Dec. 11, 1964 Soviet National vs Junior Canadiens

[Canadiens1958]

Game was played at the Montreal Forum. The Junior Canadiens, a young rebuilding team were strengthened by six players from the Quebec Aces - Gump Worsley, Doug Harvey, John Hanna, Red Berenson, Bill Sutherland, Leon Rochefort:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Op8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6552,2804404

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Op8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3838,2806479

The Soviets won 3 - 2. Doug Harvey, 8 days shy of his 40th birthday played app. 50 minutes.

Click to read more...

 

[Killion]

Well now thats kinda interesting C58. Some of the same names that appeared in 72 were active in 64 (no frikin slouch in Firsov for eg.). Again, we had guys like the Gumper' calling them a "not bad intermediate squad". I remember watching the Czech Ntl Team play an Exhibition against the Marlies at MLG around the same time, again, the Marlies regulars supplanted by some Leafs, and they either lost or tied (memory almost full, cant remember exactly).

I cant for the life of me remember the exact details, but theres a star crossed symmetry here between your threads & Father David Bauer / Carl Brewer. He was castigated, a "Coward" in the NHL for failing to fight. Turtled. He had been directly challenged. Labeled & written off. Anyhoo, Carl believed in the supremacy of the Canadian Amateur System over the Europeans/Russians yet for anyone cognizant at the time pretty hard to see it much less agree or understand what he was on about. The Soviets under Tarasov's Greenhouse were incredible. The Czech's masters of the trap as early as the late 40's.

 

[VMBM]

Well now thats kinda interesting C58. Some of the same names that appeared in 72 were active in 64 (no frikin slouch in Firsov for eg.).

Kuzkin and Ragulin are the only ones I noticed.

 

[Theokritos]

Not to be confused with the game between the Junior Canadiens and the Soviet Union one year later on December 15th, 1965, in which Jacques Plante was outstanding.

The Soviets arrived in Montréal on the evening of December 10th after a flight of 20 hours. In Montréal they had a meal and then checked into their hotel around midnight. The next day they played against the Junior Canadiens. Not an easy schedule. (20 hours plane flight: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search. Arrival and check in: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search)

Other games on the 1964 North America tour:
Dec. 13, Toronto: Canada - Soviet Union 0-4
Dec. 15, Fort Williams: Lakehead Senior All-Stars - Soviet Union 3-3
Dec. 17, Winnipeg: Canada - Soviet Union 1-6
Dec. 18, Saskatoon: Saskatoon Quakers - Soviet Union 3-11
Dec. 20, Winnipeg: Canada - Soviet Union 1-4
Dec. 26, Colorado Springs: Czechoslovakia - Soviet Union 2-8
Dec. 27, Colorado Springs: Canada - Soviet Union 3-5
Dec. 29, Colorado Springs: Czechoslovakia - Soviet Union 3-5
Dec. 30, Colorado Springs: Canada - Soviet Union 5-7

Interesting that the Junior Canadiens were coached by Scotty Bowman. Bowman and the Russians, a long history, from the 1964 Junior Canadiens to the 1995 Russian Five.

The Soviets and the Montréal Canadiens, another interesting story. When in Canada for the first time in 1957, Anatoli Tarasov didn't miss the chance to watch the Canadiens. Ever since that the Soviets were huge admirers of the Canadiens. They sure would have loved to play the Canadiens instead of the Junior Canadiens, but in 1964 it would've been a blow-up of course.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Details

Not to be confused with the game between the Junior Canadiens and the Soviet Union one year later on December 15th, 1965, in which Jacques Plante was outstanding.

