Speculation: Detroit Red Wings - all time team?

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
I think Osgood is criminally undervalued, but... this is where we differentiate.

Belfour was a machine in his day. A gamebreaker. The fanfare in Chicago was because he single-handedly would carry the team, ala Hasek in Buffalo. His time in Dallas cemented that he could carry a team in the playoffs, as well. In both 1999 and 2000 he was the team MVP. I know Joe Nieuwendyk won the trophy, but believe it or not, many think that's because Belfour actually had a contentious relationship with the media. Meanwhile there's a good ol' boy like Joe with game winning goals. Immediately after Nieuwendyk received the Conn Smyth, he skated over to Belfour and had some words with him. A tip of the hat.

Then the goalie battle in 2000 between Brodeur and Belfour was insane. Two all-time greats at their peak.

Part of this position is probably impacted by the fact the Wings own Ed Belfour's soul.:laugh:

Hard to be scared of Eddie the Eagle when you're de-pants him constantly and he is making an *** out of himself attacking Lapointe and later Homer.

I will say they played around pretty similar times and have very similar numbers and it isn't like Ed was on bad teams.

Interestingly and it isn't on the same level, but it is kind of like the argument at hand, occasionally somebody points out Howard and Rinne have virtually identical numbers in their careers, certainly a different narrative they have when you talk about them.
 

PelagicJoe

Registered User
Mar 20, 2012
2,131
558
St. Louis, MO
Zetterberg - Yzerman - Howe
Shannahan - Fedorov - Hull
Robitaille - Datsyuk - Delvecchio
Abel - Draper - Ciccarelli

Probert/Maltby/Larionov as extra forwards

Lidstrom-Coffey
Fetisov-Konstantinov
Chelios- Larry Murphy

Steve Duchesne as 7th D


Hasek
Sawchuck
Vernon for 3rd string

This was harder than I thought it would be.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,150
2,369
Philadelphia
20101112_timo_1.png





this is why ozzie isn't HOFer.

While it's true Ozzie isn't a hall of famer, it is hard to compete in the same era as 3 of the top 5 goalies of all time.
 

Goalie guy

Registered User
Jul 8, 2011
3,063
444
Taylor MI
20101112_timo_1.png





this is why ozzie isn't HOFer.

Yes we all know he is a product of his team! Bla Bla Bla, He could very well have won the MVP for 07-08 playoffs! Look at his wins, playoffs wins. :shakehead:shakehead:shakehead
Osgood has more regular season wins than the likes of Dominik Hasek, Mike Vernon, Tom Barasso, Gump Worsley, and Billy Smith, and more playoff wins than Jacque Plante, Dominik Hasek, Curtis Joseph, Tom Barasso, Turk Broda, Terry Sawchuck, Gerry Cheevers, Glenn Hall, and Tony Esposito.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8458568
 
Last edited:

ap3x

Registered User
Jan 31, 2014
5,971
0
Stockholm
Octopus kid clearly hates Osgood to a laughable degree. Is Manny Legacy your neighbor? I have met Manny great guy, but maybe top 5 in terms of Wings goalies to play for the team during the Yzerman tenure and that is generous now that I listed them below pretty impossible to argue even that really. Honestly as a fan-base we should be outraged Osgood isn't a sure fire HHOF or will get in someday and we are actually meaner than anybody else in the hockey world to him, it is sickening.

Hasek, Osgood, Vernon, Cujo, and Howard already. I would actually put Cheveldae in front of Legacy too.

Also in terms of some of the argument Larry Murphy got hosed and he actually was Lidstrom's best partnership during his career, if not it was the late Brad McCrimmon. Rafalski probably ran third.

Schneider put up some nice points, but I would never put him on even a post Yzerman era team.

I admit being quite confused by listing Legace as a second goalie. And I'll give you that Murphy, McCrimmon and/or Rafalski may be a way better fit aside Lidström.
Still, I liked the overall concept and most of the guys named and in which pair they were listed.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,150
2,369
Philadelphia
that played a very big role, yes. but how you compare against your peers is the most important thing here.

i'm not sure if brodeur deserves to be in top 5 all time, though.

Of course, how you played against your peers is an extremely important metric in evaluating any player across time, but the 90's and 00's goaltending is extremely dense competition. Osgood was a good goaltender.
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,150
2,369
Philadelphia
But was he a HOF goaltender?

