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Red Stanley

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I'm not sure that's relevant.

I didn't say fans had a huge impact on the team performance but the fan base can and occasionslly does influence certain decisions. Toronto fans were at their wit's end by the time Shanahan got here and he felt free to blow it up. If fans demanded wins every night, despite the team having no realistic chance to compete, I doubt Shanahan would feel so free to trade assets and lose.

Fair point. I was just referring to the way people choose to cheer for their team. I don't consider people cheering for losses to be cheering against their team, when losing would clearly benefit the organization more than winning, even if it sometimes gets on my nerves. On the flip side, I don't consider fans cheering for wins (it's what defines being a fan) to be counterproductive to positive organizational goals. As a general rule of thumb, fans who demand things shouldn't be taken seriously. Doing it as a group is just bullying. We're not owed positive results, unless we're shareholders. Vote with your money as an individual. It's the best way to show support/displeasure. Social media is often representative of the vocal minority, rather than the average fan, though it's still a pretty useful tool if not abused.
 
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jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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First thing first, I'm not trying to demean you, but your boss and you have nothing to do with my hypothetical.

Second, Ken Holland should have stepped down when Yzerman was offered the job. Probably works better for Yzerman, so good for him. He deserves the best.

Thirdly, what you call moronic, is what they call making money. It's been no secret that the only time the Red Wings make money is if they make the playoffs, and that's when it was Joe Louis Arena and the cost of running that dump probably wasn't that high compared to LCA. Can you imagine the electric bill now? Now add the Pistons. Now account for the even worse attendance they have.

It's unfortunate fans don't realize any professional sports organization is a business, and in any business, it's about making money. Not appeasing your fans' feelings. In fact, no more than 5-10 people actually care about your feelings.

But here's the thing about making the playoffs. It attracts the casual fan. The casual fan thinks if the Red Wings make the playoffs they have a chance to win it, after all, they've been good for how long? If they make the playoffs, all of a sudden I can charge A LOT more money for tickets. And all of a sudden I have supplemental income. Money I can invest, or give back to the community, or set aside for my family.

So now Chris Illitch is in a position to make a judgement on whether Ken Holland can successfully rebuild the team, and if he can, is he able to sustain the same profit he was able to give the great Mr. Illitch.
Oh, it's COMPLETELY about the money for them, and I have zero delusions that anybody actually cares about the fans, at least beyond that the fans keep spending money to help their bottom line.

That's why it's become the same with me.

Either they dance for me, and provide a return on investment (in terms of a high degree of entertainment, via both talent and success), or they don't have my business.

And since I have no faith whatsoever in the current regime being able to assemble a product worth watching, I hope they lose, and I hope they clean house this off season.

If they keep the band together for another few years, it's most likely another few wasted years, and at that point, I'll probably finally arrive at apathy, and phase out my interest entirely, including things like posting on message boards. Which is sad, but life's too short to rail against things forever, and if they want to be a low hanging fruit kind of team, then ultimately I can't stop them.

But hopefully it doesn't come to that, and the desire for an excellent product returns to being a high priority. We'll see.
 
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Scott Malkinson

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Sep 29, 2017
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Fair point. I was just referring to the way people choose to cheer for their team. I don't consider people cheering for losses to be cheering against their team, when losing would clearly benefit the organization more than winning, even if it sometimes gets on my nerves. On the flip side, I don't consider fans cheering for wins (it's what defines being a fan) to be counterproductive to positive organizational goals. As a general rule of thumb, fans who demand things shouldn't be taken seriously. Doing it as a group is just bullying. We're not owed positive results, unless we're shareholders. Vote with your money as an individual. It's the best way to show support/displeasure. Social media is often representative of the vocal minority, rather than the average fan, though it's still a pretty useful tool if not abused.

There are average fans who show up to game 72 and are cheering for that win against Arizona or Buffalo, despite the fact that getting 2 points in regulation is the worst possible outcome for the team. These fans can do what they please but their desire for a win in a meaningless season may be the difference between adding Drew Doughty or adding a Luke Schenn.

Usually, tank nation ends up on the right side of history.

Also about the part about not being owed positive results. I think as an Original 6 organization, your loyal fan base should expect positive results. Sometimes the positive results result from losing and being rewarded for tolerating a few bad years.

Organizations that are on the fringe cannot withstand open rebuilds because their fairweather fans will just walk away. If your ownership knows you are loyal and will grind through a few bad years, they should strive to give you positive results.

