Despite the IIHF rankings quality of Russia's men's players may be at an all time low
- Thread starter Mr Kanadensisk
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Peter25
Registered User
One thing to keep in mind is that in 1994-2006 a 4th place finish would have been considered a success for Russia. During these years Russia consistently was defeated in quarter finals stage. Russia's recent success (four consecutive medals with two of them being Gold medals) has risen up the expectations.
This is fine and Russia should be expected to be successful, but we do have to remember how things were before Bykov took over.
This is fine and Russia should be expected to be successful, but we do have to remember how things were before Bykov took over.
All I can say u must be severely delusional and prefer to pass personal misconceptions off for a fact, e.g ignoring the NHL and KHL statistics for the previous (not 2010-2011) seasons and most importanting, igonring Russia's achivements over the past four years. Well, if your memory refuses to serve u right or if there are some other reasons for your criminally selective use of statistics, I'll remind u that
1) as recently as 2008 and 2009 we won two consecutive golds at the WC (notably, one of them being in Quebec, right during the Canadian celebrations of the 100th anniversary of the sport), also claimed sliver and bronze. And it's worth reminding u that we did not win a single major title since 1994 thru 2006;
2) besides, don't u forget, that the team described by u as being at @an all-time low@ HAS BEATEN your "mighty, powerful and unbeatable"squad 5 times out of 6 since 2006 at all major hockey tournmanets - I guess we were much helped by the ever "declining and deteriorating" quality of our game
By the way, u should seriously ask yourself how is it that your beloved "all-mighty"Canada cannot beat Russia EVEN when it's so OBVIOUSLY AND UNDENIABLY BADLY coached as it was at these past worlds???
3) third, for two years in a row we won all stages of the Euro Tour tournament, once running a streak of 27?! consecutive wins (counting World Championship and Euro Tour and victories) - the second best result in hockey history.
4) Over the last years we have also seen the establishment of the KHL, VHL (roughly, the Russian analog of the AHL) and most critically - the MHL - the junior hockey league which have already paid dividend: cause for the first time over the past several years we won the Super Series played between Canadian and Russian youths, we also beat u at the WJC to claim the title (after returning home empty-handed for quite a while) and won a myriad of exhibition matches against various OHL and Amercian youth teams in the past season.
So, if u look OBJECTIVELY at the big picture rather then tamper with facts to fit your story, what u will see is that Russian hockey began to get out of the slump it found itself in after the collapse of the USSR, loss of national identity and mass migration of our best players overseas. Only an extremely BIASED and even more extremely subjective individual (btw, not surprisingly a canandian, since candians tend to jump out of their pants to downplay all our victories and achievements and to blow theirs out of all proportions) , would argue that we made great strides over the past 4-5 years, compared to the sad and pathetic picture we saw in the 1994-2006 seasons.
Having said that, it's undeniable that after the rise of 2007-2009, beginning from the fiasco in Vancouver and ending with the latest failure in Bratislava, our national team did lose in quality of its performance. However, on the one hand, that loss was PREDOMINANTLY due to the coaching staff who began resting on their laurels instead of continuing to work hard and generate new ideas, and on the other, this recent downfall in quality and results MUST BE SEEN IN PERSPECTIVE, and weighed up agaisnt our recent achievements that came after a lengthy futile and gold-less period, namely: the resounding bounce-back of 2007-2009, continuing success at the Euro Tours, consecutive victories over Canada - our major rival, victory at the WJC, and establishment of new Russian leagues.
Winding up, I think we are clearly going in the right direction and the most pressing issue now is to make the right choice of the head coach for the national team. Other than that I think our future looks bright, at least by far brighter than 4-5 years ago.
Once again I don't feel that WC results are in any way a reliable indicator of the quality and depth of a nations hockey players. You are obviously a huge fan of the WC and take great pride in your teams victories and for that I commend you. However I think you are blinded by your patriotism if you believe that WC results indicate superior talent or depth of any one particular country. Even best on best tournaments are somewhat unpredictable, not to mention extremely short and infrequent, but still they are a much better measure than the WC. I would even argue that the WJC were a better measure than the WC, at least before recent years when so many of the top players have been held back by their club teams. Furthermore take a look at how well WC winners did at subsequent best on best tournaments and you will see that there is no correlation between the two.
Hands down the best way to evaluate players is by their league statistics and that's all I was pointing out here.
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In a sense you are right that as a Russian fan of the WC and Euro Tour your future does look bright. Until Russia wins a Best on Best tournament I foresee them having a very high participation rate of their top players at the WC which obviously gives them a great chance at winning!!
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These are anecdotal statistics that reflect a number of intervening events that you don't bother to analyze or discuss. You can compare the number of Russians drafted by the NHL last year in comparison to 10 years ago, and argue that this represents a drastic decline in the production of talent. Instead, the real reason is that NHL general managers have concluded that its too risky to draft Russian players with the existence of comparable salaries at home in the KHL. These snapshot statistics of a single year, without identifying and explaining the basis for real trends, seem to be somewhat meaningless. I think the premise for this whole thread is skimpy!