I said in the post before that one that he wasn't, but we shouldn't sell him short because of how he compares to 4 of the best goalies to have ever played. He was a good goaltender, backstopped our team to two Stanley Cups. May have won a Conn Smythe in 2009, arguably. I think if we go off the metric that an all time team is based off team contributions, Osgood backs up Sawchuk easily.
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,390
1,556
Truth be told - it was an incomplete post - I had listed off a bunch of guys for each of the positions and hadn't gotten to goaltenders and posted it up. Hence why I didn't write any rationale for the goalies

In truth, I'm not entirely sure why I listed Legace in that instance. I think I was flirting with the idea that Legace's career GAA and Save% in some small sample size (roughly 120 games or so) but for all intent and purpose, Osgood is the obvious 2nd choice on this list instead of Manny.

Sorry for the confusion
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,390
1,556
Octopus kid clearly hates Osgood to a laughable degree. Is Manny Legacy your neighbor? I have met Manny great guy, but maybe top 5 in terms of Wings goalies to play for the team during the Yzerman tenure and that is generous now that I listed them below pretty impossible to argue even that really. Honestly as a fan-base we should be outraged Osgood isn't a sure fire HHOF or will get in someday and we are actually meaner than anybody else in the hockey world to him, it is sickening.

Hasek, Osgood, Vernon, Cujo, and Howard already. I would actually put Cheveldae in front of Legacy too.

Also in terms of some of the argument Larry Murphy got hosed and he actually was Lidstrom's best partnership during his career, if not it was the late Brad McCrimmon. Rafalski probably ran third.

Schneider put up some nice points, but I would never put him on even a post Yzerman era team.

I think an argument could be made for Murphy and that was a tough decision to leave him off of the list. As for the Schneider decision, it came down to the 05-06 season where the defense was left with an immense hole in the lineup with Fischer suffering his heart attack.

That team relied on Wooley, Lilja, and Lebda, with a very green Kronwall to spot fill alongside Lidstrom, Chelios and Schneider. This was a heroic campaign for that defense to keep it together and since Lidstrom and Chelios were on the list already for other seasons - Schneider was a big part of why that team was able to keep it together and stabilize and win the President's. Despite a miserable loss to the Oilers in the first round, Schneider also led the Wings in the first round with 8pts in 6 games.

A 20g + season from a defensemen in a pretty outstanding season by any measure and should be recognized as such. I always thought Schneider was never appreciated to the full measure of what he brought to the team. Specifically, that year he was #1 in goals for defensemen, #7 overall in points, and #4 in plus/minus (+33).

All of this combined puts together a pretty solid season across any statistical measure, need to step up and make up for the loss of a player, and elevating their game in the playoffs. I think you could look across the Wings defense by season and be hard pressed to find a stronger case. Although you're right, if there is one, it's most likely Murphy.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,033
881
Canton Mi
Why so very little consideration for Lindsay or Aurie? Is it just because so few people saw them and such?
 

JPE123

Registered User
Jan 23, 2013
3,153
10
Howe would be an elite superstar. He had the hockey IQ and the body. It's not like he wouldn't adapt.

He makes a modern star like Toews look like a little punk.

howeelbows.jpg


He'd be fine and then some.

Toews is a little punk
 

Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
6,135
1,563
Here is my roster just for fun:
Zetterberg - Yzerman - Probert
Lindsy - Able - Howe
Shannahan- Datsyuk - Aurie
Fedorov - Larionov - Kozlov

Lidstrom - Kelly
Chelios - Larsson
Fetisov - Konstantinov

Sawchuck
Mrazek :sarcasm:

Coach: Scotty Bowman

Unbeatable goalie, world class HOF punishing defense, 2 high scoring knock your block off lines, followed by 2 high scoring lines with world class defensive forwards.

I don't really like including Kozlov but the Russian 5 were the most dominant 5 man unit I have seen since the 80's oilers. I'm keeping the Russian 5 and the Production line in tact.

To me the Russian 5 are better than having the grind line, the other team won't touch the puck and if they do you have world class defense and one of the best defensive centers in the leauge in Fedorov who also has 100 point capability.

I put Mrazek in there because after Sawchuck I don't feel like there is an elite goalie, IMO Hasek was not with us long enough to make the cut so I put our elite goalie of the future.

