Detroit is the worst team 3 on 3 in the last 2 years

Steve Yzerlland

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My argument is that Chicago is going to be stuck in mediocrity for years due to their GM doing the same things KH was doing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, thus making us in better shape than them going forward.

You've been arguing who the better team is for some reason.
No my argument is despite “ doing what KH was doing with 13 and 40” Chicago is still in a better position going forward. They have more talent. And they are younger the wings RIGHT NOW.They have generational talent STILL in their prime and better young players already producing.
 
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Ezekial

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No my argument is despite “ doing what KH was doing with 13 and 40” Chicago is still in a better position going forward. They have more talent. And they are younger the wings RIGHT NOW.They have generational talent STILL in their prime and better young players already producing.
Buddy, our opening night roster without Hank/Franzen and with Hronek/Rasmussen/Zadina/Frk making the team and Witter sent down our average age is less than 27 years old. In 2 years we'll have 2 over 35 contracts without Howie re-signing - Hank and Nielsen - Big E, Daley, Kronner, (and Franzen off the books) should all be gone for sure.

The average age thing you love to hate is nothing more than a meaningless talking point for this rebuilding team.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Buddy, our opening night roster without Hank/Franzen and with Hronek/Rasmussen/Zadina/Frk making the team and Witter sent down our average age is less than 27 years old. In 2 years we'll have 2 over 35 contracts without Howie re-signing - Hank and Nielsen - Big E, Daley, Kronner, (and Franzen off the books) should all be gone for sure.

The average age thing you love to hate is nothing more than a meaningless talking point for this rebuilding team.

There are quite a few meaningless hills that people want to die on (Highest Average age, highest cap hit, etc.) that are completely irrelevant to anything about the actual state of the team. When we dealt Tatar, we weren't the most expensive roster in hockey. Had we moved Green too, we probably would have dove near the bottom. Any TDL trades we made (having signed guys like Vanek, Green this time, Ott, etc. for the expressed purpose of maybe having a TDL asset in addition to a legit NHL player to play with our young guys till then.), automatically invalidate both those things you want to complain about.

How is Chicago like the redwings in 2014? Kane is still on their roster under 30 and a league MVP along with a host of other young players. They had one down year.All we have is HOPE about our prospects.

The Wings had a league MVP level player in Datsyuk, a bona-fide hockey IQ two-way stud 2C in Zetterberg, they had Mantha and Larkin coming in, Tatar and Nyquist hadn't shown themselves to 100% be passengers yet. 2014 Nyquist was still "NYQUIST EXPLOSION" era where he was the best goal scoring wing in hockey for about a 60 game period.

The Wings in 2014 are one HELL of a lot more like the Blackhawks are now than you want to give them credit for. They are severely limited from big time additions that they'd need to actually compete. Toews isn't a 70p C anymore and is more likely to get worse than he is to get better. Scoring almost 30 once is not a guarantee that you'll go on to keep doing it (see Nyquist + Tatar), so you can't just assume Debrincat will continue to be that player.

Also... the Wings had 102 points in 11-12, ~96 equivalent points in the lockout year, 93, 100 in 12, 13, 14. If you pay attention at all, this is not one down year for Chicago. It's them running headlong into a wall. Unless they can move significant money (like Seabrook to Florida), they aren't in a position to materially add to their team outside of getting lucky in the draft and they're not the new hotness anymore like they were in the early 2010s, when they landed a top 10 LW in Panarin because he thought Patrick Kane was sick and the team was loaded. That type of guy is going to Washington, Tampa, Vegas, or Toronto now.
 

kliq

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How is Chicago like the redwings in 2014? Kane is still on their roster under 30 and a league MVP along with a host of other young players. They had one down year.All we have is HOPE about our prospects.

Chicago is a team that has a core all past their primes (maybe with the exception of Kane) and are on the decline. With the massive contracts that their core have (ie. Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford are around 40mil combined), it will be nearly impossible for them to become contenders again without hitting the jock-pot with their younger talent. Sure they are better then us right now, I dont think anyone is disputing this, but they are just starting their decline and will likely have to wait a long time before they are contenders again. This is why they remind me of us in 2014, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Franzen, and Zetterberg were all beginning to decline around that time.