It's not that complicated. If Detroit is in a position to go into the lottery with the best odds at drafting Rasmus f***ing Dahlin, every single DRW fan should be cheering for a regulation loss.

Mario Lemieux was almost a NJ Devil but the Devils decided to compete for wins to close a failed season and they ended up with Kirk Muller.

It is 100% counterproductive to cheer for team wins, when you know you have absolutely no chance at making the playoffs.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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There are average fans who show up to game 72 and are cheering for that win against Arizona or Buffalo, despite the fact that getting 2 points in regulation is the worst possible outcome for the team. These fans can do what they please but their desire for a win in a meaningless season may be the difference between adding Drew Doughty or adding a Luke Schenn.

Usually, tank nation ends up on the right side of history.

Also about the part about not being owed positive results. I think as an Original 6 organization, your loyal fan base should expect positive results. Sometimes the positive results result from losing and being rewarded for tolerating a few bad years.

Organizations that are on the fringe cannot withstand open rebuilds because their fairweather fans will just walk away. If your ownership knows you are loyal and will grind through a few bad years, they should strive to give you positive results.

It's not that complicated. If Detroit is in a position to go into the lottery with the best odds at drafting Rasmus ****ing Dahlin, every single DRW fan should be cheering for a regulation loss.

Mario Lemieux was almost a NJ Devil but the Devils decided to compete for wins to close a failed season and they ended up with Kirk Muller.

It is 100% counterproductive to cheer for team wins, when you know you have absolutely no chance at making the playoffs.
You get it. Either do what it takes to strive for the highest excellence in your field, or don't bother.
 

Scott Malkinson

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Sep 29, 2017
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Fans that cheer for wins during a tank season are not very smart fans. They have not taken the long term interest of the organization into consideration. They are the same fans that will come around in a couple years and tell you the Red Wings suck and they can't understand why.

The best season the Maple Leafs have had in my liftime was 2015/2016. We lost a lot but competed like dogs in every single game. Lamoriello traded off assets and stacked the prospect pool. We then went into the draft lottery and came away with possibly the most talented player in the 100 year history of the organization.

During that season, I lost my mind when fans were cheering for meaningless games. It was almost as if they were completely unaware of what was on the line.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Seems a lot of people are already getting upset after two losing seasons. Curious to see what the sentiment is like after five or more. I don't believe team this has any shot at competing for another five years minimum. Better get comfy.

You get it. Either do what it takes to strive for the highest excellence in your field, or don't bother.

The "rebuild" of this team has only just begun. You can't go from perennial playoff team to a basement dweller in one off season. There will be plenty of upcoming seasons where this team is at the bottom of the league. I don't know why everyone is in such a hurry around here. Kick back and enjoy a decade of losing hockey.

Fans that cheer for wins during a tank season are not very smart fans.

No one cares what Leafs fans think.
 
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Scott Malkinson

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You get it. Either do what it takes to strive for the highest excellence in your field, or don't bother.

The myth in Toronto before Shanahan was that the Maple Leafs fan base would not accept a full rebuild. That myth lead to trading Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft. The idea that fans want to see wins now leads to managerial decisions with short term goals in mind, rather than what's good for the future.

Thankfully for social media (Twitter), organizations are exposed to the fan base and understand that it's okay to just gut it and be a failure standings wise.

Going forward trying to stay afloat is the absolute worst thing for an organization.
 
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Red Stanley

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Apr 25, 2015
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There are average fans who show up to game 72 and are cheering for that win against Arizona or Buffalo, despite the fact that getting 2 points in regulation is the worst possible outcome for the team. These fans can do what they please but their desire for a win in a meaningless season may be the difference between adding Drew Doughty or adding a Luke Schenn.

How are they the difference? Wouldn't the players and coaching staff have way more say in what happens during games? Should we start blaming them for ruining organizational goals, too?

Usually, tank nation ends up on the right side of history.

Also about the part about not being owed positive results. I think as an Original 6 organization, your loyal fan base should expect positive results. Sometimes the positive results result from losing and being rewarded for tolerating a few bad years.

Wish, want, expect are all very different from demand. You're not owed anything for liking your team, buying merch, going to games, or enduring the bad stretches. It's completely voluntary.

Organizations that are on the fringe cannot withstand open rebuilds because their fairweather fans will just walk away. If your ownership knows you are loyal and will grind through a few bad years, they should strive to give you positive results.