Rob
Registered User
While they aren't #1 in the world they also aren't in decline. They could pull it together for gold in Sochi.
As many Russians have eluded too they have had problem working together as a team. My guess is that a coaching change will happen.
As many Russians have eluded too they have had problem working together as a team. My guess is that a coaching change will happen.
One reason why Mr. Kanandeisk and others don't understand what is going on with Russian hockey is that they dont seem to grasp that hockey doesnt exist in a vacuum. 1994 was the beginning of a long draught for Russia in international hockey, due in large part to the economic and social collapse that forced the dismantling of the entire Russian sport/hockey infrastructure. Do you remember how many RSL teams missed their payrolls for as long as 4 or 5 months? How many reading this post could go 4 or 5 months without any income. It is a miracle that Russian hockey survived at all.
In the meantime, all those who had been trained under the Soviet system sold their services to the NHL. If you look at NHL lineups between 1994-2000, you would find 75 to 85 Russian players. Meanwhile, the leagues back home were on the verge of dissolving. The premise that Russian hockey is on the decline is absolutely wrong! It is still in the rebuilding process, but it is building fast and coming back strong! Consider this - even though the IIHF website lists the number of indoor rinks in Canada at 2475, in comparison to 316 in Russia, Russia has beaten Canada 4 straight years in the WC. If there is a decline there, I don't see it!
This this this, exactly what i thought aswell.
As soon as they get this fixed up, this slump theyre currently in will be over. If anything, Russian hockey has been going major steps forward in the recent years. Coaching change will happen, Bykov maybe steps down from being the head coach but i think he might stay around doing other business. He did a great job, but they need some fresh air to keep the team motivated. A good coach (not Hitchcock) from Canada would be awesome.
Oh, please, Mr Kanadensisk, cut this BS. Who do you think you are kidding? What u are trying to pull here is palm off your personal, totally far-fetched opinion as a universal truth. Whereas it’s more than well established to measure the success of a country in a sport by its achievements at major tournaments and by the results of its showdowns with the sport’s major powerhouses! Do u seriously believe that your challenging this status quo makes it a tiny bit less viable or generally accepted than before??
On the other hand, not only do you come up with a highly controversial, far-fetched and outlandish idea of how to determine a country’s strength, but u messed it all up even here: ‘cause as the statistics, provided above by Theokritos (Post #25) and the facts pointed out by me, convincingly show u simply tampered with the evidence to make it fit your story and mislead the audience
. In other words, u don’t have a leg to stand on with your preposterous, reality-defying claims. Case closed! Period.Agree with everything but the last bit, I can't see a Russian team unite under a Canadian coach. They need fresh air, but the most important thing is to get someone who gets the team-spirit back to where it was in the earlier days of Bykov.
The team itself is good enough, you don't need a master tactician to get this team to the top, a fine motivator should be enough. Russia should have at least one or two coaches capable of doing just that.
Couldn't hurt to focus on developing elite defensemen though. Pretty much every really big talent is on offense, the defense is full of good to very good players, but they lack a real gamebreaker. There is enough skill on offense, time to get a new Fetisov.
Bull's eye, man! I only wish that our hockey bosses had a similar understanding
. But I'm afraid they don't: the last word from Russia is extremely discouraging - many want to keep Bykov
, because he is said to have no alternative
It's not definitive yet, but there's clearly a pro-Bykov lobby out there and considerting that Putin is Bykov's huge fan it's their fight to lose
Wasn't it just two years ago that Russian players won the every single major invidual award NHL has to offer expect for the Vezina and Norris?
In fact, the Soviets were more or less in a dead heat with Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier, etc., in the 80's. I am one of those who doesn't believe that Canada Cup was a legitimate best-on-best tournament, because all the games were played in Canada, in front of a house full of rabid Canadian fans, and, after the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the round robin of the 1984 Canada Cup, always refereed by friendly and patriotic Canadian or American referees.
However, even with all those advantages, all those great Canadian legends just barely beat the Soviets by a whisker. After winning the 1981 Canada Cup, against Gretzky, Lafleur, Bossy, Gainey, etc., and after beating Canada 6-3 in the 1984 round robin, the Soviets lost to Canada 3-2 more than 12 minutes into overtime in the 1984 Canada Cup. In 1987, when all the stars that you named played for Canada, the teams tied in round-robin, then had two consecutive 6-5 games with both teams alternating as the victors, with Canada winning the 3rd game, again 6-5, when Lemieux scored with 1:26 left in the Third. You would think that with that lineup Canada would blow the Soviets by 12-1 each game, but in fact, over a span of four games in the 87 Canada Cup, the total score was Canada 20 - Soviets 19. Those two teams were very evenly matched.
kmart
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2008
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there was a thread about this, "russians ballin at hockey"...or something, miss those times.
