Confirmed with Link: Derek Grant obtained from Anaheim for Criscuolo + 4th

[JojoTheWhale]

Hagg is serviceable, he's an inexpensive #6/#7.
Just look at some of the veteran scrubs who actually garnered draft picks at the TDL.

When you get to the bottom of NHL rosters, well, . . .

I edited my post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say. You were quick on that one!

I know you just don’t think he has it, which is completely fine. Evaluative differences are just that. What confuses me is the way some of these evaluations are explained. It feels different to me somehow. I’m not comfortable even attempting to explain why someone else thinks the way they do, but it has a different texture to the presentation. I find it weird.

 

[Tripod]

lol...so you can know things definitively in a few shifts.....yet were so wrong about NAK.

Hmmmm.....

 

[Striiker]

@JojoTheWhale is too polite to call it a "blatant contradiction".

If Hakstol loved Vorobyev the same way he loved Hagg, we'd be hearing how he still has a chance and it's too early to judge (just like it's too early to judge Hak and Hagg). But since he hardly used him then it must mean that Hak was right and did the right thing (as always).

 

[deadhead]

I edited my post to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say. You were quick on that one!

I know you just don’t think he has it, which is completely fine. Evaluative differences are just that. What confuses me is the way some of these evaluations are explained. It feels different to me somehow. I’m not comfortable even attempting to explain why someone else thinks the way they do, but it has a different texture to the presentation. I find it weird.

We've known what Hagg is for a while, and he fills his role. As they got deeper, his minutes have been reduced the last two seasons. His only hope is to make those incremental improvements that keep the wolves from the door.
As soon as a better player comes along, he's gone like all bottom feeders (they obviously don't think Friedman is that player, yet). If Morin hadn't gotten hurt, it was 50/50 that he would have remained for this season (both players are offensively limited, big LHDs).

The problem for Vorobyev is he'll be 24 next year, and better players are already arriving, Bunnaman at 21 outplayed him this season. If Patrick returns and Frost is ready next year, he becomes the #6 center, #7 if they were to resign Grant. Vorobyev has to make a big jump to stay on this island.

We saw this with Cousins, who wasn't bad, but another tweener who couldn't solidfy a role that justified a longer term commitment.

 

[eramosat]

I think hexy wanted cheaply attained , cheaply signed, players while young talent was ready to slowly take over. Braun is not cheap nor was he cheaply attained. same for niskanen, same for hayes. Adding talent is always going to make your team better. I understand what Hextall was trying to do. He wanted to wait longer to be competitive. And had he waited longer I believe he would have had a system that would have allowed for not only long sustained success, but would have the depth to make a major move here or there if it needed.

Right now the Flyers are hot. This is the best team we have seen in quite some time. And as much as I am all on board with this team, there is apart of me that realizes that the sum is greater than its parts. I would not be surprised if next year this team struggled to meet expectations. Look at Calgary last year. 1st seed in the West to having a negative goal differential this year.

It's easy at this very moment to stand at the mountain top and judge hexy. But without Hexy Fletcher would never be in the position he currently is in. Fletcher walked into the most advantageous situation by a GM that I can recall. He had a competitive squad, tons of cap space, tons of draft picks, and the best nhl prospect pool, to go along with numerous young talented players on the nhl roster.

Spending money, trading picks and signing guys to win now is the easy part. The hard part is sustaining that success over the long haul

very very thoughtful post, and very fair to Hexy. it's right to say Fletch had a pretty nice starting position, without which he could not have attempted his calculated gambles on 4 vets that have thus far has paid all the dividends he could have hoped for, and probably more. Hayes, Braun Niskanen and the big one Vigneault.

 

[Appleyard]

We saw this with Cousins, who wasn't bad, but another tweener who couldn't solidfy a role that justified a longer term commitment.

Cousins who is now one of the better bottom sixers in the NHL... and should very likely have been kept considering the last 3 years his $1m contracts have been an absolute steal.