Of course they do. It's their job. It's just that the job is harder for some and easier for others due to a multitude of circumstances that have nothing to do with their desire to own/manage the best team possible. It's not about pleasing the fans. Nothing short of a championship will please "the fans" as a collective. Not even fans care what pleases other fans, unless they have a personal stake in it.

It's not that complicated. If Detroit is in a position to go into the lottery with the best odds at drafting Rasmus ****ing Dahlin, every single DRW fan should be cheering for a regulation loss.

Mario Lemieux was almost a NJ Devil but the Devils decided to compete for wins to close a failed season and they ended up with Kirk Muller.

It is 100% counterproductive to cheer for team wins, when you know you have absolutely no chance at making the playoffs.

Again, totally disagree. It's rather silly to begrudge fans for being fans. Finger pointing and blame games among people who have no power to directly affect the things they're blaming each other for is an indication of projecting personal issues that have nothing to do with what's discussed. At the end of the day, I don't care what you personally want and neither should you care what I personally want. And if they had a lottery back then, Mario might've been a NJ Devil. Didn't stop NJ from winning championships during Mario's player career, did it?
 
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Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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The myth in Toronto before Shanahan was that the Maple Leafs fan base would not accept a full rebuild. That myth lead to trading Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft. The idea that fans want to see wins now leads to managerial decisions with short term goals in mind, rather than what's good for the future.

Thankfully for social media (Twitter), organizations are exposed to the fan base and understand that it's okay to just gut it and be a failure standings wise.

Going forward trying to stay afloat is the absolute worst thing for an organization.

You're literally making no sense. There is no comparison to what Detroit had done the past five years in trying to remain competitive to what Toronto did from 2005-2016. Detroit never traded franchise altering draft picks or prospects like the Leafs did that set them back further. Detroit is bad now through natural attrition.
 

Red Stanley

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Fans that cheer for wins during a tank season are not very smart fans. They have not taken the long term interest of the organization into consideration. They are the same fans that will come around in a couple years and tell you the Red Wings suck and they can't understand why.

The best season the Maple Leafs have had in my liftime was 2015/2016. We lost a lot but competed like dogs in every single game. Lamoriello traded off assets and stacked the prospect pool. We then went into the draft lottery and came away with possibly the most talented player in the 100 year history of the organization.

During that season, I lost my mind when fans were cheering for meaningless games. It was almost as if they were completely unaware of what was on the line.

The "people who disagree with me are wrong and dumb" argument won't get you far in life, or on sports message boards.

Edit: just to clarify, the long-term interests of an organization aren't the responsibility of fans. For example, while the Wings were beating the crap out of the rest of the NHL for 20 years, I couldn't care less who the GM was, what deals he made and whom he drafted. You're welcome, Red Wings!
 
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Scott Malkinson

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Sep 29, 2017
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You're literally making no sense. There is no comparison to what Detroit had done the past five years in trying to remain competitive to what Toronto did from 2005-2016. Detroit never traded franchise altering draft picks or prospects like the Leafs did that set them back further. Detroit is bad now through natural attrition.

In 2006, Toronto was bad through natural attrition. The market did not accept the idea of finishing last in the league. The team made costly mistakes because fans expected wins, even though the team was garbage on paper.

Anyways, I think I'm done here.

I wish you guys the best.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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In 2006, Toronto was bad through natural attrition. The market did not accept the idea of finishing last in the league. The team made costly mistakes because fans expected wins, even though the team was garbage on paper.

Anyways, I think I'm done here.

I wish you guys the best.

Thanks for the history lesson.
 
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Red Stanley

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In 2006, Toronto was bad through natural attrition. The market did not accept the idea of finishing last in the league. The team made costly mistakes because fans expected wins, even though the team was garbage on paper.

Anyways, I think I'm done here.

I wish you guys the best.

Ty and enjoy your team in the playoffs :thumbu:
 
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really
Edit: just to clarify, the long-term interests of an organization aren't the responsibility of fans. For example, while the Wings were beating the crap out of the rest of the NHL for 20 years, I couldn't care less who the GM was, what deals he made and whom he drafted. You're welcome, Red Wings!
That's... not being much of a fan. That's like proclaiming yourself a huge Led Zeppelin fan and only being able to say you like the guy with the hair. Fan is short for fanatic. You're describing people who just find hockey kind of neat.
 

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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Seems a lot of people are already getting upset after two losing seasons. Curious to see what the sentiment is like after five or more. I don't believe team this has any shot at competing for another five years minimum. Better get comfy.

