Dermott Vs Carlo

Dermott Vs Carlo

  • Dermott

  • Carlo


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sparxx87

Don Quixote
Jan 5, 2010
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4,705
Toronto
talk out of my ass? (again real mature;))

but YES one would expect at least one of those D's to become a top pairing

two 1st round: VAAKANAINEN, Zboril

and

two 2nd round: Arnesson, Lindgren
Hope. You hope one of them will become a top pairing d. Realistically, far more prospects fail to reach their potential than actually achieve it. I always find it tough to project anyone who wasn’t a top pick and hasn’t played a game as a future top pair d. That’s just me.

... and I really don’t even mind that projection. I like Zboril but admittedly, know little of Vaaka____. They may very well be, but the odds aren’t great that the B’s draft 3 top pairing d men in 3 years.

I just wanted you to elaborate in your comparison of Dermott with Grzelcyk, I find it rather peculiar.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
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Pretty easy for me; since last season I've always thought Carlo was overrated. Wasn't good in a top-pairing comp last season, and is not that good in a weak 2nd pairing role this season.

From that 2nd round alone I'd take Dermott, Dunn, and Andersson over him.

On the bright side though Bruins fans, McAvoy is a treasure and at the ripe age of 20 is already looking like one of the best #2 defenseman in hockey. Future's bright.
 

BostonBruins11

Registered User
Dec 4, 2010
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Grzelcyk was called up this year Due to injury (i don't know if this is the case for Dermott but i'm assuming it is), and since being called up they haven't sent him down because he's playing too good.

He's an excellent puck retriever with soft hands and above average offensive upsize (30-40pts range i would guess).
He's a quicker/more agile version of Torey Krug with softer hands, and honestly higher IQ.
he hasn't shown any weakness in his defensive game, but it's definitely not his area of strength.
he also doesn't play a heavy game (this is where i'm guessing Dermott and Grzelcyk are different)

he looks very promising, but i have seen wayyyy to many one season wonders to get my hopes up this early. a Prospects usually takes 2-3 season to convince me
he's also being sheltered on the 3rd pairing.
 

bearcountry17

Registered User
Jun 4, 2012
3,241
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South Shore, MA
Pretty easy for me; since last season I've always thought Carlo was overrated. Wasn't good in a top-pairing comp last season, and is not that good in a weak 2nd pairing role this season.

From that 2nd round alone I'd take Dermott, Dunn, and Andersson over him.

On the bright side though Bruins fans, McAvoy is a treasure and at the ripe age of 20 is already looking like one of the best #2 defenseman in hockey. Future's bright.

Carlo wasn’t good last year? News to me.
 

BostonBruins11

Registered User
Dec 4, 2010
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Hope. You hope one of them will become a top pairing d. Realistically, far more prospects fail to reach their potential than actually achieve it. I always find it tough to project anyone who wasn’t a top pick and hasn’t played a game as a future top pair d. That’s just me.

... and I really don’t even mind that projection. I like Zboril but admittedly, know little of Vaaka____. They may very well be, but the odds aren’t great that the B’s draft 3 top pairing d men in 3 years.

I just wanted you to elaborate in your comparison of Dermott with Grzelcyk, I find it rather peculiar.


Arnesson and VAAKANAINEN are Defensive D's with excellent skating/puck retrieval/PK skills with a great outlet pass.
Weakness: Offense, which is probably why they're not drawing much attention

I'm assuming they're looking for players to pair with: McAvoy, Krug, Grzelcyk
 

araisarena

Registered User
Jun 4, 2008
805
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Toronto/Ann Arbor
Good poll.

Dermott you have a high offensive IQ shifty puck moving defenseman that is already comfortable being the lead man to exit puck out of zone and commence breakout. His responsibilities continue to increase and he has quality top 4 (fringe top pairing) potential. He looks like a carbon copy of Jake Gardiner and I'm impressed at how he has made his skating an asset at this level. His hands are pretty good too.

Carlo you have a high defensive IQ big smooth skating defenseman that is comfortable making the first pass, has long range and looks to prevent zone entries well, is already comfortable playing big minutes against solid competition and while has had his ruts, is doing so while playing tough minutes on one of the league's best teams.

I think who you pick is based on team need. What Dermott will provide you is valuable if you need a transition puck mover, who can make plays in neutral zone with speed, and there is value in a 6'5 defenseman who can skate that eventually will shut down the elite forwards of the game. He'll eventually become an elite shot suppressor, who will play PK minutes and if he continues to show that he can make good smart passes out of his zone to transition the offense, won't need to be a 40+ point defenseman to be valuable or first pairing.