The Soviets arrived in Montréal on the evening of December 10th after a flight of 20 hours. In Montréal they had a meal and then checked into their hotel around midnight. The next day they played against the Junior Canadiens. Not an easy schedule. (20 hours plane flight: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search. Arrival and check in: The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search)

Other games on the 1964 North America tour:
Dec. 13, Toronto: Canada - Soviet Union 0-4
Dec. 15, Fort Williams: Lakehead Senior All-Stars - Soviet Union 3-3
Dec. 17, Winnipeg: Canada - Soviet Union 1-6
Dec. 18, Saskatoon: Saskatoon Quakers - Soviet Union 3-11
Dec. 20, Winnipeg: Canada - Soviet Union 1-4
Dec. 26, Colorado Springs: Czechoslovakia - Soviet Union 2-8
Dec. 27, Colorado Springs: Canada - Soviet Union 3-5
Dec. 29, Colorado Springs: Czechoslovakia - Soviet Union 3-5
Dec. 30, Colorado Springs: Canada - Soviet Union 5-7

Interesting that the Junior Canadiens were coached by Scotty Bowman. Bowman and the Russians, a long history, from the 1964 Junior Canadiens to the 1995 Russian Five.

The Soviets and the Montréal Canadiens, another interesting story. When in Canada for the first time in 1957, Anatoli Tarasov didn't miss the chance to watch the Canadiens. Ever since that the Soviets were huge admirers of the Canadiens. They sure would have loved to play the Canadiens instead of the Junior Canadiens, but in 1964 it would've been a blow-up of course.

The Soviets arranged their own flights and off ice scheduling. It was not imposed on them. They could have easily arrived days earlier but chose not to.

Scotty Bowman and the Soviets go back to the first Soviet tour when the 1957-58 Junior Canadiens played the touring Soviets. This is mentioned in one of the linked articles when Bowman talks about Ralph Backstrom in that game.

The issue of juniors(teenagers) playing adults(men) has been touched on previously. The 1956-57 Junior Canadiens, Memorial Cup finalists played a split schedule which included 4 exhibition games against the 4 NHL American teams and 20 regular season games as part of the QHL. Their QHL record was 7-12-1 even though the team was reinforced with two minor league goalies and a few minor league players for their QHL games:

Quebec Hockey League history and statistics at hockeydb.com

Scotty Bowman and Sam Pollock ran the 1956-57 and 1957-58 Junior Canadiens.

The 6 Quebec Aces that played with the Junior Canadiens had played at home the night before losing to Cleveland 4 - 1. They never practiced with the juniors.

The 1964-65 Junior Canadiens were a 20-28-8 team in the OHA, 5th out of 8 teams.

Montreal Junior Canadiens 1964-65 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Only two 19 year olds - Rene Drolet and Robert Lemieux, rest were 16-18 year olds, talented but not physically mature to play against men.

 

[Zine]

The issue of juniors(teenagers) playing adults(men) has been touched on previously. The 1956-57 Junior Canadiens, Memorial Cup finalists played a split schedule which included 4 exhibition games against the 4 NHL American teams and 20 regular season games as part of the QHL. Their QHL record was 7-12-1 even though the team was reinforced with two minor league goalies and a few minor league players for their QHL games:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/191.html

Scotty Bowman and Sam Pollock ran the 1956-57 and 1957-58 Junior Canadiens.

The 6 Quebec Aces that played with the Junior Canadiens had played at home the night before losing to Cleveland 4 - 1. They never practiced with the juniors.

The 1964-65 Junior Canadiens were a 20-28-8 team in the OHA, 5th out of 8 teams.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0010531965.html

Only two 19 year olds - Rene Drolet and Robert Lemieux, rest were 16-18 year olds, talented but not physically mature to play against men.

Do you know the results of the Junior Canadiens/NHL games?....because the quote from Red Berenson is interesting:

They're a long way from the NHL. On a given night they might beat an NHL team but on another night a good junior team would beat them.

Based on his comments, one could assume that a good junior team could beat an NHL club once in a while. The fact that organizers had no qualms about scheduling NHL/junior exhibition games verifies this imo.
Under no circumstance would this be done today. Junior team players would risk career ending injury if pitted against an NHL squad.
How far apart was the competition gap between the two back then?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Junior vs NHL

Do you know the results of the Junior Canadiens/NHL games?....because the quote from Red Berenson is interesting:


Based on his comments, one could assume that a good junior team could beat an NHL club once in a while. The fact that organizers had no qualms about scheduling NHL/junior exhibition games verifies this imo.
Under no circumstance would this be done today. Junior team players would risk career ending injury if pitted against an NHL squad.
How far apart was the competition gap between the two back then?

