Jason MacIsaac
Registered User
His skating was ugly as **** but I thought he got from point A to point B decently. He was great in front of the net also.Leafaholix said:Reach means squat when you can't skate.
Defensive Prospect depth
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It might be more realistic, but he has top 4 upside. The realism for ALL prospects is that they most likely won't reach their upside. But that's not what I'm arguing here, I'm arguing upside... which is top 4 for Nickerson.Leafaholix said:
What's Kyle McLaren then? It's very hard to compare Nickerson to anyone in the NHL right now, because there aren't a ton on defense with his size, skating, meanstreak, and willingness to get into the play offensively.Leafaholix said:
Wade Belak/Eric Cairns are only similar in terms of size and toughness. Once again, they are pretty damn far off once you consider Nickerson's skating and ability to join the rush. Skating is a HUGE lacking point in both Belak's and Cairns' games. They lack the mobility that Nickerson has, that's why they play the role they play. So to compare him to them based on only scouting reports, and being so adamant with your comparisons, only makes you look foolish to those that HAVE seen him play.Leafaholix said:
You just don't get it. Those players play those roles because they lack the skills required to play top 4 minutes. Nickerson has the skills required to play top 4 minutes, unlike those completely misinformed comparisons.Leafaholix said:
Hnidy - Not at all mobile and lacks the skating and overall ability to be top 4. Horrible comparison.
Henry - Once again, lacks the skating and quickness/speed of Nickerson. Thus he is unable to keep up with speedy, skilled guys, and can't handle top 4 minutes. Horrible comparison.
Simpson - Once again, lacks the skating and overall speed/quickness to keep up with fast forwards, thus he is unable to occupy a top 4 role. Horrible comparison.
Exelby - Have not seen him play, so I can't really comment. See, I don't sit here and pretend to know what I'm talking about with players that I haven't seen play.
Davison - Another one that lacks the skaing/quickness. Horrible comparison.
Do you see how important skating is for a defenseman? Do you see the inaccuracies with your comparisons when not factoring in Nickerson's skating ability? That is a HUGE part of a defenseman's game and cannot be overlooked.
One thing I notice with a lot of posters on HF, is that sometimes they get carried away with comparisons when they haven't seen a player play, and can completely miss the point of a comparison. I can be guilty of this sometimes as well, but I am not stubborn enough to continue arguing and not realize when I'm wrong. The point in comparing a player is comparing style of play and skillsets. Not what role you think they'll play because of one or two dimensions of their games that they might share with another player. That can lead you to some pretty bad comparisons, which very much has in this case.
Think more along the lines of Kyle McLaren when comparing Nickerson to any current NHLer. He plays a very similar style (as close as I can think of right now, but no comparison is ever perfect because each player is different), and McLaren is a top 4, is he not?
They're not hidden if you'd actually seen him play.Leafaholix said:
Once again, why are you so inflexible in your opinion when you haven't even seen him play? That is not only foolish, but just plain ignorant.
NJ's defensive prospects are just terrible. I have more faith in our graduated guys (Martin and Hale... #1 defense pairing).
Note to Lou... use your next 1st rounder on a defenseman.
Note to Lou... use your next 1st rounder on a defenseman.
Playing on a bad team's top pairing does not make you a number one, or even number two defenseman. I'm sure he played decent enough, and surprised the hell out of many Blackhawk fans, but thinking he's gonna be a top pairing guy for you when your team is anything but a bottom feeder is a huge pipe dream.theBob said:
A #1 guy is a guy who can handle top pairing minutes, play in all situations, and play an all-around game, IMO. Adrian Aucoin isn't anywhere near the level of Lidstrom, Niedermayer, or Pronger... but he is arguably a #1 defenseman under the previously mentioned criteria, and can be such on a lot of teams. However, while Barker and Babchuk have #1 upside (the only two that do, IMO), Barker is probably the most likely to reach it. Babchuk is still more of a mystery.theBob said:
I'm as intrigued by Byfuglien as they next guy, but that 270 pounds is not muscle. He's got a long, long way to go before he ever reaches the NHL, if ever.theBob said:
The Capitals are in pretty good shape after taking four defensemen on the first day of the 2004 draft.