I'd pick Carlo because the Leafs need a big right handed defenseman that can keep up with the play and shot suppress because we don't have that. Dermott theoretically has a higher ceiling probably because he has shown in limited minutes to be sound defensively, is aggressive and his offense is higher, but for the Leafs and our window to win a Stanley Cup I wouldn't mind having a Rielly - Carlo pairing to ease the tough minutes that Rielly plays.
 
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Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
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Carlo wasn’t good last year? News to me.

I mean, relative to expectations for a 20 year old playing top-pairing comp: sure he was fine. In comparison to other top-pairing guys, he was under average. Personally I'd be looking at that as a guy who "played over his head", but put down a solid foundation as a potential top-4 guy in his career.

Problem is his stats this year look pretty identical to last year, and he's taken on much (much) easier minutes. This to me is a concern, but I know you guys are very high on him and there's reason to believe he can improve in his current role. If not, he looks like he'll be a great bottom-pairing defenseman in the Brayden McNabb type mold.

All of this is with the 10~ Bruins games I watch a season, plus trying to decipher his underlying stats. So take it with whatever grain of salt you'd like.
 

TOGuy14

Registered User
Dec 30, 2010
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Toronto
Seems like a lot of people have never watched Dermott since there is a lot of talk around him being a smaller offensive D.

Dude is a gym rat and absolute tank. He has a high hockey IQ so doesn't take himself out of position often, but has no problem lining up a big hit. He basically picked up Patrick Sharp and could have suplexed him if he wanted to:



Dermott is basically Jake Gardiner without the mental mistakes and some nastiness to his game
 
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BostonBruins11

Registered User
Dec 4, 2010
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I mean, relative to expectations for a 20 year old playing top-pairing comp: sure he was fine. In comparison to other top-pairing guys, he was under average. Personally I'd be looking at that as a guy who "played over his head", but put down a solid foundation as a potential top-4 guy in his career.

Problem is his stats this year look pretty identical to last year, and he's taken on much (much) easier minutes. This to me is a concern, but I know you guys are very high on him and there's reason to believe he can improve in his current role. If not, he looks like he'll be a great bottom-pairing defenseman in the Brayden McNabb type mold.

All of this is with the 10~ Bruins games I watch a season, plus trying to decipher his underlying stats. So take it with whatever grain of salt you'd like.

He's Already a top 4 on the best defensive team in the league.. Carlo's TOI dropped by about 1 minute because he's on the 2nd pair.
He's plays on the #1 PK unit with Chara. (2nd best PK in the league)
He's also used to protect the lead in the last minute in the game with Chara.
 

DrJustice

Registered User
Dec 1, 2014
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This would have been Carlo by a mile last year, but Dermott has been the better player this year (since the call up at least)


8pts in 18 games and a +7 playing with Carrick/Holl/Polak. leafs have lost about 4 of those games.

Hard to say a guy has had a better year when he's played 18 games compared to 57.

I can agree that Dermott has a higher offensive upside than Carlo, and I can understand that if based on upside you take him going forward but a good 18 games shouldn't automatically mean he's had a better season as a whole. Dermott's value is based on his upside going forward, Carlo what he has shown already.

Carlo is a 2nd year pro with 139 games under his belt, and has logged a lot of important minutes for one of the best defensive teams in hockey. That in of itself has a lot of value. He had a rough start to the year but in my opinion has turned it around after becoming more comfortable playing with Krug on the second pair. He went form being baby sat by Chara on the top pair to having to cover for an offensive deference, not an easy transition but it's finally come around.

So people looking at his advanced stats are just going to think he's extremely mediocre, but I think he can turn into a Tanev type of player if he fulfills his potential. Hopefully 20 points and elite defensive play when he's in his prime.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
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He's Already a top 4 on the best defensive team in the league.. Carlo's TOI dropped by about 1 minute because he's on the 2nd pair.
He's plays on the #1 PK unit with Chara. (2nd best PK in the league)
He's also used to protect the lead in the last minute in the game with Chara.

He does play top 4 minutes in both toi, and QoC (but his QoC is much weaker than last season, and a weak 2nd pairing role).

A bad player like Polak could be on a good top penalty killing unit.. oh wait he is.

You're basically talking about his context and the trust his coach has in him. It doesn't mean he's actually good in those minutes though, which is why I've made these statements.
 

BostonBruins11

Registered User
Dec 4, 2010
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He does play top 4 minutes in both toi, and QoC (but his QoC is much weaker than last season, and a weak 2nd pairing role).

A bad player like Polak could be on a good top penalty killing unit.. oh wait he is.

You're basically talking about his context and the trust his coach has in him. It doesn't mean he's actually good in those minutes though, which is why I've made these statements.



weak?
Your entitled to your opinion, but you are dead wrong about Carlo
Carlo is a legit 2nd pairing Defensmen with a 1st pairing upside.
There's a reason Colorado was interested in trading Duchene for him but the bruins denied (rumors are they countered with Zboril but the Avs only wanted Carlo).
Shutting down Gaudreau last night is a classic example why Bruins fan are high on him (so are most Hockey analytics).

