Despite the IIHF rankings quality of Russia's men's players may be at an all time low

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PeacEnforcer

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May 6, 2011
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Well, yes. The Soviet Union was the real winner of the 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups. I don't see how anyone can call that result a "victory" for Canada when it was a direct result of referee bias.

Bias?? U call it "bias"??? How about downright murder?! For murder it was, particularly in 1987, when koharski alone handed the victory to the otherwise badly struggling and outplayed hosts on a silver plate:rant::rant::rant:

Or how they "neutralized" kharlamov (whom their "superpros" just did not now how to handle) in the 6th game of the 1972 summit series by breaking his leg?! And - surprise, surprise - won all the remaining matches:sarcasm:

But do they ever talk about it? Or about the refs or small rinks or home advantage? NO F.CKING WAY. NEVER. Needless to say why - because it simply doesn't fit their fav fable of Canadian "superiority":laugh:

However I believe it's pointless bringing it up myself and do so only when I come across another die-hard Canadian hockey bigot who just refuse to see the other side of the story.
 

duga

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Jan 28, 2010
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The defense was the weakness throughout the WC tournament, in my opinion. They had great difficulty clearing the puck out of the Russian zone, and with opposing forwards cycling around, and the puck pinballing all over the place, eventually the puck ends up in your net.

For this, I think Bykov and Zakharkin are responsible. They are responsible for organizing a breakout play that the defensemen can execute. It has to be coordinated with the forwards, and the defensemen have to be able to get rid of the puck right away, without having to take the time to stop or look around. The Russians did not have an effective breakout play, and it cost them in this tournament.

Russia used the stretch pass a lot, passing from inside their own zone to the opposite blue line. That play was effective in 2008, but the other teams are ready for it now, and stack up along the blue line. They just kept trying it, unfortunately, which I interpret to mean that Bykov and Zakharkin failed to change tactics, even though they weren't working.

a lot of true stuff in here,

I'd like to add: I agree that the quality of the first pass was a big problem, and the all-around smartness on D is probably on a historical low. but for the lack of coordination, the forwards are guilty as well, their lack of support (or sharing the puck smartly) and poor positioning, when coming through the neutral zone was a big concern. and if you have to recieve a mediocre long pass, and you allready stand on the toes of 3 opposing players, don't dangle (except you are Datsyuk), but redirect it and go hard. I repeat, I still miss this element in most russian players' minds, it would make their game so much less predictable, and eventually much harder to play against, when it's executed correctly.

Their D system has been all the same through all years with Bykov, IMO, it's a passive , controlling system, taking out passing lines. Keeping the opponent's play on the perimeter, more than forcing the clearence of the zone. they are constantly weak in holding their own blueline. It's effective when perfectly executed (like in the 3rd period against CAN at the WC 2009), but it's a bit anacronistic.

I know time changes memory, but IIRC, the WC-Final win 2008 and the loss at the OG against Canada. I had the same feelings in both games through most of the game. Completely outplayed both times in the first period by a stronger,simpler, smarter and fast-playing system, with the Russians struggeling heavily to pass the canadian blue line. IMO, if the quality had been a bit higher in Canada's team 2008 they could have finished Russia through 2 periods, they missed several open-net plays on the backdoor. And than a combination of Canada getting more passive on D, opening the blueline, and the unbroken, desperate passion in Russia's team turned this game into one of my alltime favourites. :) they won despite their system.

or generally put, when I started watching hockey (mid 80s), Russia had the best system on international level, nowadays it's one of the worst...
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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Oh, please, Mr Kanadensisk, cut this BS. Who do you think you are kidding? What u are trying to pull here is palm off your personal, totally far-fetched opinion as a universal truth. Whereas it’s more than well established to measure the success of a country in a sport by its achievements at major tournaments and by the results of its showdowns with the sport’s major powerhouses! Do u seriously believe that your challenging this status quo makes it a tiny bit less viable or generally accepted than before??

On the other hand, not only do you come up with a highly controversial, far-fetched and outlandish idea of how to determine a country’s strength, but u messed it all up even here: ‘cause as the statistics, provided above by Theokritos (Post #25) and the facts pointed out by me, convincingly show u simply tampered with the evidence to make it fit your story and mislead the audience:thumbd::thumbd::thumbd:. In other words, u don’t have a leg to stand on with your preposterous, reality-defying claims. Case closed! Period.

I think the statistics Theokritos supplied support my argument, so I'm not sure what else to say about that.

When the WJC were a Best on Best tournament for the U20 age group I felt they did give a fairly reasonable snapshot of the talent each country was producing every year. Again I wouldn't put too much weight on any one tournament, but the average results over a number of years do say something.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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When did the Soviet national team play together for the most of the year? It never did.