 

[deadhead]

Cousins who is now one of the better bottom sixers in the NHL... and should very likely have been kept considering the last 3 years his $1m contracts have been an absolute steal.

I wouldn't go that far.

Cousins last three seasons, ES scoring, 18, 24 and 19 in 63g, that's good 4th line scoring.
1.32, 1.12, 1.27, 1.54 pp/60 last four seasons.

On Vegas, he's played 12:34 at ES (third line minutes) and PP2 minutes
In Montreal, he played 11:47 (1 minute more than Thompson) and PP2 minutes

He had good advanced metrics with Montreal, but average rel - CFrel +0.20, xGFrel +0.80, there is something in the Habs system that inflates metrics (on a team with average talent).

He's pretty much the same 3/4 tweener he was here, a solid player who's a bad fit, not really big and fast enough for a 4C role, not really skilled enough for a 3C role. Smart, reliable and limited. Which is why I think he's Vorobyev's upside (different styles, same issue of fit).

Flyers should have kept Cousins and buried Lehtera, but he wasn't going to move the needle.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

there is something in the Habs system that inflates metrics (on a team with average talent).

A world-class Head Coach is a good place to start looking.

In all seriousness, I don't agree with your Vorobyev conclusions or even the reasoning, but I appreciate that it's specific to him as a player and fleshed out. That can sadly often be in short supply.

 

[deadhead]

A world-class Head Coach is a good place to start looking.

In all seriousness, I don't agree with your Vorobyev conclusions or even the reasoning, but I appreciate that it's specific to him as a player and fleshed out. That can sadly often be in short supply.

I appreciate that, I think we'll find out in a couple years when he's traded for a draft pick and plays somewhere else.
I don't see him beating out Bunnaman at 4C, or Frost/Patrick at 3C.
I think Bunnaman is what AV wants at 4C, the kid just needs more polish and experience.

 

[NYCFlyer]

I wouldn't go that far.

Cousins last three seasons, ES scoring, 18, 24 and 19 in 63g, that's good 4th line scoring.
1.32, 1.12, 1.27, 1.54 pp/60 last four seasons.

On Vegas, he's played 12:34 at ES (third line minutes) and PP2 minutes
In Montreal, he played 11:47 (1 minute more than Thompson) and PP2 minutes

He had good advanced metrics with Montreal, but average rel - CFrel +0.20, xGFrel +0.80, there is something in the Habs system that inflates metrics (on a team with average talent).

He's pretty much the same 3/4 tweener he was here, a solid player who's a bad fit, not really big and fast enough for a 4C role, not really skilled enough for a 3C role. Smart, reliable and limited. Which is why I think he's Vorobyev's upside (different styles, same issue of fit).

Flyers should have kept Cousins and buried Lehtera, but he wasn't going to move the needle.

Really depends what you want from your 3c and 4c. I like my 4c to be great on the pk, faceoffs, and be able to be an excellent defensive player capable of holding their own against other teams top two lines. Think Joel Otto for those who remember. I want my 3c to be way more dangerous offensively who can take advantage of the fact that the other teams best defenders are focused somewhere else. Cousins is ok but doesn't fit that. Could be serviceable as a winger I guess.

 

[deadhead]

Really depends what you want from your 3c and 4c. I like my 4c to be great on the pk, faceoffs, and be able to be an excellent defensive player capable of holding their own against other teams top two lines. Think Joel Otto for those who remember. I want my 3c to be way more dangerous offensively who can take advantage of the fact that the other teams best defenders are focused somewhere else. Cousins is ok but doesn't fit that. Could be serviceable as a winger I guess.

That's why fit is different than "talent."
Cousins is a solid player, but hard to fit in a lot of schemes.

We've seen this with Hayes and JVR to a certain extent, but they're talented enough that you juggle until you find a combination that works.