I have a close friend who is a Blackhawks fan, last summer he told me they wouldn't be making the playoffs after that awful Saad trade, and that they were beginning their decline. I though he was crazy, I was wrong.
 

kliq

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Chicago has 3 of the greatest players in NHL history still on their roster... Kane isn’t even 30. Toews is 30. They had 100+ points two years ago. Die on a different hill man. Go look at the odds to win the cup and wins/losses projections Chi is better than the Wings going forward. All we have is hope these kids are any good. I’m speaking all facts yours are solely wishes and “projections”. I want the Wings to win the cup every year but we have to keep it real they aren’t good at all and our future is resting on 18 year olds that haven’t played an NHL game, Chicago has current STARS and great young talent ALREADY producing at the NHL level.

Kane is an offensive dynamo, Ill give you that, but over the last 3 years he has gone from 106 points to 89 points to 76 points. He's declining.
Towes is probably the most overrated player in NHL history, sure he's a good player, but one of the greatest players ever? Not even close. Like Kane, he's also in decline.
Keith was a great player, but he's now 35 with 5 years left under contract. Like the two above, also on the decline.

What I don't understand, is why are you arguing that Chicago is better then Detroit right now? I have not seen anyone make an argument to the contrary.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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Kane is an offensive dynamo, Ill give you that, but over the last 3 years he has gone from 106 points to 89 points to 76 points. He's declining.
Towes is probably the most overrated player in NHL history, sure he's a good player, but one of the greatest players ever? Not even close. Like Kane, he's also in decline.
Keith was a great player, but he's now 35 with 5 years left under contract. Like the two above, also on the decline.

What I don't understand, is why are you arguing that Chicago is better then Detroit right now? I have not seen anyone make an argument to the contrary.
100 Greatest NHL Players
Didn’t make up this list.... They made the playoffs 2 years ago won the cup 4 years ago and finished higher than us in the standings last year that’s why...
 

kliq

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100 Greatest NHL Players
Didn’t make up this list.... They made the playoffs 2 years ago won the cup 4 years ago and finished higher than us in the standings last year that’s why...

List is BS, no way Toews is a better player then Malkin. I remember when it came out, Toews being ranked where he was, completely discredited the list. Put him on any other team in the NHL this past decade, and he doesn't even come close to making that list.

As for the bold, let me be clear, I AM NOT arguing that Detroit is better then Chicago right now. Keep listing Chicago's achievements, NOBODY is disagreeing with that that point. The only point being made is that Chicago is at the very beginning of a decline, that is why I compared them to us in 2014. I think Chicago has a long road ahead.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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List is BS, no way Toews is a better player then Malkin. I remember when it came out, Toews being ranked where he was, completely discredited the list. Put him on any other team in the NHL this past decade, and he doesn't even come close to making that list.

As for the bold, let me be clear, I AM NOT arguing that Detroit is better then Chicago right now. Keep listing Chicago's achievements, NOBODY is disagreeing with that that point. The only point being made is that Chicago is at the very beginning of a decline, that is why I compared them to us in 2014. I think Chicago has a long road ahead.
And so do we. I think longer.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Didn’t make up this list.... They made the playoffs 2 years ago won the cup 4 years ago and finished higher than us in the standings last year that’s why...

In 2014... the Wings had won the Cup 6 years previously and never finished below 93 points in that time (the lockout season adjusted is around 96 points).

