Defensemen who have led their team in scoring?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by kmad, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Rhiessan71

    Rhiessan71 Just a Fool

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    What do you mean his "myth and legend"?
    He's known as one of the very best defensive dmen and it's deserved. That's hardly a "myth" or a "legend", it just is what it is.
    Or are you calling it that because most people place him above Lidstrom defensively?
     
  2. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Wow, the 1993 Senators and the 2004 Penguins were REALLY bad teams, I've forgotten just how bad the Penguins were back then. Insane.

    Looks like Karlsson might do this a few times with the Senators. Spezza doesn't score like he used to anymore so the brightest offensive light is Karlsson.

    It doesn't say a whole lot about Nashville either that a defenseman like Weber led them in points twice. Nothing against Weber, a lock for the HHOF someday and he is always a 50ish point defenseman, but that probably shouldn't lead your team.
     
  3. Horvath Broncos

    Horvath Broncos Registered User

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    not disagreeing with you just asking. but how is Shea Weber lock for the HHOF. He has never won anything in NHL and if he sticks in Nashville I have hard time believing he will ever win a cup and with all the great young D-men coming up I think he might never win one single Norris.
     
  4. Sprague Cleghorn

    Sprague Cleghorn User Registered

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    He has two 1st AST berths and those hold a lot of weight. But yes I don't see him being a lock yet, unless he can get a couple more AST berths. I've often seen people think Keith, Doughty and Weber are locks for the HOF but I just don't see it. Sure they're on the right path but as of right now, their trophy shelves looks a little too bare.
     
  5. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Weber seems to have a Rob Blake career going, so I'd be inclined to say he'll be in the Hall. (Blake will.)

    But calling him a "lock", as in, if he retired now he would be in? No, I would not say that for sure. But from this point it's as easy as speding about 7 more years as a clear #1 defenseman, even if he stops getting Norris consideration.
     
  6. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    not so sure about that last sentence. without the cup and the norris win, and strong play in two other deep runs (weber has almost zero playoff resume on an all-time scale), does blake make the hall? i doubt it.

    not to say that weber might not be on pace for a rob blake career, as you suggest. just that blake hit some high points that weber hasn't yet, and that if weber just keeps on without winning anything i don't think he squeaks in.
     
  7. Sonic Disturbance

    Sonic Disturbance Grandmaster User

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    Weber is on the right track for the HHOF, but "lock" probably wouldn't be the appropriate term at the moment. He has no trophies, individual or team, and Nashville has done squat in the playoffs to date (Weber only has ~40 playoff games). Sad, because he could've easily had 2 Norris trophies which essentially would make a lock.
     
  8. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    Updated for 2013/14. Big year - Erik Karlsson, Shea Weber and Keith Yandle each led their respective teams in scoring.
     
  9. Wrath

    Wrath Registered User

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    If Keith wins the Norris this year, which it seems like he probably will due to the fact that Nashville didn't make the playoffs, then it'll be hard to keep Keith out of the HHOF. How many players have won two norrises and are not in the HHOF?

    Meanwhile Weber gets robbed again, and still is on the outside looking in for HHOF candidacy.

    At least this time it wasn't as bad as losing in 2011 to Lidstrom when him and Chara were the clear frontrunners.
     
  10. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Not sure if Weber is a lock but he has played 6 seasons at elite or near elite level hockey, if for some tragic reason something happened to his career my bet he would make the HHOF right now.
     
  11. Wrath

    Wrath Registered User

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    Yeah but the HHOF voters like trophies :\

    Weber probably should have won the Norris in 2010-2011, 2011-2012, and 2013-2014 (assuming he doesn't win this year).
     
  12. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Sure they do but Weber also has been a very impressive Dman for the Olympic gold Canadian team 2 times now and also had an elite type of WC performance in 09.

    Going forward in a 30 team league lots of great Dmen are going to miss out on a Norris and/or a SC as well.