On the other hand Couts works with everyone and in every role, and I think once Farabee fills out, he'll work on any line. Players like that have extra value because they make it easier to put together 4 good lines.

 

[Flyers Time]

Derek Grant is ELITE

 

[DancingPanther]

I pray for the day Grant gets put on the fourth line where he belongs. And Thompson gets locked in the dungeon, where he belongs

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Keep Grant in the lineup. He has been good since the first game. Thompson does nothing for me. Which was my thinking when these deals happened

 

[NYCFlyer]

Keep Grant in the lineup. He has been good since the first game. Thompson does nothing for me. Which was my thinking when these deals happened

Considering the strong likelihood that we make the playoffs, I think of Thompson as insurance. But for it to be useful insurance we have to play him a bit now to get him integrated. So I have no problem playing him now hoping for Frost or Patrick in the 3c, Grant the 4c and Thompson the PB when the degree of difficulty ramps up next month.

 

[DancingPanther]

Keep Grant in the lineup. He has been good since the first game. Thompson does nothing for me. Which was my thinking when these deals happened

The only thing he has been good at is the PK. He has not been good otherwise. He still holds potential value as a 4C PK and faceoff specialist

 

[Striiker]

The only thing he has been good at is the PK. He has not been good otherwise. He still holds potential value as a 4C PK and faceoff specialist

I can see where this road is leading and I just want to wish you good luck.

 

[Appleyard]

I wouldn't go that far.

Cousins last three seasons, ES scoring, 18, 24 and 19 in 63g, that's good 4th line scoring.
1.32, 1.12, 1.27, 1.54 pp/60 last four seasons.

On Vegas, he's played 12:34 at ES (third line minutes) and PP2 minutes
In Montreal, he played 11:47 (1 minute more than Thompson) and PP2 minutes

He had good advanced metrics with Montreal, but average rel - CFrel +0.20, xGFrel +0.80, there is something in the Habs system that inflates metrics (on a team with average talent).

He's pretty much the same 3/4 tweener he was here, a solid player who's a bad fit, not really big and fast enough for a 4C role, not really skilled enough for a 3C role. Smart, reliable and limited. Which is why I think he's Vorobyev's upside (different styles, same issue of fit).

Flyers should have kept Cousins and buried Lehtera, but he wasn't going to move the needle.

Those P/60 are:

1.32: low end 3rd line
1.12: above average 4th line
1.27: low end 3rd line
1.54: high end 3rd line

Over the whole time it equals out to a decent 3rd line scorer... a bit below average... in 4th line minutes.

His underlying stats have been good with Philly, Arizona, Montreal... and now with Vegas.


And it was not just Lehtera:

Filppula, Weise, Lehtera, Read, Leier played 247 games between them the next year... he is/was better than all of them.

We talk about "not moving the needle". But look what a good bottom six as done now vs the start of the year! Who would have thought NAK>Stewart has certainly resulted in extra standing points!

 

[Appleyard]

Really depends what you want from your 3c and 4c. I like my 4c to be great on the pk, faceoffs, and be able to be an excellent defensive player capable of holding their own against other teams top two lines. Think Joel Otto for those who remember. I want my 3c to be way more dangerous offensively who can take advantage of the fact that the other teams best defenders are focused somewhere else. Cousins is ok but doesn't fit that. Could be serviceable as a winger I guess.

Incremental gains matter though.

We have seen this with the bottom six since Christmas...

they rolled out 3 of: Filpula, Lehtera, Weise, Read, Leier EVERY game that next year.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Incremental gains matter though.

We have seen this with the bottom six since Christmas...

they rolled out 3 of: Filpula, Lehtera, Weise, Read, Leier EVERY game that next year.

The worst part is Hakstol shoehorned his fourth liners into his PK forward rotations regardless if they were particularly good at it or not.

AV fortunately so far has gotten away from that sans Thompson as that was a big criticism of his time in New York too.