The "rebuild" of this team has only just begun. You can't go from perennial playoff team to a basement dweller in one off season. There will be plenty of upcoming seasons where this team is at the bottom of the league. I don't know why everyone is in such a hurry around here. Kick back and enjoy a decade of losing hockey.
You're assuming that losing games is what people are upset about, which isn't true.

They could go 0-82, but if I liked the plan in place, and I thought the decisions being made would eventually lead to a vastly improved product, and another championship(s), I would actually watch more games than I do now, and cheer harder for the team.

As it stands now, they're just wasting as many years as it takes to eventually clean house (and change ownership, if the "stay afloat" directive comes from the very top).

Losing hockey is fine, because it presents rebuilding opportunities. It's losing with people in charge that can't solve the problem that's pointless.
 

Nut Upstrom

You dirty dog!
Dec 18, 2010
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Fans that cheer for wins during a tank season are not very smart fans. They have not taken the long term interest of the organization into consideration. They are the same fans that will come around in a couple years and tell you the Red Wings suck and they can't understand why.

The best season the Maple Leafs have had in my liftime was 2015/2016. We lost a lot but competed like dogs in every single game. Lamoriello traded off assets and stacked the prospect pool. We then went into the draft lottery and came away with possibly the most talented player in the 100 year history of the organization.

During that season, I lost my mind when fans were cheering for meaningless games. It was almost as if they were completely unaware of what was on the line.

Well, thank goodness we have Leaf fans who are generous and kind enough to come here, hold our hands and teach us how to do this 'fan thing.' The nerve of me for giving my girlfriend a high five when we score and for not dashing to my PC to share my giddiness when our opponent scores! I guess I'm just not a very smart fan.
But really, I grasp the situation my team is in and I did even before you came here to esplain it to the "not very smart" among us. And it's even more appreciated that you shared with me the type of fan I will morph into in the near future. So I'll be telling everyone the Red Wings suck? Scott, they do suck right now and I fully understand why - but I watch them and root for them and will continue to do so; just as I've grown up watching the Lions and rooting for the best from them. This does not mean I am delusional and ignore the fact that losing will help in the long term. I look back at last night's game and I shrug it off. We lost. Okay, hopefully this helps us land a better draft pick - and I'll approach the next game in the same way, I'll watch from my living room and cheer our goals and shrug off the goals against us. I'll high five our wins and shrug off our losses as better for the long term. I can be pleased that we are moving into a better drafting position without celebrating a loss.

What you won't catch me doing is publicly applauding any team scoring on my team or beating my team and I'm sorry if that makes smart fans like you lose their minds.
 

turkleton85

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Dec 12, 2017
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Fans that cheer for wins during a tank season are not very smart fans. They have not taken the long term interest of the organization into consideration. They are the same fans that will come around in a couple years and tell you the Red Wings suck and they can't understand why.


wasting hundreds of hours a season watching 10 men chase a puck and trying to put it into a goal doesn't seem to be very smart as well - but if i do it, i want to cheer when we win. It doesn't have an impact on the teams performance - if the team sucks, it will be bad in the standings. We understand that these last two seasons are a result of the leagues system and the way the wings operated in the last few years. Cheering for a team to lose is a losers mentality, and you might be better served to spend your time otherwise
 

TheMule93

On a mule rides the swindler
May 26, 2015
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I enjoy watching hockey win or lose, I don't mind sacrificing some of wins now in order to have a shot at way more in the not-too-distant future
 

BinCookin

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Feb 15, 2012
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London, ON
Its ok to be conflicted.

Larkin scored list night, and i fist pump.
Same with Nielsen etc.

In the end when we lost, i can know we will get a star next year.

For me, its a win win. I watch the game, and am entertained eithr way.
But i think deep down once i think about it, its good we are losing.
that doesn't mean i really enjoy watching a game with that end result, but I do like watching us score, in any game, no matter the outcome.
 
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The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,956
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The myth in Toronto before Shanahan was that the Maple Leafs fan base would not accept a full rebuild. That myth lead to trading Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft. The idea that fans want to see wins now leads to managerial decisions with short term goals in mind, rather than what's good for the future.

Thankfully for social media (Twitter), organizations are exposed to the fan base and understand that it's okay to just gut it and be a failure standings wise.

Going forward trying to stay afloat is the absolute worst thing for an organization.