    Weber has a 2,2,4,7,,8 and 17th place Norris finishes so far (along with a probable top 5 again this year).

    Lots of 06 guys in the HHOF not named Kelly or Harvey have slightly better finishes but only against Canadian talent, Weber is competing against Cahra/Karlsson/Lidstrom/Suter for most of his peak so far.
     
  13. Wrath

    Wrath Registered User

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    He's a finalist this year so I think he's guaranteed top 3 in voting right? (I may be wrong though)

    I agree with you that he definitely deserves it, it pains me to think that Keith and Chara might make the hall while Weber won't, or the fact that either of them are beating him in # of Norris trophies.
     
  14. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    I think all 3 guys are HHOF material, Chara and Keith are in fore sure and Weber will be as well.
     
  15. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    yeah, at this point I don't see why not.
     
  16. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    chara is a lock, and keith might be by now too, especially if he wins another norris this year. but not sure that weber has put himself above doug wilson territory yet. doughty might arguably be closer actually.

    and thinking of doughty, what does he have to do for the rest of his career to NOT make the hall? kariya/lindros-esque injury-related collapse?
     
  17. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Doughty is well on track on making the HHOF.

    A Conn Smythe this year will make his case sooner rather than alter but my pick so far is Kopitar (who is also very close to becoming a lock for the HHOF in a year or 2).

    This is only his 6th year and he is just 25 this December.

    The thing is that I doubt he ever wins a Norris and might become part of the "who is the best Dman to never win a Norris" discussion
     
  18. Ishdul

    Ishdul Registered User

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    Well if the Kings lose this series and never win it again with Doughty as one of their big contributors, that'll probably help. At that point the only things he has for sure are a single 3rd place Norris finish and a few very good but not impossible to ignore playoff runs and they won't necessarily feel compelled to put in a bunch of Kings if they only win once. Even in the likely event that the Kings win this series he still needs some additional pull, although without a catastrophic injury it's hard to see him not getting that.

    He needs an offensive season like he had in 2010 (and he certainly has the talent/opportunity to replicate that) but otherwise I think he's in great position to get some good Norris votes in the coming years. The Kings are likely to be very good for at least the near future, Doughty himself has built a great defensive reputation with numbers to back that up and I do think there's a demand with his Olympic and playoff runs to recognize him with some individual achievement.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  19. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    [​IMG]

    ... should get in for his sense of humor alone.
     
  20. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    i actually think doughty's been as good as kopitar this spring, though the numbers will mean it's almost certainly kopi's conn smythe and i can't argue he's not deserving. dd was the kings' best skater by far in '12. and arguably canada's best player in '10 and '14.

    yeah, he'll have to add to make it but he might already be the best defenseman outside the hall, not counting ineligible guys + blake, if he were to retire tomorrow.

    not sure why you doubt he'll win a norris hardy. seems like a guy who even if he never gets one fair and square will get a reputation one before all is said and done. knowing voters, his team canada bona fides and playoff rep should do that much for him at least.
     
  21. solidmotion

    solidmotion Registered User

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    if he keeps putting up <40 pt regular seasons he'll never win a norris. even on reputation. he'll have to decide the regular season is worth a damn and play up to his ability.
     
  22. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    He might win a Norris but it will probably be a reputation award and not in a deserving year later on in his career.

    It's just a gut feeling, not that he isn't worthy.

    Too many really good Dmen who score more points and some really good young competition as well in OEL, Troumba, Jones, Murray coming up don't help either.
     
  23. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    yeah i think ryan murray is going to be really special.

    i wonder though whether voters will consider doughty's numbers pre- and post-sutter. though i guess scotty stevens never won a norris either so maybe not.
     
  24. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    what you mean to say is, he'll have to play on a team with a deadly PP where he can rack up easy points.
     
  25. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    by the way, I can't believe that a year ago approximately half of us thought Letang was a better player than Doughty. My God. (I was not among them)
     

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