And are you kidding me? With FAR superior talent to ours, they finished with 76 points. We had 73 with a team that is apparently full of garbage that should kill themselves. Chicago is at the beginning of their decline because they have no cap flexibility going forward, their superstars are past the apex of their primes (Kane is still fabulous and Toews is still good too), and the top end of their D core is old, expensive as hell, and locked in for half a decade. Keith is heading for a cliff. He's a great D man, but he's not Lidstrom. He's not going to stay a bona-fide #1 through 40. Keith is gonna run headlong into a wall and soon. Seabrook already has. If it was obvious that Detroit should have blown it up in 2012-2015 like people want to paint it... it should be starting to become pretty darn evident that Chicago is going to have to. Their current core (as shown by three consecutive years of losing in the first round or not making the playoffs at all) can't get it done anymore. They could breathe a bunch more life into it if they could find a way to jettison Seabrook for anything without giving up a 1st or something equally valuable or luck into a superstud via the draft/Debrincat and Schmaltz take the step from good young prospects to bona-fide superstars... But just like Detroit in 2014, barring some material event like that happening, they're gonna slowly drift down and down.
 
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Steve Yzerlland

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In 2014... the Wings had won the Cup 6 years previously and never finished below 93 points in that time (the lockout season adjusted is around 96 points).

And are you kidding me? With FAR superior talent to ours, they finished with 76 points. We had 73 with a team that is apparently full of garbage that should kill themselves. Chicago is at the beginning of their decline because they have no cap flexibility going forward, their superstars are past the apex of their primes (Kane is still fabulous and Toews is still good too), and the top end of their D core is old, expensive as hell, and locked in for half a decade. Keith is heading for a cliff. He's a great D man, but he's not Lidstrom. He's not going to stay a bona-fide #1 through 40. Keith is gonna run headlong into a wall and soon. Seabrook already has. If it was obvious that Detroit should have blown it up in 2012-2015 like people want to paint it... it should be starting to become pretty darn evident that Chicago is going to have to. Their current core (as shown by three consecutive years of losing in the first round or not making the playoffs at all) can't get it done anymore. They could breathe a bunch more life into it if they could find a way to jettison Seabrook for anything without giving up a 1st or something equally valuable or luck into a superstud via the draft/Debrincat and Schmaltz take the step from good young prospects to bona-fide superstars... But just like Detroit in 2014, barring some material event like that happening, they're gonna slowly drift down and down.
So you have inside information that Kane and Toews are leaving Chicago? Don’t see how they are going to drift down when those guys aren’t even old at all! Schmaltz and DeBrincat look like future stars, don’t agree with you guys whatsoever, sorry bros lol.
 

kliq

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So you have inside information that Kane and Toews are leaving Chicago? Don’t see how they are going to drift down when those guys aren’t even old at all! Schmaltz and DeBrincat look like future stars, don’t agree with you guys whatsoever, sorry bros lol.

It has nothing to do with age, its about the trajectory of production from the player. If Towes and Kane were still producing like they did in their primes that would be one thing, but both are statistically beginning to decline without a specific reason to justify it (ie. an injury, new coach, etc.)

Schmaltz and DeBrincat being the saviors? Isn't this exactly what people hoped Nyquist and Tatar would be in 2014? How did that workout for us? Do you remember Nyquist's 2014 season where he played like a Hart contender for the second half of the season? I admit you never know, but for Chicago to become contenders again, they need players like that to become elite, and its just not likely.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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It has nothing to do with age, its about the trajectory of production from the player. If Towes and Kane were still producing like they did in their primes that would be one thing, but both are statistically beginning to decline without a specific reason to justify it (ie. an injury, new coach, etc.)

Schmaltz and DeBrincat being the saviors? Isn't this exactly what people hoped Nyquist and Tatar would be in 2014? How did that workout for us? Do you remember Nyquist's 2014 season where he played like a Hart contender for the second half of the season? I admit you never know, but for Chicago to become contenders again, they need players like that to become elite, and its just not likely.
Kane in a “down year” still averaged nearly a PPG. He would clearly be our best player going forward and it isn’t even close... Schmaltz and DeBrincat did more in the NHL as rookies combined than Tatar and Nyquist did
 

Ezekial

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Pat Kane would certainly be our best player right now.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were both over a ppg in 12/13. How are you not getting the comparison?
 

Ezekial

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Read this. Actually strengthens my point. Forgot about Saad another career 30 goal scorer in a season on the Hawks that is 25 and under. How many of those do we have again?
No it doesn't, the article clearly states they're following the same trajectory


Blackhawks fans are praying they can get the 3 or WC seed in the central right now. They know where their team is.