Before dismissing Probert check out is career season. Imagine merging these numbers with one of the most intimidating people to every lace em up.
Regular season Playoffs
GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
74 29 33 62 398 16 8 13 21 51
 
Last edited:

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
11,301
1,178
Man, Datsyuk and Zetterberg can't even play together on many of these all-time rosters. And don't give me the center depth argument!
 

thom

Registered User
Mar 6, 2012
2,261
8
Good pts many of todays players could not play in 1950s-the game was to tough and too violent
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
Why so very little consideration for Lindsay or Aurie? Is it just because so few people saw them and such?

Aurie is not good enough to crack an all-time Red Wings team, that is in fact a large part of why he isn't in the HHOF and the Ilitch's made the decision to not honor his number. I think it is a mind-numbingly mean decision, but in the context of creating the greatest Wings teams he really doesn't factor.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,033
881
Canton Mi
Aurie is not good enough to crack an all-time Red Wings team, that is in fact a large part of why he isn't in the HHOF and the Ilitch's made the decision to not honor his number. I think it is a mind-numbingly mean decision, but in the context of creating the greatest Wings teams he really doesn't factor.

Yet a fair number of people put up the draper line ??? Granted everyone has there own opinion and Detroit is one of the few teams that could make more than one team. It just seems shocking to me that most lists are very 90's and 00's centric.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
Yet a fair number of people put up the draper line ??? Granted everyone has there own opinion and Detroit is one of the few teams that could make more than one team. It just seems shocking to me that most lists are very 90's and 00's centric.

Kris Draper is one of the greater fourth line centers in league history. I understand why people are doing it, we probably wouldn't show up with him in a greatest franchise type tournament. But he isn't nearly as out of place as Probert is for instance. Love Probie, but what team which depending on if you put Chelios on the team might have Chelios, Howe, Shanahan and Lindsay needs that guy? I mean seriously...

You might bring him in the same idea of why he played for Team Canada rightfully for a good turn. People like to blame 2006 on Draper and some of the other guys but it is wrong, he was awesome in that role in their previous tournaments and was not at fault for their failure. That is how good he was, he was not out of place playing on Olympic super teams, World Championships and World Cups.

Which is to say the argument exists, I guess the Probert argument is to bring the greatest enforcer in league history. I don't know, but Draper would play 1st unit PK and be huge on draws and provide energy in whatever minutes given. He was a fairly remarkable player and in my opinion the best at what was specifically tasked of him and his role in the NHL for maybe a decade. He was certainly front and center in the best bottom six player debate for most of his career.

I bet every Habs list will have Guy Carbonneau when others could be argued over him.
 

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
11,301
1,178
Yet a fair number of people put up the draper line ??? Granted everyone has there own opinion and Detroit is one of the few teams that could make more than one team. It just seems shocking to me that most lists are very 90's and 00's centric.

Shouldn't be that shocking considering:

1) 90s and 00s are recent and most of us actually experienced them (whereas most of us never seen Detroit's previously successful eras)

2) the 90s and 00s were highly successful both with 2 Cups and 3 Finals appearances
 

Cyborg Yzerberg

Registered User
Nov 8, 2007
11,150
2,369
Philadelphia
Why so very little consideration for Lindsay or Aurie? Is it just because so few people saw them and such?

Lindsay HAS to be on any list. Little Dempsey was good and all, but he was overshadowed by Syd Howe and there's been a lot better forwards in our franchise history than Aurie. There's a reason I had guys like Quackenbush and Stewart in my lineup, and of course Goodfellow should be mentioned. Aurie probably doesn't fit on the best 12 forwards list.
 

14ari13

Registered User
Oct 19, 2006
14,035
1,167
Norway
I think it is a lot og apples to oranges comparisions here.

But very exciting topic.
 
Last edited:

Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
6,135
1,563
Not knocking drapper in any way here, huge fan. To me there are just better options than Drapper. Fedorov and Daytsuk for example bring Selke defense, but they also have outstanding offense. So they get the nod for a defense role while also being a threat to score.

Same arguement for me on Probert. I think to many people get caught up on Probert being an enforcer specialist and forget that he has some pretty notable offense when he was put in a top 6 role.

When you can build a team of players that can fill specialist roles while also putting up major offense I think Draper falls off the list.

I'm just trying to imagine teams playing this lineup where one of Howe, Shanahan, Probert, Chelios, or Konstantinov are always on the ice for grit, while at the same time one of Daytsuk, Fedorov, Lidstrom are also likely to be there for non-gritty yet elite shutdown D but transition to elite offense as well.

To me Drapper is top on defense but I wouldn't want a line where the offense stops when its not necessary due to the depth wings have on players who provide 2-way.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->