The myth is that Toronto fans should be going around telling people how to successfully build a championship team. They don't know yet.... They were extremely lucky winning the lottery in their tanktastic intentional fail to get Matthews. It worked but it doesn't actually mean you're winning anything of substance. The Leafs were drafting fairly high for years anyway, your #2C and #1D (at least on your team) came very high in the draft while they were already bad for years.

They still have a couple moves to make to fix the backend and they play in the wrong division which is really what is starting to concern me as a Wings fan. I mean Tampa and Boston are not old, Florida is really good with a legit #1 D and #1 championship winning hockey center. Buffalo is about to get a top 5 pick that should be better than yes even Marner and Nylander when I look at this year's draft and if it is Dahlin him and Risto are going to be a nightmare. They need to get a goalie but Leafs fans can see that isn't necessarily always daunting especially if you have the talent around them.

The Wings will be stockpiling picks. But for as bad as people thing the Atlantic is this year it is about to be a gauntlet in my opinion. That Toronto fans walk around talking about when is interesting to me, I am not sure as currently constructed there is a when given who they will need to go through and the other young teams that will keep getting better.

Detroit and Montreal might be scrapping the bottom for the next couple years and that is fine. That is our timeline (not Montreal's though) in fact given what I have just outlined it is probably an ideal time to rebuild. No rebuild is like another though, teams that intentionally fail for a couple years have had a hard time getting it back on track. I will be curious to see how quickly the Wings become competitive again, but we will know when they are turning the corner as a fanbase. You know we have seen a Stanley Cup Winning hockey team several times in our lives and know what it takes to have one built and what it looks like on the ice. The Wings or their fans are not far removed from this understanding.

I am not rooting for this team to lose like others. I am not demanding they trade or anything like that. It would be nice to hear the plan and that is what I expect to know early summer. Who the GM is and what seems to be the plan they want to push publicly. The players should always play hard and play to win, I expect that anytime I watch the Wings play. Just right now it hurts less when they lose is all, given that nothing is at stake.
 
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Marky9er

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Jan 30, 2008
7,476
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What are the odds Dahlin ends up in Detroit/Buffalo/Ottawa/Montreal? Seems like the most likely division for better or worse. Hopefully if not us, it's Arizona.
 

Scott Malkinson

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
1,135
808
The myth is that Toronto fans should be going around telling people how to successfully build a championship team. They don't know yet.... They were extremely lucky winning the lottery in their tanktastic intentional fail to get Matthews. It worked but it doesn't actually mean you're winning anything of substance. The Leafs were drafting fairly high for years anyway, your #2C and #1D (at least on your team) came very high in the draft while they were already bad for years.

They still have a couple moves to make to fix the backend and they play in the wrong division which is really what is starting to concern me as a Wings fan. I mean Tampa and Boston are not old, Florida is really good with a legit #1 D and #1 championship winning hockey center. Buffalo is about to get a top 5 pick that should be better than yes even Marner and Nylander when I look at this year's draft and if it is Dahlin him and Risto are going to be a nightmare. They need to get a goalie but Leafs fans can see that isn't necessarily always daunting especially if you have the talent around them.

The Wings will be stockpiling picks. But for as bad as people thing the Atlantic is this year it is about to be a gauntlet in my opinion. That Toronto fans walk around talking about when is interesting to me, I am not sure as currently constructed there is a when given who they will need to go through and the other young teams that will keep getting better.

Detroit and Montreal might be scrapping the bottom for the next couple years and that is fine. That is our timeline (not Montreal's though) in fact given what I have just outlined it is probably an ideal time to rebuild. No rebuild is like another though, teams that intentionally fail for a couple years have had a hard time getting it back on track. I will be curious to see how quickly the Wings become competitive again, but we will know when they are turning the corner as a fanbase. You know we have seen a Stanley Cup Winning hockey team several times in our lives and know what it takes to have one built and what it looks like on the ice. The Wings or their fans are not far removed from this understanding.

I am not rooting for this team to lose like others. I am not demanding they trade or anything like that. It would be nice to hear the plan and that is what I expect to know early summer. Who the GM is and what seems to be the plan they want to push publicly. The players should always play hard and play to win, I expect that anytime I watch the Wings play. Just right now it hurts less when they lose is all, given that nothing is at stake.

I wasn't telling Red Wings fans how to build a winner. You're the last fan base that needs to be lectured on that. I was just talking about my experiences as a fan of a bad team. For as much as you guys have won in this league, most of your fan base has no idea what it's like to lose.

I didn't think it would piss anyone off.

My intentions weren't bad.
 

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