The saad move was a gd negative move for their team from the cup run. The cup run they had Panarin.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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No it doesn't, the article clearly states they're following the same trajectory


Blackhawks fans are praying they can get the 3 or WC seed in the central right now. They know where their team is.

The saad move was a gd negative move for their team from the cup run. The cup run they had Panarin.
Kane
Toews
Schmaltz
Saad
DeBrincat
Of those top 5 forwards how many can you say we have better on the wings?
Larkin
Mantha
Nyquist
Nielsen
AA?
I know which core i’d rather have! And don’t throw in names like Rasmussen, Zadina etc prospects who have never played a game in the NHL...
 

Ezekial

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Larkin had a better season than everyone not named Kane. Enough said.

Pimpin Schmaltz as Larkin is so f***ing funny.
 

Ezekial

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Like you aren't even trying to follow what I'm saying.

I'm comparing the aging core of a cup winning team to the aging core of a cup winning team. I'm not talking about how good they would be on our shitty team now. They haven't bottomed out, their GM will try to right the ship for a couple years then they will be exactly where we are.

You want to talk about average age but Keith, Seabrook, etc. contracts don't matter to you. I brought that up because in 4 years when those players are on their roster still (like Franzen and Hank are now) is going to drive their average age up. Seabrook was pathetic on the ice last year. The swing between Franzen/Hank and Zadina/Rasmussen is 39 years.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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Larkin had a better season than everyone not named Kane. Enough said.

Pimpin Schmaltz as Larkin is so ****ing funny.
Schmaltz is the same caliber as Larkin. He scored 63 damn points and we were 5th worst in the league. What a world beater lol. It’s funny how you guys have your prospects goggles on right now in regards to our future when all the young talent im talking about on Chicago is already producing in the NHL... like I said go look at a thread from 2014 and every on the board thought a lot of career AHLers like Pulks, Sproul, Jurco were untouchable and Jarnkrok was a No.1 C and Zetterberg’s replacement. How’d that turn out?
 

Ezekial

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Schmaltz is the same caliber as Larkin. He scored 63 damn points and we were 5th worst in the league. What a world beater lol. It’s funny how you guys have your prospects goggles on right now in regards to our future when all the young talent im talking about on Chicago is already producing in the NHL... like I said go look at a thread from 2014 and every on the board thought a lot of career AHLers like Pulks, Sproul, Jurco we’re untouchable and Jarnkrok was a No.1 C and Zetterberg’s replacement. How’d that turn out?
In what world is a player driving his teams first line putting up 63 points, 55 ES/SH, the same as a guy glued to PATRICK KANE (who you've been saying all this great stuff about) putting up 52 points, 39 ES/SH.

How are these players the same caliber?
After talking about how great Pat Kane is and how shit Dylan's supporting cast is.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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In what world is a player driving his teams first line putting up 63 points, 55 ES/SH, the same as a guy glued to PATRICK KANE (who you've been saying all this great stuff about) putting up 52 points, 39 ES/SH.

How are these players the same caliber?
After talking about how great Pat Kane is and how **** Dylan's supporting cast is.
You can’t have it both ways man lol. “Kane is trending downwards Chicago has a long road ahead”then in the same breathe only reason “Schmaltz is putting up points is because he is glued with Kane”. Lol?
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Kane
Toews
Schmaltz
Saad
DeBrincat
Of those top 5 forwards how many can you say we have better on the wings?
Larkin
Mantha
Nyquist
Nielsen
AA?
I know which core i’d rather have! And don’t throw in names like Rasmussen, Zadina etc prospects who have never played a game in the NHL...

