Post-Game Talk: Detroit 5, Toronto 2. EVERYONE CALM THE **** DOWN!

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Ari91

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Nov 24, 2010
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No. Gardiner is extremely overrated. I don't understand why people are questioning a cup winning coach on this. He has a system and Gardiner makes terrible decisions way more often then he'd like.

Gardiners play without the puck in the PO is something we can't always expect.

It's not that he's overrated. People praise him for his skating and offensive ability with the puck...that's praise well deserved. It's more fitting to point out that some people don't take well to hearing criticism against Gardiner.

Ok.. flame away at me for this..

But from whatever amount I saw tonight, I'd blame Gardiner for the 1st DRW goal. Him being soft on his man, and floating once he lost his man, was a direct cause of that one.

I haven't watched other part of the game; but I agree with Carlyle that Gardiner right now is not the one we saw in playoffs. Creativity is fine, but as a defenseman, defense is the first priority, and opposition gets more breakaways than I like when Gardiner is on ice.

Whether they score on breakaways is a different story, but a defenseman needs to avoid those breakaways, not make them happen.

"High risk, high reward" shouldn't be applied to Gardiner, or any other defenseman; especially when the coach is trying to enforce a defensive system. Leave the extra creativity part to our forwards.

It's a fine line on these boards. Fans get attached to certain players and when they do well, they bust out the trumpets and when they struggle the reaction is 'how can you criticize him like that?'. For all of the good things that Gardiner brings to his game, he needs to be more consistent in playing stronger defense in his own zone. It's not that people don't acknowledge that he could work on that area of the game, it's that people choose to ignore that and think that others should as well. It's not the coaches job to ignore those kind of things and people may not like the coach calling out Gardiner but let's not pretend that Gardiner is some sacrificial lamb. Carlyle has called out JVR for needing to be more willing to play in front of the net. He started listening and he began to be rewarded for it. Carlyle has called out Franson for his skating ability and has said that it's an area of his game that holds him back from possibly being elite. Carlyle sees the potential in his players and we don't really need to over analyze every time he critiques their game.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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I question the wording a little bit myself, but compared to the playoff Gardiner he isn't the same. Once again it's the pre season, so i hardly put any stock into it. But when I see JVR this pre season, I see a much improved player. I don't think the same of Gardiner.

It's not the best system in the league, I meant you can't question its success. He brought a team to the playoffs with a team of mostly outcast players. His system gave us one of the best PKs, and a successful PK for the first time in years.
Sure you can. PK is one aspect of a system. The Leafs lost in round 1 after having a team on the ropes. Carlyle himself admitted he mishandled the final few minutes of Game 7.

As for the preseason/Gardiner/JVR stuff. If it's just preseason, which I agree with, how can you support the claim? Nobody is in playoff form, not even JVR. Nobody is playing with that intensity or drive, most are warming up for the season. JVR looks good, but he looked good in the post-season as well, so I don't buy that he's looked much improved.
 

Pi

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Nov 16, 2010
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Why did Reimer look just as good in his sophomore season in Wilsons system?

Concussion?

So far...Reimer's only average season has been the one where he got concussed! That's not a groin injury where there is a set timetable.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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Very bad example.

Dubynk -----> Lead Oilers to 7th overall pick.
Reimer -----> Lead Leafs to 5th in East + playoffs.

Yeah, I'm sure Reimer would flourish under that WONDERFUL defence of oilers.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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Concussion?

So far...Reimer's only average season has been the one where he got concussed! That's not a groin injury where there is a set timetable.

He was out for like a three weeks not half a season...
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
14,014
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Sure you can. PK is one aspect of a system. The Leafs lost in round 1 after having a team on the ropes. Carlyle himself admitted he mishandled the final few minutes of Game 7.

As for the preseason/Gardiner/JVR stuff. If it's just preseason, which I agree with, how can you support the claim? Nobody is in playoff form, not even JVR. Nobody is playing with that intensity or drive, most are warming up for the season. JVR looks good, but he looked good in the post-season as well, so I don't buy that he's looked much improved.

So you're going to question the whole system based off of what game? Why not over a larger sample size?

The claim I'm making is JVR looks like he did in the post season, Gardiner doesn't.
 