No but the entire Soviet nation team was concentrated on 2 or 3 club teams all playing in Moscow, not to mention they played in a lot of tournaments together. I think it's safe to say that they had way, way, way more practice time together than anyone else (except maybe Czksvk).

I think the most impressive thing about Canada in the Soviet era is that we could slap a team together at the last minute and all but once defeat the closest thing to a full time national team the world has ever seen.
 
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CanadianHockey

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Jul 3, 2009
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Bias?? U call it "bias"??? How about downright murder?! For murder it was, particularly in 1987, when koharski alone handed the victory to the otherwise badly struggling and outplayed hosts on a silver plate:rant::rant::rant:

Or how they "neutralized" kharlamov (whom their "superpros" just did not now how to handle) in the 6th game of the 1972 summit series by breaking his leg?! And - surprise, surprise - won all the remaining matches:sarcasm:

But do they ever talk about it? Or about the refs or small rinks or home advantage? NO F.CKING WAY. NEVER. Needless to say why - because it simply doesn't fit their fav fable of Canadian "superiority":laugh:

However I believe it's pointless bringing it up myself and do so only when I come across another die-hard Canadian hockey bigot who just refuse to see the other side of the story.

Part of it is just the refs were used to calling the North American game. The 72 Summit Series was in the Broad Street Bully era of the NHL; you were tough and could handle the goons, or you weren't going to win. That's what the mentality was, at least. The Clarke slash on Kharlamov was disgusting. The Soviets had a great national team/programme. I think Canadian fans should appreciate just how much the Canada-Soviet rivalry helped the game, and Hockey Canada, develop.

Sadly, many here do have a superiority complex and refuse to give credit to other countries' teams.

More on topic - I think the Russians have enough talent up front and in net, it's the backend that needs work.
 
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Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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No but the entire Soviet nation team was concentrated on 2 or 3 club teams all playing in Moscow, not to mention they played in a lot of tournaments together. I think it's safe to say that they had way, way, way more practice time together than anyone else (except maybe Czksvk).

I think the most impressive thing about Canada in the Soviet era is that we could slap a team together at the last minute and all but once defeat the closest thing to a full time national team the world has ever seen.

Actually, I would say it was the other way around. It was amazing that the Soviets could begin playing hockey in 1948, with no indoor arenas in the entire country, and within 24 years, embarrass those Canadians who promoted themselves as "NHL pros, the best in the World." The Soviets were supposed to be annihilated in that first game in Montreal - instead, they beat the Canadians 7-3. Isn't that the same score from Vancouver last year that Canadian fans keep holding up.

Practicing hockey is not a violation of international law, so the Soviets were free to practice as long and as hard as they wanted. The Canadians elected not to practice hard - bad choice! Also, it should be noted that 1972 was only five years after NHL expansion from 6 to 12 teams, so almost all the Canadian players came from the original six teams. All that is crap, what matters is hockey player against hockey player. The Soviets proved that they could become the equal of the NHL's best in record time.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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Actually, I would say it was the other way around. It was amazing that the Soviets could begin playing hockey in 1948, with no indoor arenas in the entire country, and within 24 years, embarrass those Canadians who promoted themselves as "NHL pros, the best in the World." The Soviets were supposed to be annihilated in that first game in Montreal - instead, they beat the Canadians 7-3. Isn't that the same score from Vancouver last year that Canadian fans keep holding up.

Practicing hockey is not a violation of international law, so the Soviets were free to practice as long and as hard as they wanted. The Canadians elected not to practice hard - bad choice! Also, it should be noted that 1972 was only five years after NHL expansion from 6 to 12 teams, so almost all the Canadian players came from the original six teams. All that is crap, what matters is hockey player against hockey player. The Soviets proved that they could become the equal of the NHL's best in record time.

I always get a chuckle when I hear a pro Soviet talk about International Law and choice.:laugh::laugh:

But joking aside the rise of Soviet hockey is an incredible accomplishment that you should be very proud of. However in this sport team play is paramount and it is something that takes time to perfect.

Having said all of that I was hoping we could actually have a thread about Russian hockey that didn't revert back to what was going on 40 years ago.:)
 
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Peter25

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Part of it is just the refs were used to calling the North American game.
No. It was different rules for the two teams. Canada could do things the Soviets could not without being penalized. It was not about "calling a North American game" but holding the home team to a different standards than the Soviets.

The officiating of Don Koharski in 1987 is one of the biggest embarrassments of Canadian hockey history and this is the reason why Canada should stop referring the 1987 Canada Cup as a victory. It was not a victory for Canada. Soviet Union won that tournament.
 