Steve Eminger
Shaone Morrisonn
Mike Green
Jeff Schultz
Nolan Yonkman
Jakub Cutta
Sami Lepisto
Oscar Hedman
Clayton Barthel
Eminger just looks solid, and is having a strong year in the AHL. The same can be said of Morrisonn. Green is having a better year than perhaps anyone expected for Saskatoon, and if observers knew then what they know now, he wouldn't have fallen to #29 overall in June '04.
Schultz and Yonkman have size, the former a decent offensive game and the latter a physical game, but their very size makes them projects. Yonkman needs to put together a season --heck, half a season-- healthy, and if he can manage that he should have an NHL career. Schultz is probably a good four years off, and is no sure thing either. Cutta is the sort of steady two-way player, smooth skating but physical, who could make it in the NHL, coming in under the radar. His consistency is said to be improving in the AHL and the Caps have been grooming him patiently since 2000.
Lepisto and Hedman are a long ways off, but Lepisto is already generating some noise based on his play for Jokerit. Hedman looks like he may not make it, though it wasn't a very costly gamble given that he was taken with a fifth rounder.
Not a bad group, and deep, though there is no stud there with the capability of shouldering #1 duties. Perhaps the Caps will be picking in the range (say, #3) of a Jack Johnson in the 2005 draft to address that.
For now, it's a decent group, but does not challenge the Nashvilles or the Chicagos.
Steve Eminger
Shaone Morrisonn
Mike Green
Jeff Schultz
Nolan Yonkman
Jakub Cutta
Sami Lepisto
Oscar Hedman
Clayton Barthel
Eminger just looks solid, and is having a strong year in the AHL. The same can be said of Morrisonn. Green is having a better year than perhaps anyone expected for Saskatoon, and if observers knew then what they know now, he wouldn't have fallen to #29 overall in June '04.
Schultz and Yonkman have size, the former a decent offensive game and the latter a physical game, but their very size makes them projects. Yonkman needs to put together a season --heck, half a season-- healthy, and if he can manage that he should have an NHL career. Schultz is probably a good four years off, and is no sure thing either. Cutta is the sort of steady two-way player, smooth skating but physical, who could make it in the NHL, coming in under the radar. His consistency is said to be improving in the AHL and the Caps have been grooming him patiently since 2000.
Lepisto and Hedman are a long ways off, but Lepisto is already generating some noise based on his play for Jokerit. Hedman looks like he may not make it, though it wasn't a very costly gamble given that he was taken with a fifth rounder.
Not a bad group, and deep, though there is no stud there with the capability of shouldering #1 duties. Perhaps the Caps will be picking in the range (say, #3) of a Jack Johnson in the 2005 draft to address that.
For now, it's a decent group, but does not challenge the Nashvilles or the Chicagos.
Patty Ice
Straight to the Banc
Drake1588 said:
Lepisto might have actually had a job this year if there was a season and he reported to trainig camp. He was prolly one of the more NHL ready players available in the draft (partly because he's a year older than most in the draft). One thing I'm sure of, he's not a long ways off.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
DownFromNJ said:
Hale Martin and White not to mention Neidermeyer...you guys are set for a few years.
To be sure, as a Washington fan I'm certainly hopeful that is the case, but am trying to maintain a healthy skepticism until the player actually does make it. Historically teams just don't send that many players from a single draft to the NHL, and yet the Caps have an awful lot of strong candidates from the '04 crop. Ovechkin and Green appear to be the givens, but there are a good number of others who seem to be strong candidates as well. Lepisto is right up there, though I'm skeptical he would have earned more than a cup of coffee and the standard ten games had the season started on time.Hero of Tragedy said:
As mentioned, Phoenix is definitely another team with a good base. There is no good reason for Keith Ballard to have had his rights traded, twice, but Phoenix gains regardless. Matt Jones will be a gamer as well. They have a group of defense prospects that is both deep and which also boasts top-end talent. Theirs is moreover an organizational defense that is notable for having already assembled an impressive group of young blueliners on the NHL squad. When Ballard and Jones join Mara and Morris it will be among the strongest young top fours around.
BuppY
xGoodwillx
As well as Dimitry Vorobyev and Dominic D'Amour.BuppY said:Carlo Colaicovo
Brendon Bell
Jay Harrison
Ian White
John Doherty
thas not bad !!!
Vorobyev's potentially the top U20 Russian defenseman.