Crispy Crust

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Jul 6, 2007
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True. The Leafs weren't bad as the shot clock indicated but they weren't as good as people think under "Carlyle's system," we were an average team with an above average goalie.
We better pray that our goalies are good enough or this team starts playing smarter.

It's only preseason but I just hope Carlyle doesn't make any dumb decisions this year. Let's hope there isn't a Kostka or Holzer type mistake this season..you expect that from rookie coaches, not veteran Cup winning coaches.

Precisely. Luckily for us, there doesn't seem to be any reason why Reimer can't match or better his performance from last season. Durability might be an issue, but having a dependable backup like Bernier will obviously help.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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Sure you can. PK is one aspect of a system. The Leafs lost in round 1 after having a team on the ropes. Carlyle himself admitted he mishandled the final few minutes of Game 7.

As for the preseason/Gardiner/JVR stuff. If it's just preseason, which I agree with, how can you support the claim? Nobody is in playoff form, not even JVR. Nobody is playing with that intensity or drive, most are warming up for the season. JVR looks good, but he looked good in the post-season as well, so I don't buy that he's looked much improved.

I don't know, he's looked like the best leafs in camp (according to Bowen) and his skating to me looks much improved. Plus, if we get JVR to play in the regular season like he does in post-season, then that would be very good.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
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So you're going to question the whole system based off of what game? Why not over a larger sample size?

The claim I'm making is JVR looks like he did in the post season, Gardiner doesn't.
It's an example of how his system isn't perfect. You seem to think he can't be questioned, when he clearly can be. That's obvious.

As for the comment, nobody looks as good as they did in playoffs, so why mention Gardiner then throw in the last comment which you agree is odd. If it's to motivate him, I have no issues. If it's a legitimate threat that he'll sit, I question Carlyle's decision. Just like I questioned him using Holzer and Kostka so much last year and starting the playoffs with the roster he did.
 

Crispy Crust

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I don't think you know the meaning of carrying a team. There's Lundquist/quick (playoff mode) carrying team style and then there's Reimer/Dubnyk. I give credited to Reimer last year, but he didn't carry the team as much as Lundquist did or Quick (in the playoffs)

No Reimer carried the Leafs to the playoffs. Getting heavily outshot on a consistent basis is not a recipe for success. Having a great goaltender like Reimer who bailed us out on numerous occasions, allowed the Leafs to qualify for the playoffs. The guy was left out to dry many times last season and he still was up to the challenge. Reimer is a monster.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
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I don't know, he's looked like the best leafs in camp (according to Bowen) and his skating to me looks much improved. Plus, if we get JVR to play in the regular season like he does in post-season, then that would be very good.
He's looked great this preseason, he looked great in the post-season. He was a PPG player against the Bruins, if we get that type of impact from him in the regular season we'll all be very happy.
 

BayStreetBullies*

Guest
Gardiner is easy to pick on right now. ELC player. You think if Dion had a garbage game..he would call him out? No :laugh:

Don't worry, the so called experts on here call him out enough times. Even when it's not warranted.
 

TheLeastOfTheBunch

Franchise Centre
Jun 28, 2007
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Mark Masters ‏@markhmasters 12m
Carlyle on if Gardiner is back to where he was in playoffs: 'No, no he's not'

Carlyle on if Gardiner needs to evolve: 'Well, we haven't go too many more days (left in camp)'

Mark Masters ‏@markhmasters 18m
Gardiner: 'Feeling pretty good. I think I've been limiting my turnovers & still try & play offensive & join the play as much as I can.'
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
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It's an example of how his system isn't perfect. You seem to think he can't be questioned, when he clearly can be. That's obvious.

As for the comment, nobody looks as good as they did in playoffs, so why mention Gardiner then throw in the last comment which you agree is odd. If it's to motivate him, I have no issues. If it's a legitimate threat that he'll sit, I question Carlyle's decision. Just like I questioned him using Holzer and Kostka so much last year and starting the playoffs with the roster he did.

I know he isn't perfect. But Carlyle has a winning system, which you can't question.

You're question if his system is perfect. I'm saying he has a winnign system. Don't misconstrue my words.

Because people keep ridiculously hyping Gardiner. Gardiner has never shown a high level of consistency at any point in his carrer, he's shown flashes of good performances. Carlyle want's Gardiner to show some consistency.
 