6"5 Defensmen, High IQ, Poise, Excellent skating with a Defense first mentality is extremely rare now-a-days.

If Carlo was playing for the Leaf's he'd be in the top 4 guaranteed, actually he would be on your top pairing playing with Rielly
comparing Polak to Carlo ... you must be kidding...
 
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rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
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carlo. he's a top-4 dman already. dermott is developing into one and will become one next season. also carlo is a rhd
 
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Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,518
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London, ON
weak?
Your entitled to your opinion, but you are dead wrong about Carlo
Carlo is a legit 2nd pairing Defensmen with a 1st pairing upside.
There's a reason Colorado was interested in trading Duchene for him but the bruins denied (rumors are they countered with Zboril but the Avs only wanted Carlo).
Shutting down Gaudreau last night is a classic example why Bruins fan are high on him (so are most Hockey analytics).

6"5 Defensmen, High IQ, Poise, Excellent skating with a Defense first mentality is extremely rare now-a-days.

If Carlo was playing for the Leaf's he'd be in the top 4 guaranteed, actually he would be on your top pairing playing with Rielly
comparing Polak to Carlo ... you must be kidding...

Lol. Ok misconstrue everything.
 

Pay Carl

punished “venom” krejci
Jun 23, 2011
13,094
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Pretty easy for me; since last season I've always thought Carlo was overrated. Wasn't good in a top-pairing comp last season, and is not that good in a weak 2nd pairing role this season.

You're comparing two rookies, one 20 year old on a top pairing on his rookie year, to a guy playing on the bottom pairing

Crazy difference there
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,518
15,389
London, ON
You're comparing two rookies, one 20 year old on a top pairing on his rookie year, to a guy playing on the bottom pairing

Crazy difference there

Sure. One struggling even on the 2nd pairing this year, and one that's clearly too good for the third while carrying around the corpse of Roman Polak.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,518
15,389
London, ON
riiiiight.......

ZSR - 56.29 (higher = more offensive zone starts)
TOIQoC - 28.73 (weak 2nd pairing comp)
PDO - 100.76

rel.CF% - (-3.02)
rel.xGF% - (+0.05)
rel.GF% - (-6.11)

Looks like a guy who's struggling/barely keeping his head afloat to me.

--------------------

Btw Dermott:

ZSR - 52.63 (higher = more offensive zone starts)
TOIQoC - 28.36 (moderate 3rd pairing comp)
PDO - 104.82

rel.CF% - (+4.34)
rel.xGF% - (+2.21)
rel.GF% - (+12.98)

Looks like a guy who can definitely play harder comp (imagine what this would look like not carrying around Polak's corpse).
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
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ZSR - 56.29 (higher = more offensive zone starts)
TOIQoC - 28.73 (weak 2nd pairing comp)
PDO - 100.76

rel.CF% - (-3.02)
rel.xGF% - (+0.05)
rel.GF% - (-6.11)

Looks like a guy who's struggling/barely keeping his head afloat to me.

--------------------

Btw Dermott:

ZSR - 52.63 (higher = more offensive zone starts)
TOIQoC - 28.36 (moderate 3rd pairing comp)
PDO - 104.82

rel.CF% - (+4.34)
rel.xGF% - (+2.21)
rel.GF% - (+12.98)

Looks like a guy who can definitely play harder comp (imagine what this would look like not carrying around Polak's corpse).

Before Rielly came back from injury Dermott was playing top 4, he was our best D during those games at both ends. He’s more than ready for a bigger role.
 

lomiller1

Registered User
Jan 13, 2015
6,409
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He's Already a top 4
Barely. Also, his min have been dropping over and this drop corresponds to the Bruins playing better hockey.
It would be far from the first time a player who did not being in the top 4 received top 4 min. Cf. Dan Girardi. He received top 4 min for years in spite of not belonging there.

carlobr96


carlobr96
 

BadBruins

Registered User
Aug 10, 2005
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I won't even pretend I watch Leaf games and scout Travis Dermott specifically. Hard to take anyone serious claiming Carlo isn't a top-4 D though. I don't even believe his overall upside is anything more than a quality #3 D that can play a shutdown role. He's almost that guy right now. He just needs to fill out physically and up the consistency. Still rail thin and is adapting to being the defensive anchor with a risk taker like Torey Krug (as opposed to Chara).

I know some players hit the ground running and fizzle out, but I don't know of too many defenseman who break into the league at the age of 19, average 20+ minutes a game over the course of the first 140 in a top-4 capacity on a great defensive team and turn into solid Brayden McNabb type players. It's probably happened before. What's more probable is he's a long time top-4 D.
 

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