Explain to me how his skills translate into a top 4 defenseman.Postman said:
Apparently Nickerson's a poor skater... skating is a major factor, no? And McLaren was a big time prospect that turned out to be a disappointment, he had a lot more talent at 18 or 20 than a lot of current day prospects do.
As for offense, at the age of 17 Kyle McLaren had 32 points in 47 games in the WHL. At age 19 Nickerson has 3 points in 19 games in the QMJHL, talent should translate into production in junior hockey, shouldn't it?
http://spmark.hostingsports.com/5-26nickerson.htm
According to the couple reports I've read, he's not a good skater. HF.com itself says he's a poor skater... which really doesn't do much for your point.
I see it this way...
- He's big
- He's physical and has a nasty streak
- He's an average skater at best
- He likes to fight and rough it up
- Has little to no offensive skills right now
That sounds a lot like many of the bottom pairing/utility defensemen in the NHL right now, doesn't it? So far I have yet to find a scouting report saying he has offensive upside when he reaches professional hockey. He has skills, yes... but it's not terribly difficult to show the limited skills off in the NCAA or CHL, and I think one season of that has raised his stock.
Again, all this "he can't skate, lacks mobility" is what I'm reading about Matt Nickerson.
And again... same old story.
My opinion of some players comes from reading scouting reports and POV's of people that have seen him play, and so far all I've read and heard is that he's basically an average skating goon who managed to show glimpses of offensive potential in 30 games of NCAA hockey. Prior to that the Stars scouts didn't see much offensive upside in him and he's currently on pace for 9 points and 160+ minutes in penalties as a QMJHL player, this at the age of 19/20.
You may have seen him play once or twice, but his overall production and success prior to the NCAA and currently don't really have him rated as a player with offensive upside. Dallas' scouts and management were surprised with his 2003/04 season and didn't expect his offensive performance, but now he's changed leagues and has struggled to do anything offensively.
Leafaholix said:
That would be the same HF profile that was done shortly after he was drafted, and hasn't been changed since, because we have no writer..so your looking at a year old scouting report. I saw him at the Stars development camp early in September and he was a decent skater...not gonna blow anyone away, but better than average. He also lead his NCAA team in defenseman scoring as a freshman. He has the upside of a solid #4 guy. But for him to reach it, everything has to go almost perfect in his development.
So he's decent or above average?Chaos said:
I think when people say he's a decent skater, but nothing great... that usually means he's an average skater. Not below average (poor)... not above average (really good)... but average (decent).
Meh, I'm basically reading he's a poor skater... and I'll take that opinion over what someone on HF.com says, someone who's probably seen him a couple times and may have a bias take on things.
Canucks is much better than it used to be, with Bryan Allen graduated here's what their prospect defensive depth looks like.
1. Kirill Koltsov
2. Tomas Mojzis
3. Kevin Bieksa
4. Brett Skinner
5. Alexander Edler
6. Denis Grot
1. Kirill Koltsov
2. Tomas Mojzis
3. Kevin Bieksa
4. Brett Skinner
5. Alexander Edler
6. Denis Grot
BuppY said:Carlo Colaicovo
Brendon Bell
Jay Harrison
Ian White
John Doherty
thas not bad !!!
It isn't that good either. My Flyers look better, and I don't think they are overly impressive.
FLA:
Bouwmeester if he counts-not as a prospect though, but nonetheless should be mentioned
Lukas Krajicek: absolute bluechip offensive dman is extremely underrated. Only needs a better defensive game to make him a solid NHL player.
Filip Novak: was AHL all rookie team and allstar first AHL year but missed all last year due to injury.
Victor Uchevatov: Will probably be an NHLer. Big bruising hitter who levels everything.
Martin Lojek
Martin Tuma
Both big dman who use their size and are getting more mobile and developing their games.
Drew Bagnall: Could be a solid prospect after he comes out of college. Was a second round pick and good overall dman.
Bouwmeester if he counts-not as a prospect though, but nonetheless should be mentioned
Lukas Krajicek: absolute bluechip offensive dman is extremely underrated. Only needs a better defensive game to make him a solid NHL player.
Filip Novak: was AHL all rookie team and allstar first AHL year but missed all last year due to injury.
Victor Uchevatov: Will probably be an NHLer. Big bruising hitter who levels everything.
Martin Lojek
Martin Tuma
Both big dman who use their size and are getting more mobile and developing their games.
