Post-Game Talk: Detroit 5, Toronto 2. EVERYONE CALM THE **** DOWN!

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Crispy Crust

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Jul 6, 2007
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The guy who took a lottery bound team to the playoffs isn't a good coach. Leafs nation has the same problem as Carlyle does, a hard on for average players. If he can win without Gardiner, why does he need him?



Beautiful counter argument.

James Reimer not Carlyle.
 

Ari91

Registered User
Nov 24, 2010
9,900
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Toronto
forget that, some teams do it during the POST season.
(see, Penguins vs. Bruins, 2013).

re: Jake - i'm not sweating it.

Hey, let's not forget the entire Flyers vs Pens playoff series a couple of seasons ago. Still baffles my mind how people considered that great playoff hockey :laugh:

Absolute worst case, he starts the season in the presser. Still find that somewhat unlikely, but he'll probably sit tomorrow night in favor of Reilly.

If Carlyle is seeing issue in Gardiner's game, I don't know what sense it would make if he ended up keeping Rielly past the 9 games. Gardiner needs to experience the ups and downs of playing in the NHL to get better. There's nothing for him to learn in the AHL or in the pressbox. But maybe Carlyle will be using Rielly to send a message to Gardiner. If Rielly is going to get some more looks by Carlyle, it will likely be Gardiner's place that he takes because they're similar kind of players (as you pointed out). Not to mention, the other guys sitting in the pressbox is Liles and he'll probably get some games in when Carlyle wants to send a message to Gardiner. I'm all for players having to earn their ice time, I just hope that Carlyle understand the personalities of each of his players and sends 'messages' in a manner that will most likely motivate them. If sitting in a pressbox motivates Gardiner, then by all means but I just hope it's the right move. In fairness, it seemed to work last year when Gardiner was released from the pressbox and went beast in the playoffs.

True. But quite frankly I still see the same mental mistakes. Progression implies correction.
If there are new mistakes fine, but same mistakes that is stupidity.

Example:

Dion Phaneuf - on PP has the puck but doesn't move his feet, clock ticks by the time he moves he either takes a bad shot or hurries up the pass.

Bozak experiment on the no. 1 PP, enough!

If we have to lose, then why not make new mistakes may be they will turn out to be something that benefits team and not really mistakes. Carlyle is trying the same thing over and over again.

Btw, a reply suggesting that it worked last time as we made playoffs. We made playoffs because of the following 3:

Kessel beasting
Kadri Beasting

Reimer SUPER beasting

If these three didn't play the way they did we would not have made the playoffs last season.

Did you notice that our PP was missing it's most lethal weapon? And by the way, your logic is stupid and I'm not sure I want to spend a whole essay worth of space giving you examples of how. If the team keeps making mistakes in one area of their game, they can find ways to manipulate and adjust in order to limit those mistakes (which may be due to personnel and not system). If a team learns from one mistake at the cost of making other 'new' mistakes then you have a team that'll never get anywhere because being perfect isn't an option and you can't keep changing your system to adjust for every new set of mistakes the team starts to make.

Beasting would suggest that these players were playing well above their abilities. Have these players played enough to suggest that they aren't capable of sustaining that kind of play? Get out of here with that fortune telling BS.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
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Who cares if he won a cup with a stacked roster 6 ****ing years ago. The guy has made questionable coaching decisions since he was hired in March of last year. It's about time people start realizing that Randy Carlyle isn't that great of a coach. For **** sakes, he has a fetish for awful/mediocre players but guys who are actually good at the game of hockey don't "fit" his style of play.

Who the **** cares. We made it to the playoffs and almost beat Boston in 7. That's good enough for me.
 

Pi

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
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Is he playing as well as he was in the playoffs though? It's the pre season, why are people putting stock into this? All off season I heard that Gardiner was "going to take the next step forward" based off his playoff play. He looks exactly like the same Gardiner of 2 years ago. Sure he's good with the puck on his stick with room, but he still blows coverages way too often, makes poor reads, throws the puck away under pressure, and holds onto the puck in the offensive zone for two long.

I know he isn't perfect. But Carlyle has a winning system, which you can't question. He clearly see's Gardiner play sticking out and not working for his system. After a year and a bit, you'd think Gardiner would have adapted a more simply game at times. I still see Gardiner carry the puck into high traffic zones and turn the puck over.

Yes, Lupul is a good example. But there was a difference. One, Lupul was often injured and took the game, as well as fitness much less seriously back then. It's fairly obvious he wasn't the same player he was there that he is here, and while Carlyle never gave him the chance for top line minutes, it wasn't like he was playing phenomenally.

What is a winning system exactly?

I don't want a system that wins us 3 playoff games. I want 16 playoff games.

If there is anyone to blame...it's Carlyle for his bonehead decisions. Carlyle says Gardiner played well in the playoffs.

Guess what? If not for Kostka breaking his hand...Gardiner wouldn't have played a single game.

Why can't these reporters ask hard questions? All they ever do is write about corsi and fenwick. Real easy job.