Will fill in some of the details for you. The 1956-57 Junior Canadiens were two teams in one. A strictly junior aged team that played in an Ontario junior league and a partial junior - better older juniors supported by young pros including two goalies, who played a 20 game schedule in the QHL a pro league behind the AHL, WHL and four exhibition games against NHL teams - Boston, Chicago, Detroit and New York.

Ottawa Jr. Canadiens 1956-57 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Above is the mixed junior / pro roster earlier this year I started another thread about the 1956-57 Junior Canadiens:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/1956-57-ottawa-junior-canadiens.921257/

First post contains a link to the game story for the January 16th game that the Junior Canadiens lost 8-3 to the New York Rangers, They lost by slightly smaller margins to the Bruins and Red Wings. From memory I believe they beat the Hawks by a goal.

A few comments about the exhibition games the Junior Canadiens played against NHL teams. The games were played during the regular season in Ottawa, scheduled around regular NHL games. The NHL teams often rested players or used the star players sparingly. Effectively you did not have pure junior teams playing against motivated NHL teams. Very few penalties or very little contact.

The results against the QHL teams are interesting. The Junior Canadiens had a 7-12-1 record, 57GF / 74 GA. Yes defense was the problem.

Three nights after playing the juniors the Rangers played the Canadiens at the Forum and lost 5-0 :

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=921257 link dead

Realize that the sampling is small but the contrast is still there.

The games were organized mainly as a fundraiser with a learning experience for the juniors. No real benefit to the NHL team whose main concern was avoiding an injury.

Into the 1960's the Canadiens would play similar fundraisers on occassion against a junior team - MMJHL Palestre Nationale or local Senior team. The junior or senior team would be augmented with star players from other teams in the league replacing the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of the team. The Canadien stars would be used sparingly and a few call-ups were in the line-up. Really nothing more than a controlled scrimmage.

 

[Theokritos]

The Soviets arranged their own flights and off ice scheduling. It was not imposed on them. They could have easily arrived days earlier but chose not to.

I didn't claim the opposite. But for an evaluation of the Soviets' on-ice performance, the schedule is a factor that has to be taken into account, no matter who was responsible for it.

Scotty Bowman and the Soviets go back to the first Soviet tour when the 1957-58 Junior Canadiens played the touring Soviets. This is mentioned in one of the linked articles when Bowman talks about Ralph Backstrom in that game.

I wasn't aware that Bowman was coaching the Junior Canadiens as early as 1957.
BTW, I can't find the passage you mention (Bowman on Backstrom) in the linked articles.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1956-57 Junior Canadiens

I didn't claim the opposite. But for an evaluation of the Soviets' on-ice performance, the schedule is a factor that has to be taken into account, no matter who was responsible for it.



I wasn't aware that Bowman was coaching the Junior Canadiens as early as 1957.
BTW, I can't find the passage you mention (Bowman on Backstrom) in the linked articles.

See the link. Bowman was the assistant coach to Sam Pollock:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0009231957.html

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ralph Backstrom

I didn't claim the opposite. But for an evaluation of the Soviets' on-ice performance, the schedule is a factor that has to be taken into account, no matter who was responsible for it.



I wasn't aware that Bowman was coaching the Junior Canadiens as early as 1957.
BTW, I can't find the passage you mention (Bowman on Backstrom) in the linked articles.

From the pre game article, Bowman on Backstrom:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OZ8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6314,2588504

Basically you had the 1964 Olympic champions together for years playing a weak, young, junior team with six quality AHL players added without benefit of one practice together. Five of the juniors saw perhaps 1 - 2 shifts per period as they were not physically strong enough to play against men. Gord Berenson was the only one to have played under international rules.

If an almost 40 year old Doug Harvey could play app fifty minutes and dominate after playing an AHL game the night before then....

Yes various factors should be considered not only one.

 

[Theokritos]

From the pre game article, Bowman on Backstrom:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OZ8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJ8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6314,2588504

Thanks. That article wasn't linked before though, no wonder I couldn't find it.
But of course an interesting read.