Drew Bagnall: Could be a solid prospect after he comes out of college. Was a second round pick and good overall dman.
Leafaholix said:
Ok he's an above average skater. Are you happy now? Better skater than guys like Belak or Cairns...thats his absolute downside. His upside is that of a solid #4 d-man(like McLaren as Postman has been saying). Chances are he wont reach that high, but he has that chance. We'll just have to wait and see.
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There still is a 2005 draft so we will see how things fall for NYR.Evilo said:
NYR could be there as well, not really a solid #1 guy but have plenty of #2-6 dmen:
Fedor Tyutin -potential to be a # 2 even #1 potential, possibly
Thomas Pock - potential #2-4
Kondratiev- have no idea but solid any where
Jake Taylor- When skating gets better has potential to be a #4-5, #4 is an ok call
Dave Liffiton- #5
Ivan Baranka#3-4
Bryce Lampman-#5-6
For his size, he can definitely skate well and is mobile. He has the ability to jump up into the play, is mean, hits, and plays solid defense when he stays out of the box. Kyle McLaren is a similar defenseman, and plays a top 4 (or #4) role. I'm not claiming a whole lot here, so I don't see why you're arguing, especially since you haven't seen him play.Leafaholix said:
He's not a poor skater. He's not Scott Niedermayer, but for his size, he can really move (unlike Belak and Cairns). While you're right about McLaren, he did turn out to be a dissapointment. Right now, he's a top 4 guy. And I see a lot of similarities between Nickerson and what McLaren is now.Leafaholix said:
Leafaholix said:
I haven't seen him in the QMJHL, so I don't know if he's jumping into the play like he was in the NCAA. However, he certainly has the ability and he himself has said he wants to be more than just a stay at home guy. If you've ever seen him play, you would know the stats don't truly reflect his potential. That's what I'm trying to get at here.
Well, with my own eyes, I've watched him skate pretty damn well for a big guy. Like was mentioned above, the HF profile hasn't been updated since he was drafted and the games I've watched were last season. Ask Oilers Chick or anyone who got a chance to watch him in the NCAA or at the USA Evaluation camp.Leafaholix said:
You "see" it that way, do ya?Leafaholix said:
You know they use to say Raffi Torres was a poor/slow skater when he was drafted. I was always led to believe that by the scouting reports I read, until I actually watched him play.
You're right in that he hasn't proven a whole lot offensively to date, but we already have one other person that has seen him play and agrees with me that his skating is above average (which to me, above average = good). Add in the fact that he's 6-5, 235 lbs, his willingness to jump in the play, and you've got a defenseman with some potential. I never thought he had top 3 potential, but all along I've been saying he could be a #4, who plays a similar game to McLaren (who got 24 points last year, which I think could be feasible at Nickerson's peak).Leafaholix said:
Where do you get off saying I've only seen him once or twice, when you, once again, have not seen him at all? Quite presumptiuous, is it not?Leafaholix said:
I have not seen him yet this year in the QMJHL, so I can't explain his failure to put up points. Maybe he's having a hard time adjusting to the league, who knows. But he's got the skills. Ask anyone who say him play in the NCAA.
Above average, especially for his size.Leafaholix said:
The guy is 6-4, 235 lbs. He's not gonna move around like Konstantin Koltsov, but you won't find a lot of guys his size that can skate like he can.Leafaholix said:
So you're assuming how many times I've seen him, along with assuming his style of play, and assuming I have a bias? You like to assume a lot, don't you?Leafaholix said:
Even if I have only seen him once or twice, that's still more than you. And that's more than enough to evaluate his skating ability.
And for the record, I've seen him more than a handful of times, and I'm not a Stars fan.
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J17ster said:
what are you talking about, where is the danger. if you had 6 good d prospects, maybe 2 or 3 will develop like you want if your lucky, but with 10 you might get 4 or five.. let me know when i get into the dangerous part..
J17ster said:
so the following scenario is absolutely out of the question of happening?
team A needs some defensive depth or another solid young d to add to their corps. they have an offensive player to dangle in a trade, approach chicago, and a deal is done
seems simple to me, OR, chicago can *gulp* draft some offense, or even better.. SIGN SOME
Beukeboom Fan said:
true
Ajacied
Stay strong Appie! ❤
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