How about asking the coach: "Why does Bozak play on the first PP?"
"Why was Kostka playing 25 minutes?"
"Why was Holzer playing 22 minutes?"
"Why was Liles benched for Holzer/Kostka?"
 

TootooTrain

Sandpaper
Jun 12, 2010
35,505
460
Over-reaction ville holy cow. Fans in mid-season form hah. Gardiner has the ability and most importantly the demeanor to be able to handle any coaching that comes his way.
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
14,014
3
It's the "running out of time to get there" aspect that I question. Nobody is playing at the level they did in the playoffs, it's pre-season. He's clearly not the same as he was 2 seasons ago, he's much more willing to engage physically and he's more confident. That comes across pretty clearly watching these games.

As for Carlyle and his coaching, why can't you question his system? Do you think he's the best coach in the league? Is it the best system in the league? I don't think either are true and I doubt many would argue that. He mishandled the Lupul situation and has admitted that. He didn't give him the chance to play on the left side, he didn't think he was capable. He clearly is. Most of the training improvements came after the back surgery, while he was in Anaheim, so that point is kind've out the window.

I question the wording a little bit myself, but compared to the playoff Gardiner he isn't the same. Once again it's the pre season, so i hardly put any stock into it. But when I see JVR this pre season, I see a much improved player. I don't think the same of Gardiner.

It's not the best system in the league, I meant you can't question its success. He brought a team to the playoffs with a team of mostly outcast players. His system gave us one of the best PKs, and a successful PK for the first time in years.

James Reimer not Carlyle.

It totally had nothing to do with the system.
 

Bedards Dad

I was in the pool!!
Nov 3, 2011
13,717
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Toronto
We have a great pre-season, lose one bad game and Leafs Nation collapses... Just like old times, you guys never disappoint.
 

Sergei Berezin

You're Wrong
Jan 5, 2007
6,567
92
Ottawa, ON
LOL you guys crack me up.

Preseason!

You think these guys are trying to win? They're tuning their own games.

Most of Detroit's shots, and obviously goals, came from the PP. They play a less 'rough' style of hockey than Toronto, which makes it easier on them to go hard in preseason.

For Toronto, our guys play well when they're banging bodies down low, making big hits, getting in front of the net and doing the dirty work. Guys like Bolland, Clarkson, JVR, Lupul and Kadri seem to elevate their play as soon as they start throwing their weight around. In fact, its been beyond noticeable that Lupul has tried to avoid all contact in preseason, which is something I'm personally happy about given his injury history.

Anyway... tl;dr - relax MOD
 
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EdBelfour20

Registered User
Jan 19, 2004
863
14
I will be done if Carlyle runs Jake out. I swear to God I'll be done. What in God's name is this!?!? This has to be a joke. Please tell me this is a joke. Our coach literally cannot be this brain dead stupid. Right?

agreed. Gardiner is pure skill. The guy is practically a rookie, expect a couple of mistakes ffs.
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
14,014
3
What is a winning system exactly?

I don't want a system that wins us 3 playoff games. I want 16 playoff games.

If there is anyone to blame...it's Carlyle for his bonehead decisions. Carlyle says Gardiner played well in the playoffs.

Guess what? If not for Kostka breaking his hand...Gardiner wouldn't have played a single game.

Why can't these reporters ask hard questions? All they ever do is write about corsi and fenwick. Real easy job.

How about asking the coach: "Why does Bozak play on the first PP?"
"Why was Kostka playing 25 minutes?"
"Why was Holzer playing 22 minutes?"
"Why was Liles benched for Holzer/Kostka?"

A winning system gets us 5th place in the east over a larger sample size than 7 games.

Gardiner was terrible when he came back from concussions. Like worse than your average NHLer. I can see why he didn't want to put him in against the Bruins right away.
 

Pi

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
48,856
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Toronto
Who the **** cares. We made it to the playoffs and almost beat Boston in 7. That's good enough for me.

If that's good enough...we're not winning a Cup till 2067 (if we're lucky).

Almost isn't good enough.

I bet Boston didn't say: "Good season guys, we almost won the Cup"

I bet they said: "Damn we were close but we need to get better if we want to win"
 

pcruz

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
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Vaughan
What the ****? Running out of time? Is Carlyle taking his meds? Surely he realizes Ranger/Fraser or even Phaneuf haven't been better than Jake in this preseason.

Jake Gardiner has a terrible habit of getting caught behind the opponent's net when they have an odd man rush. His skating is great, but he can't rely on that to get him back into position.

The guy has the physical skills and attributes, but his mental game is much too focused on creating plays and helping offensively that he completely ignores the defensive part of being, well, a defenseman.

If throwing him back to the AHL last season, playing him during the playoffs when he played his position well, and a full pre-season is not enough to drill that into his brain, then his time as an NHL defenseman is quickly coming to an end.

He will end up becoming a smooth-skating, but largely ineffective left winger if he can't get it.
 

TheLeastOfTheBunch

Franchise Centre
Jun 28, 2007
38,541
305
Toronto
Well the Carlyle media scrum is on the Leafs website right now. Seems more like he was talking about Gardiner getting back to his playoff level of play by the time the regular season starts.
 