...
Yes various factors should be considered not only one.

Agreed. And I think no-one is going to deny that the Soviets were still considerably behind the North Americans pros by 1964 anyway.
I'm going to look into the Soviets pre-1972 tours of North America a bit more for a clearer picture of how their competitiveness developed from the 50s to the 70s.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

So in 8 years (to 1972) the Russians improved to the point of being on par/exceeding the caliber of play in the NHL? Sounds like there was a lot of denial. I think there was a lot of bruised egos in Canadian hockey aside from Red Berensen and Doug Harvey and maybe a few others who offered more objective observations. The Cold War clearly had a tremendous effect on the North American psyche. The most amazing thing to me is that Canadians were surprised when the Russians beat them in game one of the 72 series. Perhaps not if this had been in the day of multi- media. Espo certainly didn't sound surprised when he shared his thoughts after the Vancouver game.

 

[PetrCech]

They sure would have loved to play the Canadiens instead of the Junior Canadiens, but in 1964 it would've been a blow-up of course.

It was always supposed to be a "blow up" in favor of Canadians yet I can't remember them defeating the prime Soviets without cheating/the refs on their side.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It was always supposed to be a "blow up" in favor of Canadians yet I can't remember them defeating the prime Soviets without cheating/the refs on their side.

Are you a goaltender?

 

[Theokritos]

It was always supposed to be a "blow up" in favor of Canadians yet I can't remember them defeating the prime Soviets without cheating/the refs on their side.

If you didn't use "cheating" I'd be more inclined to think you're interested in an actual debate, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt regardless, so let's try: Yes, the Canadians certainly expected a blow up in 1972 and were very wrong about it. But 1964? With full awareness of what happened in 1972, I would still put a lot of money on a blow up in a 1964 series. Soviet hockey developed and improved a lot between the early and the late 1960s; 1964 is too early a date on the scale for me to believe the Soviets would have been as ready as they were in 1972. Are you aware how Soviet players and coaches reacted to NHL hockey when they first came to North America in the late 1960s and beginning 1960s?

 

[MaxV]

If you didn't use "cheating" I'd be more inclined to think you're interested in an actual debate, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt regardless, so let's try: Yes, the Canadians certainly expected a blow up in 1972 and were very wrong about it. But 1964? With full awareness of what happened in 1972, I would still put a lot of money on a blow up in a 1964 series. Soviet hockey developed and improved a lot between the early and the late 1960s; 1964 is too early a date on the scale for me to believe the Soviets would have been as ready as they were in 1972. Are you aware how Soviet players and coaches reacted to NHL hockey when they first came to North America in the late 1960s and beginning 1960s?

Perhaps, you are right, we will never know. One of the biggest injustices is the fact that 1960s Soviet stars never got a chance to prove themselves. Yes, a couple of them played in 1972, but I don't think any of them were in their prime or even close to it.

There is another question to ask here also. Was the 1972 Soviet team really the best around that period?

There is a little overlap between 1970s stars and 1960s stars, so I think it's not unreasonable to think that Soviets could have put a better team on the ice earlier then 1972.

I'm not saying that's a slam dunk. Yes, having Firsov would be huge, but there are also other questions.

 

[PetrCech]

If you didn't use "cheating" I'd be more inclined to think you're interested in an actual debate, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt regardless, so let's try: Yes, the Canadians certainly expected a blow up in 1972 and were very wrong about it. But 1964? With full awareness of what happened in 1972, I would still put a lot of money on a blow up in a 1964 series. Soviet hockey developed and improved a lot between the early and the late 1960s; 1964 is too early a date on the scale for me to believe the Soviets would have been as ready as they were in 1972. Are you aware how Soviet players and coaches reacted to NHL hockey when they first came to North America in the late 1960s and beginning 1960s?

