Defense - Is it Really About the System or the Talent?

maacoshark

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Jul 22, 2017
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As a Caps fan I would say defence is definitely more about the system than individual play. The Caps went from a run and gun team to a defensively responsible team without a real shutdown dman.
Caps fans think Niskanen is a shutdown guy but I think he is more the product of the system. They thought Alzner was a shutdown guy. Canadians fans know different.
This year with a different system we are noticing the individual defensive play more so than in the past. So far this year the Caps best defensive defenseman has actually been Carlson and it isn't even close. Never thought Id say that. Orpik is probably next and the rest of the core has been brutal.
 

PromisedLand

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when it comes to defense it has to be "team defense" and system more than talent.

No real reason to look any further: look at the last 3 cup champs how many of them had any true bonafide no.1 D-men on their roster? (letang was injured in the 2nd cup run for the pens)

heck look at VGK making it all the way to the finals playing "team defense"

it comes down to system and players buying into the system.
 

Burke the Legend

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Feb 22, 2012
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System & Forwards.

NHL Dmen for the most part will do their job asides from a few guys who have blatant weaknesses at certain aspects of the game.

Nowadays offenses are so mobile, 2 d-men alone can't cover all the guys in motion, you have basically 4-5 attackers buzzing around, trying to rush into open shooting positions, you really need forwards who are able to recognize and cover just as well as any D. A single liability up front will also drag a whole line down.
 
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48g90a138pts

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Jun 30, 2016
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When I look at international hockey tournaments the Russian teams are always loaded with talent. But generally seem to underperform for the most part. Playing great defense is still the key to winning championships. There's so much emphasis on 2 way hockey today that If you want to excel you can't lolly gag on defense if your a forward.

I'm not going to throw out some random numbers as to what percentage talent vs. systems, but the systems side is definitely weighted heavier than the talent side for success.... especially when it comes down to playoff time.

Many other factors come into play also like team chemistry for one example.

Coaching is where it all begins though.
 

Discordia

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Nov 1, 2017
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I think it's both. In Toronto we have poor defensive coaching with poor defensive players, so when the puck goes into our zone it's like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off. Making the issue worse is the coaching preaches stretch passes 100% of the time (So forwards blow the zone super early) which leads to a lot of turnovers, icings, etc.

A better system would make the defense more calm, but it wouldn't make them be able to win puck battles or stop cycles.
 
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WJCJ

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Sep 27, 2017
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It is the system, the players, and either having a system that helps your players or going out and getting players that can play the best in the system that you are going to employ. Having a great system and bad players is not going achieve the same heights as having a great system and players who play great in that system obviously.
 

wintersej

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System & Forwards.

NHL Dmen for the most part will do their job asides from a few guys who have blatant weaknesses at certain aspects of the game.

Nowadays offenses are so mobile, 2 d-men alone can't cover all the guys in motion, you have basically 4-5 attackers buzzing around, trying to rush into open shooting positions, you really need forwards who are able to recognize and cover just as well as any D. A single liability up front will also drag a whole line down.

Yes. No matter if you play man to man or zone or if you attack the offense guys at the red or blue line or just collapse, the big difference between the very good defense teams and the mediocre ones is how engaged the forward group is.
 

Bluesnatic27

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Aug 5, 2011
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Well the Blues have players like Pietrangelo, Parayko, and Edmundson, and yet still look like absolute dog-feces this year. So I'm more inclined to believe it's the system as opposed to talent.
 

Slyfox

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Dec 12, 2016
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System imo. Leafs haven't looked great in 2+ years ever since they implemented using only stretch passes to exit the zone. During our tank season, we were much better defensively.
 

Fig

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Dec 15, 2014
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IMO depending on how you view system and how a system views balance, I'd easily say it's system over talent. Though talent is important in a system, I think more teams fail without maintaining a good system than a team failing due to less superstars on the back end. The defensive system should be built around the talent on the roster. IMO talent helps to get the most out of a system. The system helps with efficiencies/effectiveness so that all other players on a roster can predict each other, especially in a fast fluid game like hockey. A bad player dragging down a pairing probably is more due to the inability to adhere to the system than purely being incapable of defending (ie: Think phalanx).

Pittsburgh utilizing under performing dmen to bolster their d corps IMO is a good example of this (Schultz, Oleksiak etc.). Their system utilizes the talent effectively as opposed to other systems not properly utilizing the talent of certain players.

Nashville is able to have a more complex utilization of the d corps because of the talent of the dmen on that roster. But IMO, if the players don't adhere to the system, it doesn't matter what talent you have there, the corps will fall fast. (ie: PK Subban being too cute with his plays)

Another major reason for systems over talent IMO is due to pairings. Having complementary players together helps the pairing achieve the strategy of the system IMO. Talent will bolster the effectiveness of the system, but the system must support that talent. Having a defensive minded guy with an offensive minded guy is a good set up. Think SJS and their d corps talent.

Vlasic - Burns/Karlsson sounds good.
Burns - Karlsson sounds like a double edged sword.
 

StreetHawk

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Sep 30, 2017
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when it comes to defense it has to be "team defense" and system more than talent.