Crispy Crust

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
18,250
996
Toronto
Reimer didn't carry the team. Sure he had a good sv%, but that was mostly inflated because of Carlyle's system. I mean Ben ****ING Scrivens had .915 SV% and played 20 games.

It's pretty ****ing obvious to the whole world that James Reimer carried this team to the playoffs. Yes the offense was good, but this team does not make the playoffs last season without Reimer playing the way he did.
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
14,014
3
It's pretty ****ing obvious to the whole world that James Reimer carried this team to the playoffs. Yes the offense was good, but this team does not make the playoffs last season without Reimer playing the way he did.

His system inflated goalie totals. Yes Reimer played well but you can't ignore the fact that Scrivens had a great season as well. The system was designed for goalies to look good.

Who brought that system again?
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
15,373
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Toronto
What is a winning system exactly?

I don't want a system that wins us 3 playoff games. I want 16 playoff games.

If there is anyone to blame...it's Carlyle for his bonehead decisions. Carlyle says Gardiner played well in the playoffs.

Guess what? If not for Kostka breaking his hand...Gardiner wouldn't have played a single game.

Why can't these reporters ask hard questions? All they ever do is write about corsi and fenwick. Real easy job.

How about asking the coach: "Why does Bozak play on the first PP?"
"Why was Kostka playing 25 minutes?"
"Why was Holzer playing 22 minutes?"
"Why was Liles benched for Holzer/Kostka?"
How would Carlyle known that Gardiner would have played well in the post-season? If you didn't remember, Gardiner was terrible right before the playoffs started. Sure the Kostka part was mistake, but he took the leafs in game 7 against Boston. That's all the matters to me.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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His system inflated goalie totals. Yes Reimer played well but

then why did Reimer look just as good as a rookie in Wilson's system, with just as good numbers?

he had that wilson-coached team winning at a playoff pace, too.
 

leafstilldeath*

Guest
Did you notice that our PP was missing it's most lethal weapon? And by the way, your logic is stupid and I'm not sure I want to spend a whole essay worth of space giving you examples of how. If the team keeps making mistakes in one area of their game, they can find ways to manipulate and adjust in order to limit those mistakes (which may be due to personnel and not system). If a team learns from one mistake at the cost of making other 'new' mistakes then you have a team that'll never get anywhere because being perfect isn't an option and you can't keep changing your system to adjust for every new set of mistakes the team starts to make.

Beasting would suggest that these players were playing well above their abilities. Have these players played enough to suggest that they aren't capable of sustaining that kind of play? Get out of here with that fortune telling BS.

:facepalm:

PP missing the most lethal weapon has nothing to do with how bad Dion is at puck management on PP. Your analogy is do dumb. Its like failing to make a light bulb 100 times and still using the same methodology.

Their beastly performances led to the playoffs. Most importantly, James Reimer. Second, in your dictionary if you have beastly=playing well above their abilities then gtfo not my problem
 

FlareKnight

Registered User
Jun 26, 2006
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Alberta
Well lose a preseason game and everything goes to hell. At least we're getting tuned for the regular season just like the roster :).

Glad the preseason is just about over though. Time to get back to games mattering for points.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
15,373
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Toronto
It's pretty ****ing obvious to the whole world that James Reimer carried this team to the playoffs. Yes the offense was good, but this team does not make the playoffs last season without Reimer playing the way he did.

I don't think you know the meaning of carrying a team. There's Lundquist/quick (playoff mode) carrying team style and then there's Reimer/Dubnyk. I give credited to Reimer last year, but he didn't carry the team as much as Lundquist did or Quick (in the playoffs)
 

Pi

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
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It's pretty ****ing obvious to the whole world that James Reimer carried this team to the playoffs. Yes the offense was good, but this team does not make the playoffs last season without Reimer playing the way he did.

True. The Leafs weren't bad as the shot clock indicated but they weren't as good as people think under "Carlyle's system," we were an average team with an above average goalie.

We better pray that our goalies are good enough or this team starts playing smarter.

It's only preseason but I just hope Carlyle doesn't make any dumb decisions this year. Let's hope there isn't a Kostka or Holzer type mistake this season..you expect that from rookie coaches, not veteran Cup winning coaches.
 

BIitz

GRANT = SOFT
Oct 5, 2010
14,014
3
then why did Reimer look just as good as a rookie in Wilson's system, with just as good numbers?

he had that wilson-coached team winning at a playoff pace, too.

Why did Reimer look just as good in his sophomore season in Wilsons system?
 

Pi

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
48,856
13,830
Toronto
I don't think you know the meaning of carrying a team. There's Lundquist/quick (playoff mode) carrying team style and then there's Reimer/Dubnyk. I give credited to Reimer last year, but he didn't carry the team as much as Lundquist did or Quick (in the playoffs)

Very bad example.

Dubynk -----> Lead Oilers to 7th overall pick.
Reimer -----> Lead Leafs to 5th in East + playoffs.
 
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