1 In mid 60s players like Alexandrov, Starshinov, Ragulin, Loktev and especially Firsov were at their peak

2 Of course their tours around North America were only meaningless exhibition games, usually about 15 in a span of 25 days, but they played and won against some teams with big players like:

-a mix of junior Canadians and pros with - Harvey (obviously past his prime but still a legend), Savard (18), Berenson, Lemaire (19), Worsley

-an All Star Junior team with Orr (a season before he won Calder Memorial and got into the NHL Second All Star team), Savard (19), Derek Sanderson (19), Andre Lacroix (20)

If the Summit happened in 64 there would be much more preparation, rest, practice and efforts put and the results could go either way. Soviet hockey Golden Age started with Firsov, not in the 70s.

3 Don't understad why mentioning Canadians’ cheating has such impact on you. There were lots of dirty plays or referee bias in favor of Canadians. Videos don't lie.

 

[Theokritos]

1 In mid 60s players like Alexandrov, Starshinov, Ragulin, Loktev and especially Firsov were at their peak

Firsov was at his peak circa 1967-1971. Starshinov in the second half of the 1960s. If the proposal was e.g. a series in 1967, I could see the point. 1964? Not quite as much.

2 Of course their tours around North America were only meaningless exhibition games, usually about 15 in a span of 25 days, but they played and won against some teams with big players like:

-a mix of junior Canadians and pros with - Harvey (obviously past his prime but still a legend), Savard (18), Berenson, Lemaire (19), Worsley

-an All Star Junior team with Orr (a season before he won Calder Memorial and got into the NHL Second All Star team), Savard (19), Derek Sanderson (19), Andre Lacroix (20)

If the Summit happened in 64 there would be much more preparation, rest, practice and efforts put and the results could go either way. Soviet hockey Golden Age started with Firsov, not in the 70s.

1963 was literally the year the Soviets finally managed to get the better of the Canadians at the World Championships after several failed attempts. And one year later they would give Bobby Hull and Jean Beliveau a run for the money? I don't see it. Back in the year 1960 the Soviets were literally in awe of how good the NHL players were when they attended games in Canada.

3 Don't understand why mentioning Canadians’ cheating has such impact on you. There were lots of dirty plays or referee bias in favor of Canadians. Videos don't lie.

It shows that you have a partisan attitude. For starters, there is quite some room between "bias" and "cheating", which everyone acknowledges who is interested in serious pro and con arguments. On the other hand, people who are only interested in partisanly boosting one side don't acknowledge that difference and are quick to make accusations (and of course, always against one side only).

 

[PetrCech]

Firsov was at his peak circa 1967-1971. Starshinov in the second half of the 1960s. If the proposal was e.g. a series in 1967, I could see the point. 1964? Not quite as much.

When it comes to scoring then yes, his best years were 1966-71 when, with the exccption of the 1969-70 season he was the Soviet top scorer (both points and goals) every year. However in 1964 he was already considered the top 3 best Russian player alongside Alexandrov and Loktev. 1964-65 - the season they played the team this thread is about was his second USSR All Stars season and at the Olympics that year he proved that when it comes to skills and stickhandling he was already at Beliveau's level.

t shows that you have a partisan attitude. For starters, there is quite some room between "bias" and "cheating", which everyone acknowledges who is interested in serious pro and con arguments. On the other hand, people who are only interested in partisanly boosting one side don't acknowledge that difference and are quick to make accusations (and of course, always against one side only).

It has nothing to do with bias, it's only about the disgraceful ways Canadians were winning. Some of the examples are:

1972 Summit Series - their only way to "win" was by injuring the best player in the series without even getting a single player suspended. Imagine the scenes in Canada if Esposito was targeted so badly and deliberately injured

1974 Summit Series - Game 2, Petrov scoring the goal that wouldn't count:

1984 Canada Cup - Classic crease rule violation: https://youtu.be/ubMs4Aws5Ic?t=308

1987 Rendez-vous - Another Canadian player in the crease:

1987 Canada Cup - This is how the championship winning goal looked like: .
Probably the worst of them all. Shame that Gretzky and Lemieux duo was overshadowed by such terrible refereing.

Against the Soviets Canadians patented plays like this: https://youtu.be/rPUwedCyLkA?t=863
No nation was ever more brutal in sports history. Russians were the most talented players, Canadians were the biggest hooligans.