No real reason to look any further: look at the last 3 cup champs how many of them had any true bonafide no.1 D-men on their roster? (letang was injured in the 2nd cup run for the pens)

heck look at VGK making it all the way to the finals playing "team defense"

it comes down to system and players buying into the system.
Also need the right type of guys to play that system. They don’t need to be elite but they need to have the skill set that best fits that system.
 

Sky04

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Jan 8, 2009
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System easily - you need everyone on the same page which makes playing defense that much easier. You can have a bunch of talented defense man scrabbling around.
 
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Flair Hay

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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say about equal parts of both. Then sprinkle in an equal amount of goaltending and voila!
 

McNuge

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Dec 17, 2010
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System 100%. It is not only the D men that need to be defensively responsible but all of the forwards as well. You can have mediocre talent on defense but if the entire team is playing a good defensive game it goes way further than individual talent. ie see Vegas last year and the Pens when they won the cup with Letang hurt. Both of those D cores are pretty bad on paper but Vegas made it to the finals and The Pens actually won it all without their best D man.
 

Danny1237

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Jun 12, 2016
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I think systems have a big impact on team possession metrics, which definitely impacts defensive ability, but sometimes this gets overstated as if possession and defense are completely interchangeable.

The way I look at it, the system will dictate how a teams plans to operate with possession, and that will have a big impact on the possession numbers, but great talent will execute at a better rate, which will push the possession number a bit higher as well as cut down on things like how many attempts against are high danger.

If we take a team like Tampa, who if you look at pure possession numbers, they look like a high offense run and gun team that allowed a ton of shots. However, Vashilevsky had the highest expected save percentage of any goalie in the league, which means Tampa allowed the lowest quality of shots of any team in the NHL. Tampa essentially built a style where teams with less offensive talent were allowed to trade chances with them, then used their more talented players to block royal road passes, and keep chances further out. So they essentially banked on their forwards creating higher danger chances, and their D on doing a better job of limiting the other teams high danger chances and created as system where they could run amok on the opposing team offensively. Given the composition of their team, I think this is a great strategy, even if it doesn't lead to dominate possession stats, but this strategy does require high end talent to execute.

Meanwhile, a team like Edmonton tried to dominate games by just limiting shots at all costs, but the lack of talent produced a situation where Talbot actually out produced his expected save percentage but the team still got lit up a lot. This is because players were playing a system that limited shots, but other teams were able to exploit them to create a lot of high percentage chances, while also knowing they could safely take more risks whenever McDavid wasn't on the ice.

Edmonton probably wasn't quite as bad as their record showed last year, but I know a lot of people that expect them to turn it around quickly because they think their possession numbers made it obvious they just got really unlucky.

I think a coach's system can have a massive impact on team defense, and I do think Carlyle might be one of the worst coaches in the league, as his systems tend to both produce lower expected save percentages and more shots against, and because they aren't trading them for more chances at the other end, his teams won't out score their problems, but I do think talent matters a lot in terms of the execution of that strategy.

Carolina is a very nice early example of this. They have been a great defensive and possession team for years, but this year, the combination of adding a 2nd threat from the back end, along with Aho taking a step, Necas coming in, and Svenchnikov, as well as at least average goaltending, is producing much better early results. The injection of higher end offensive talent is what is driving their early success, as they are playing a relatively similar style.
 

Bank Shot

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Jan 18, 2006
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It can only be one or the other? Why can't defence be about both?

It's definitely both.

You can get things done with a great system and team buy in, but if you have great defensive players, you can play a more open game and still get the defensive results.
 

SuperScript29

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Nov 17, 2017
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That was 3 pairings of above average defenders though. Not great, not good, but very solid.

Not sure I'd call all of them above average defenders, like I said, Kaberle had a solid year and I would say he probably played like a borderline top-pairing guy. You could also argue that Hedican played like a legit top-4 that year, but the rest of the guys were average at best. Wesley was of course above average back in his earlier years, but this was a 36 year old player that had declined significantly.
 

bluedevil58

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Oct 19, 2017
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Not sure I'd call all of them above average defenders, like I said, Kaberle had a solid year and I would say he probably played like a borderline top-pairing guy. You could also argue that Hedican played like a legit top-4 that year, but the rest of the guys were average at best. Wesley was of course above average back in his earlier years, but this was a 36 year old player that had declined significantly.

Seidenberg . Wallin. Commodore. Babchuck. They were all on that squad too. The first 3 names listed were not scrubs.
 

SuperScript29

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Nov 17, 2017
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Seidenberg . Wallin. Commodore. Babchuck. They were all on that squad too. The first 3 names listed were not scrubs.

Seidenberg did not play for the Canes in 2006, and even if he did, back then he was not above average. Babchuck did play for them, but he only played 22 regular season games and did not play in the playoffs, not to mention that he was only a prospect. Wallin and Commodore did play for them and were part of the cup squad, but they're definitely not above average.

Like I said, it's very rare to win the cup with that kind of defense, but the Canes did have a strong forward group that year, and some of them were top notch two-way forwards, such as Rod Brind'Amour for example who won the Selke back to back around that time (2006 and 2007).
 

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