VMBM

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Sep 24, 2008
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I though reffing was ok in 1984. 1987 was set up for Canada to win though. I think most people apart from Canadians would admit to this.

I think you're talking to a wall.

But yeah, I'd really like to hear how did the Soviets get robbed in 1984. When I watch the game, I basically see Canada slightly dominating somewhat disorganized Soviets.

The only case of 'controversy' I saw was that the ref(s) gave a penalty to a USSR player in the overtime but not to Canadians when Krutov was offended in USSR's offensive zone a little later on. Anyway, CAN did not score the GWG during the penalty. Overall, both teams had 5 x 2 min., and both scored 1 goal on the PP.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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I think you're talking to a wall.

But yeah, I'd really like to hear how did the Soviets get robbed in 1984. When I watch the game, I basically see Canada slightly dominating somewhat disorganized Soviets.

The only case of 'controversy' I saw was that the ref(s) gave a penalty to a USSR player in the overtime but not to Canadians when Krutov was offended in USSR's offensive zone a little later on. Anyway, CAN did not score the GWG during the penalty. Overall, both teams had 5 x 2 min., and both scored 1 goal on the PP.

As far as the 1984 Canada Cup goes, that Soviet team was not one of the better ones. They narrowly escaped defeat against a Swedish team that outplayed them, and the game against the US was close to a draw. The only game they played well in was against Canada in the round robin. They beat Canada 6-3 in Edmonton, and after that game, Alan Eagleson decreed that no European referee would work a Canada Cup game ever again. Canada owned the Canada Cup (it was not an IIHF tournament), so Canada had the right to change the rules in the middle of the stream to whatever suited their advantage.

Of course, we Russian fans believe that Eagleson was asserting his power because the referee in question, Dag Olsson of Sweden, called penalties against the Canadians when they were blatant and deserved. Eagleson replaced Olsson, who was scheduled to work the Soviet-Canada semifinal game, with Mike Noeth, a young American who aspired to be an NHL referee. We Russian fans believe that Noeth tried to impress his prospective employers (he never ended up getting the job) by letting the Canadians get away with murder, while creating a procession of Russians to the penalty box. Tiny little Igor Larionov was called for "dragging down" John Tonelli!

The problem with the Canada Cup is that the Canadians were able to use their proprietorship over the tournament to rig it in a way that guaranteed that they would win. That's why few if any Russians fans consider it a legitimate best on best tournament. It would be like having a Stanley Cup best of seven series between Boston and Tampa Bay, but having all of the games played in Boston, and all of the games refereed by employees of the Boston Bruins. Why did the Soviets participate? Simply put, they needed the money.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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I always get a chuckle when I hear a pro Soviet talk about International Law and choice.:laugh::laugh:

But joking aside the rise of Soviet hockey is an incredible accomplishment that you should be very proud of. However in this sport team play is paramount and it is something that takes time to perfect.

Having said all of that I was hoping we could actually have a thread about Russian hockey that didn't revert back to what was going on 40 years ago.:)

You are a well-known troll on this board, and the only purpose of this lame thread was to try to provoke Russian fans after your Canadian team lost yet another game to the Russians. Give us a little more credit than that! You are not subtle, and you are definitely not clever!.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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The problem with the Canada Cup is that the Canadians were able to use their proprietorship over the tournament to rig it in a way that guaranteed that they would win. That's why few if any Russians fans consider it a legitimate best on best tournament.

Cheating, conspiring and dishonesty is so ingrained in your culture that you believe everyone else in the world behaves as you would. I truly feel sorry for you.:shakehead
 

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Why is this thread turning into a pissing contest about the Canada Cup? Could people please stop lamenting about 80's refereeing here? Because it serves absolutely no purpose. This thread is about Russia's standing in 2011, period.

I think the statistics Theokritos supplied support my argument, so I'm not sure what else to say about that.

How so? My conclusions were different and you didn't bother to argue against it.
 

Hanji

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Why is this thread turning into a pissing contest about the Canada Cup? Could people please stop lamenting about 80's refereeing here? Because it serves absolutely no purpose. This thread is about Russia's standing in 2011, period.



How so? My conclusions were different and you didn't bother to argue against it.


I also don't understand the OP's statement. The number of Russians in the top 30 has been on the rise since the 1990s. From 2006-2010 its been at an all time high. 2011 was a down year and if this trend continues the OP has a point. But drawing any conclusions based on 1 anomaly of a year is rather ignorant.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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How so? My conclusions were different and you didn't bother to argue against it.

We will have to wait and see if the Russian NHLers can rebound next year, I hope so, but only time will tell.