I'd rather have Chicago's core too if we are talking talent. But with taking Chicago's core, you're also taking the fact that they're not in that much better a cap situation than Detroit has been in the last few years and they've still got 5 years to go on pretty much all the deals they've got. They're locked into this team for five years without the ability to make moves that materially change the team without taking it in the can on value because teams know the score. The only pieces Chicago could realistically move would be Schmaltz, DeBrincat, and other prospects. You wouldn't deal Kane for anything... you can't trade Toews at 10.5M because nobody would give you close to his value cause that contract is gonna look real bad. Keith with 5 years left at 35 will scare away potential suitors and Seabrook might just have the worst contract in hockey.

If you look at it as a bell curve, Chicago is just a little past the peak and has nothing but down in front of them. If DeBrincat and Schmaltz don't continue to develop into Toews and Kane 2.0 or they don't manage to add another young piece that does... Chicago's sunk and it'll be a long, grueling road. It'll be just like Detroit in the last five years.

Also, that being said... when comparing those two "cores", I'd say that Kane is better than everyone. Toews = Larkin. Mantha = Saad. AA could certainly be on the level of a DeBrincat or Schmaltz if he ever sorted out his effort issues. And by willfully ignoring a top 3 pick in Zadina and a top 10 pick in Rasmussen, you're showing your bias. Zadina is just about the surest thing, talent-wise and pedigree-wise, coming out of the draft that Detroit has had since 1989. And I'm sure if Chicago had tripped into him instead of Detroit, you'd be using him as a "oh, man Chicago's got a 40 goal scorer comin and Detroit's drafted an undersized D who can't play defense and won't be here for four years (if they took Boqvist or Hughes)"
 

Ezekial

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You can’t have it both ways man lol. “Kane is trending downwards Chicago has a long road ahead”then in the same breathe only reason “Schmaltz is putting up points is because he is glued with Kane”. Lol?
Don't take other people's arguments and use them against me. I never said anything about Patrick Kane's production. I love Pat Kane.

Declining doesn't mean they suck. He was near ppg still, and maybe his "decline" had more to do with, sub-par line mates, than before.


Way to skuuurt the argument you know you can't win. More ES point than Schmaltz's total points - you had to figure something else you didn't like about the post. Good one.
 

Steve Yzerlland

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I'd rather have Chicago's core too if we are talking talent. But with taking Chicago's core, you're also taking the fact that they're not in that much better a cap situation than Detroit has been in the last few years and they've still got 5 years to go on pretty much all the deals they've got. They're locked into this team for five years without the ability to make moves that materially change the team without taking it in the can on value because teams know the score. The only pieces Chicago could realistically move would be Schmaltz, DeBrincat, and other prospects. You wouldn't deal Kane for anything... you can't trade Toews at 10.5M because nobody would give you close to his value cause that contract is gonna look real bad. Keith with 5 years left at 35 will scare away potential suitors and Seabrook might just have the worst contract in hockey.

If you look at it as a bell curve, Chicago is just a little past the peak and has nothing but down in front of them. If DeBrincat and Schmaltz don't continue to develop into Toews and Kane 2.0 or they don't manage to add another young piece that does... Chicago's sunk and it'll be a long, grueling road. It'll be just like Detroit in the last five years.

Also, that being said... when comparing those two "cores", I'd say that Kane is better than everyone. Toews = Larkin. Mantha = Saad. AA could certainly be on the level of a DeBrincat or Schmaltz if he ever sorted out his effort issues. And by willfully ignoring a top 3 pick in Zadina and a top 10 pick in Rasmussen, you're showing your bias. Zadina is just about the surest thing, talent-wise and pedigree-wise, coming out of the draft that Detroit has had since 1989. And I'm sure if Chicago had tripped into him instead of Detroit, you'd be using him as a "oh, man Chicago's got a 40 goal scorer comin and Detroit's drafted an undersized D who can't play defense and won't be here for four years (if they took Boqvist or Hughes)"
Im only ignoring Rasmussen and Zadina because they aren’t NHL players yet. A year from now I might change my stance. As of today I can’t see how someone can legitimately without bias say Detroit’s future looks better than Chicago. If you’ve noticed I haven’t mentioned any of Chicago’s many prospects as well. And I also want to state that I hate the Blackhawks with a passion but I’m not going to just lie because the Red wings are my favourite team.
 

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