vezina trophies. Sure you can blame Hasek but you just staggeringly put Roy on his level and I do mean staggeringly. Hasek and Plante is the debate for greatest, I think they are a decent distance ahead of Dryden, Brodeur, Durnan, Hall, Sawchuk, Roy, Parent, Esposito and Gardiner. Sorry Roy is closer to Brodeur in any argument than he will ever be to Hasek. Hasek barely played on any good teams and when he did they went far.

Dryden and Durnan had less quality of competition than Roy did. That's not a knock against 30's and 70's goalies respectively, but there were less teams, less goalies, and the rules in the 90's benefited 90's goalies more than their predecessors.

But like I said it barely matters by any metric Chris Osgood is a top 10 all-time playoff goalie and you just said that doesn't matter. It is a balancing act, Roy is one of the all-time greats, but he isn't the best of his era either in skill or resume. He cannot win an argument. Once again for me he runs fourth in the Habs goalie debate, especially if you just look at what he accomplished in the jersey and compare him to the superstars that have manned the position.

Osgood is not a top 10 playoff goalie ever.

It is what it is, I don't expect many to see it the same, the myth of Patrick Roy is too great even for the HHOF player to live up to. Not running him down, just disagreeing with those that vice lock him into the top three, I think there is plenty of debate even in terms of the Top 5. I can say I am glad we ended both of Roy's tenures with embarrassing blowouts as yes I am not a fan of the player or person that he is which makes it sweeter and probably one of the reasons I am not hook line and sinker bananas over his amazing status in the game. I think a lot of it is his style exploding into the game and his ability to use technology as a means to help further that style. He is certainly one of the all-time greats but I don't feel he is discussed with any serious notion with a lot of his competitors. In my opinion since he was not statistically the winner of his era (Brodeur) or the dominant goaltender of his era by reputation in terms of Vezina trophies and play (Hasek) Roy will tumble down these historical lists as we move farther away from him, with peoples desire to put people from their era into those debates, so at that point it will probably be wrong on some of the people passing him. I mean heck people want to discuss Crosby in terms of the really great pantheon players and that is hysterical right now.

Crosby absolutely deserves to be discussed in the really great pantheon of players. He's about to win a 2nd Hart trophy, had he been healthy it would probably be his third, and should he stay healthy, there's honestly very little to assume he'll win more. It's all about dominance over relative competition, and he's dominating the NHL. By the time he retires, there's a very good chance he'll be a top 15 or even a top 10 player of all time. He all depends on his health and how guys like Tavares, Mackinnon, and Mcdavid develop in terms of giving him competition.


So in summary, the reason why your post is so wrong is because it contains an absurd amount of hyperbole.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Crosby would have to go on a terrific tear to enter any debate involving Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. That is the discussion tabled often and he doesn't belong as number 5 right now. Who would your #5 be? For me that is probably Rocket. I have hard time seeing him pass Jagr as well. Anybody have him going over Messier? He trends pretty similar to Trottier or Yzerman to be honest and I think that is generous.

People can put up point pace and dominance in spurts, but it is becoming harder as he continues to fail on delivering championships and is outshone by his teammate in the one that was delivered. I just don't see it and he doesn't belong with the titans of the game, he could get there but he has to get on it.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Crosby would have to go on a terrific tear to enter any debate involving Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. That is the discussion tabled often and he doesn't belong as number 5 right now. Who would your #5 be, for me that is probably Rocket. I have hard time seeing him pass Jagr as well.

People can put up point pace and dominance in spurts, but it is becoming harder as he continues to fail on delivering championships and is outshone by his teammate in the one that was delivered. I just don't see it and he doesn't belong with the titans of the game, he could get there but he has to get on it.

he is the best player of this era which basically automatically puts him in conversation with one of the best.. just not best of the best. he's not ahead of jagr at this point, i agree with that. jagr had the longevity (still going strong lol) and higher peak and prime. basically only case is the pace but i'm not sure if it's really more dominant that what jagr had. prime jagr never lost scoring race to player like henrik sedin (no offence to him) though one can't ignore the years when he was sulking in washington. so if crosby keeps this up, he can pass him. have to stay healthy, though.