As for the KHL I agree that Radulov would have a shot at breaking the NHL top 30, but I would not say it is a sure thing. With guys like Ellison, Linglet, Dallman, Vesce and Bochenski making the KHL top 30 I am still convinced that skill wise the KHL remains many orders of magnitude below the NHL. Rad's was 67th in NHL league scoring in 07/08 so he still had quite a way to go to make it to the top 30.
 

Peter25

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Cheating, conspiring and dishonesty is so ingrained in your culture that you believe everyone else in the world behaves as you would. I truly feel sorry for you.:shakehead

We are talking about hockey here. Leave your political BS out of this thread.

Soviet Union was the moral winner of the 1987 Canada Cup. Claiming anything else is dishonest.
 

Theokritos

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We will have to wait and see if the Russian NHLers can rebound next year

So we agree on this one. Too early to talk of an all time low.

As for the KHL I agree that Radulov would have a shot at breaking the NHL top 30, but I would not say it is a sure thing. With guys like Ellison, Linglet, Dallman, Vesce and Bochenski making the KHL top 30 I am still convinced that skill wise the KHL remains many orders of magnitude below the NHL. Rad's was 67th in NHL league scoring in 07/08 so he still had quite a way to go to make it to the top 30.

Again, no disagreement. Fact is that Radulov's scoring in the KHL has improved since 2008: 48 points in 08/09, 63 points in 09/10 and now 80 points in 10/11. Regardless what you think about the KHL: Radulov has really gone quite a way from 2008 to 2011.
 

Theokritos

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We are talking about hockey here. Leave your political BS out of this thread.
Soviet Union was the moral winner of the 1987 Canada Cup. Claiming anything else is dishonest.

The first sentence is spot on. The second sentence is as dispensable as the post you're replying to.
Whining about the 80's (whether rightly or wrongly) is contributing ZERO to the thread. The emotional involvement in the Canada vs USSR debate is always hurting the discussion as proven by so many threads, but in this thread it's not "only" damaging, but also completely out of place. So, Peter25, in all politeness, leave this needless BS out of this thread.
 

Zine

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Also take note that Radulov has gone from scrub player (2008) to a key figure on the national team........its a good indicator of how he compares to other elite NHL Russians.

Plus, he's already shown he can play a NA style game (nearly 60 points his first full NHL season).

I'd say he's currently on the level of Alexander Semin.....maybe not pure talent, but certainly production wise.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I always get a good laugh when I see people claiming that a country that lost a tournament was actually, in fact, the winner. Especially when it is clear that some of the posters have not actually seen the games (particularly the 1972 Summit Series). Anyway, as far the the topic Russian top end talent at forward is very impressive, and although there seemed to be a weak period after Ovechkin there have been quality young forwards in recent years and it looks like there are more to come. The defencemen are weak... and it does not appear to be changing. The goaltenders are quite good. As far as Russia's players being at an all time low, if we are including the USSR I think they are clearly a better set of players than the vast majority of Russian/Soviet hockey history.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Why is this thread turning into a pissing contest about the Canada Cup? Could people please stop lamenting about 80's refereeing here? Because it serves absolutely no purpose. This thread is about Russia's standing in 2011, period.



How so? My conclusions were different and you didn't bother to argue against it.

The original intent of this thread was to stir up a pissing contest. You don't have to read Mr. Kanandeisk's posts in much depth to conclude that he's a Russia hater, and the reason that the Canada Cup keeps being re-litigated is that his main argument is that Canada is on top of the mountain for winning the best on best tournaments. If you consider the anecdotal but well-deserved Canadian victory over Russia in the Vancouver Olympics and ignore the Russian shutout of the Canadians in the Torino Olympics, then the best on best comes down to the Canada Cups. While there is no arguing that Canada won 2 out of 3 Canada Cups, Mr. Kanadeisk knows that a lot of Russian fans believe they got screwed in the Canada Cup, particularly 1987. So he pumps the Canada Cup angle to see if he can get Russians stirred up. As you have pointed out, you can't label one bad year the sign of a decline.
 

Nakawick

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No. It was different rules for the two teams. Canada could do things the Soviets could not without being penalized. It was not about "calling a North American game" but holding the home team to a different standards than the Soviets.

The officiating of Don Koharski in 1987 is one of the biggest embarrassments of Canadian hockey history and this is the reason why Canada should stop referring the 1987 Canada Cup as a victory. It was not a victory for Canada. Soviet Union won that tournament.

Yeah sure, the Soviets won based on a cherry picked youtube video created by a Russian homer. The Soviets chose Koharski for the games. The Soveits lost because they lost 2 of 3 games. Don't you think that koharski would have made sure that game 2 ended before going to double overtime where one goal by the Soveits would have won the series? Take off your homer glasses.
 
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