RusskiyHockey
Registered User
The one area where I think most of us can agree Russia has clearly declined in is the quality and quantity of defensemen. Players like Zubov, Gonchar, the two Markovs, Tverdovsky, Malakhov, Zhitnik, Yushkevich, Gusarov, Konstantinov, and not to mention Fetisov and Kasatonov are not developed anymore. Who is the best Russian defenseman today (not including Andrei Markov, who hasn't played a year)? Nikulin. He's alright and maybe could excel in the NHL, but he's nowhere near to being an elite player or a generational talent. Look at Canada's defense options and then look at Russia's. Relying on Tyutin, Grebeshkov, Atyushov, Korneev, etc. every year is saddening. They're not getting any younger and they're not getting much better either.
Not that it's ever been a strength, but I don't recall a time when goaltending depth was as good as it is now.
Bryzgalov
Nabokov (if he gets his **** together)
Varlamov
Bobrovsky
Khabibulin
Koshechkin
Barulin
Bryzgalov
Nabokov (if he gets his **** together)
Varlamov
Bobrovsky
Khabibulin
Koshechkin
Barulin
Well, if we are bringing up the past, what would happen if most of the Canadian players played together most of the year and the Soviets were assembled at the last second? It is no secret that the Canadian team gets better the longer they play together, as evidence in virtually every international tournament. 1987, 1984 and 1972 included.
Peter25
Registered User
When did the Soviet national team play together for the most of the year? It never did.
We could go on endlessly attempting to speculate on what might have happened if this or that were the reality instead of what was the existing reality. The only thing I can tell you is that the record shows that when the best of Canada went head-to-head with the best Russian players, the results were close to a draw. No domination either way.
Peter25
Registered User
True. Russian defensemen are not up par with the best Canadian, American or Czech defensemen right now.
Players like Atyushov and Kalinin should have no place in the national team. I don't understand why Bykov even chose them. In Ufa there are two better Russian defensemen than Kalinin (Koltsov and Proshkin) and in Metallurg Biryukov is better than Atyushov right now. I hate the slow tempo game that Atyushov plays. In a game against Finland Pihlström stole the puck from Atyushov and had a breakaway because Atyushov was simply not skating fast enough. This was just one example.
Current Russian defensemen are extremely slow to start counter attacks. Fetisov and Kasatonov did this faster than anyone, but the current crop of defensemen resort to hatching the puck behind their own goal and waiting forever to make the first pass. In powerplays this is extremely frustrating to watch. And when they finally make the first pass it is often poor quality. They also look flat-footed and let fast forwards go past them too easily.
Peter25
Registered User
Speaking of Kirill Koltsov it would have been nice to see him in this team. Koltsov is the best offensive Russian defenseman right now that Markov is injured. He could have made that weak powerplay a bit more potent and he rarely resorts handling the puck behind his own goal forever (which is Atyushov's trademark).
And how about going at it from the opposite end: what would've happened if the overwhelming majority of our matches had been played in Russia, in front of 100% partisan pro-Russian crowds, on large-size rinks, and most importantly if they had been reffed by koharskis of Russian origin (that's by anti-koharskis), and on top of that, if anytime we, Russians, could not outplay or ourperform some Canadian player we would have physically destroyed him? What would the status quo be in this case?
So, please, don't even start this favourite Canadian tune: every time u lose to us - it's for a myriad of "objective"reasons
, but whenever u beat us it is only for one and only - because u are "better" It is simply low class and thank God not all Canadians are so bigoted, biased and unrealistic: some of u have class too!
Peter25
Registered User
Well, yes. The Soviet Union was the real winner of the 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups. I don't see how anyone can call that result a "victory" for Canada when it was a direct result of referee bias.And how about going at it from the opposite end: what would've happened if the overwhelming majority of our matches had been played in Russia, in front of 100% partisan pro-Russian crowds, on large-size rinks, and most importantly if they had been reffed by koharskis of Russian origin (that's by anti-koharskis), and on top of that, if anytime we, Russians, could not outplay or ourperform some Canadian player we would have physically destroyed him? What would the status quo be in this case?
So, please, don't even start this favourite Canadian tune: every time u lose to us - it's for a myriad of "objective"reasons
The defense was the weakness throughout the WC tournament, in my opinion. They had great difficulty clearing the puck out of the Russian zone, and with opposing forwards cycling around, and the puck pinballing all over the place, eventually the puck ends up in your net.
For this, I think Bykov and Zakharkin are responsible. They are responsible for organizing a breakout play that the defensemen can execute. It has to be coordinated with the forwards, and the defensemen have to be able to get rid of the puck right away, without having to take the time to stop or look around. The Russians did not have an effective breakout play, and it cost them in this tournament.
Russia used the stretch pass a lot, passing from inside their own zone to the opposite blue line. That play was effective in 2008, but the other teams are ready for it now, and stack up along the blue line. They just kept trying it, unfortunately, which I interpret to mean that Bykov and Zakharkin failed to change tactics, even though they weren't working.
I though reffing was ok in 1984. 1987 was set up for Canada to win though. I think most people apart from Canadians would admit to this.
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