Penalty Kill Icing*

Guest
Ok, this thread is getting out of hands.

Reimer has had a huge role in last year's Leafs making the playoffs. With him in net, Leafs are at a ****ing 100 point pace. 100 point pace (includes the concussion affected sophomore season). And his career has spanned under Wilson and Carlyle.

His first and third season are very similar, while playing under different coaches and different systems. Not to forget, last season, Scrivens had a 7-9 losing record.

So, if you were to ask me why we made playoffs: I would definitely put Reimer ahead of Carlyle (and I am a Carlyle proponent).
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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True. The Leafs weren't bad as the shot clock indicated but they weren't as good as people think under "Carlyle's system," we were an average team with an above average goalie.

We better pray that our goalies are good enough or this team starts playing smarter.

It's only preseason but I just hope Carlyle doesn't make any dumb decisions this year. Let's hope there isn't a Kostka or Holzer type mistake this season..you expect that from rookie coaches, not veteran Cup winning coaches.

This is such as B.S comment. You do know that we were top 10 in defenseman scoring as a team, top 6 in GA and top 2 in P.K. Don't act like the team as whole didn't contribute at all and Reimer basically carried this team. We had so many improvents from players such as Kadri, Kessel, JVR, Franson and Phaneuf. So what if we were a bad possession team. That didn't stop us from making the playoffs. Fenwick stats can go **** themselves.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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You're question if his system is perfect. I'm saying he has a winnign system. Don't misconstrue my words.

Because people keep ridiculously hyping Gardiner. Gardiner has never shown a high level of consistency at any point in his carrer, he's shown flashes of good performances. Carlyle want's Gardiner to show some consistency.
Your words were that we shouldn't question Carlyle because he won a cup. You also said "But Carlyle has a winning system, which you can't question." It's right there in your quote.

There are times when he should be questioned. He questions his own decisions, so why shouldn't we?

If Carlyle says he wants more consistency with Gardiner I wouldn't have an issue, it's the comment about "running out of time." If it's to get back to playoff form, then basically everyone on the roster is running out of time to get there, since very few (if any) are at that level, so why mention it? If it's to make the team, then god help us.

Could also be a questionable quote from Mirtle meant to stir the pot.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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No Reimer carried the Leafs to the playoffs. Getting heavily outshot on a consistent basis is not a recipe for success. Having a great goaltender like Reimer who bailed us out on numerous occasions, allowed the Leafs to qualify for the playoffs. The guy was left out to dry many times last season and he still was up to the challenge. Reimer is a monster.

Again, like I said before, Reimer did not carry the team. We had a top 2 P.K, we were top ten in defenseman scoring,top 6 in GF and your're saying Reimer carried the team? Ridiculous...
 

Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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Well seems like the original quote was rather misleading, it's more a matter of not much time left for fine tuning before the season start. That should hopefully calm all this down.

Either way, I very much doubt that Carlyle mentions Gardiner specifically because he dislikes him. It's much more likely other reasons behind it. There might be something in Gardiners approach to the game that tells Carlyle he might need a bit of a callout, while something similar with someone like Phaneuf would create even more drama but would not be as necessary for one reason or the other.
 

happyaccident

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May 14, 2013
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You're question if his system is perfect. I'm saying he has a winnign system. Don't misconstrue my words.

Because people keep ridiculously hyping Gardiner. Gardiner has never shown a high level of consistency at any point in his carrer, he's shown flashes of good performances. Carlyle want's Gardiner to show some consistency.

Carlyle's winning system was "get me one of the best rosters in the history of the League and one of the greatest defense pairings ever" and I'll get you a Cup.
I agree there was a lot of structure to our game which wasn't there before, he's an Xs and Os guy for sure. He'd make a great assistant coach, where we wouldn't have to endure his bonehead personnel decisions.
 

Crispy Crust

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Jul 6, 2007
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Toronto
Again, like I said before, Reimer did not carry the team. We had a top 2 P.K, we were top ten in defenseman scoring,top 6 in GF and your're saying Reimer carried the team?

Leafs were a poor possession team (Yes possession matters!) last season. You can't keep winning like that, it's just not sustainable. Sorry, but Reimer was easily the biggest reason this team snapped it's 9 year playoff drought. At least acknowledge that without James Reimer's performance last season, there is no way this team qualifies for the playoffs.
 
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