Dear Ken

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't get the love for Trouba. Whenever I see him play, he never wows me in any way, not in offense, defence or physicality. I feel like he is one of the more overrated blueliners in the league.

To me he is the right handed Ryan Suter. One of the things that makes Trouba really good is you can go almost an entire game without noticing him because he is in the right spot making the right play a ton.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't know where the playing bad thing comes from? I'm talking about a roster with little elite talent but a lot of depth that plays well, but would never beat the TBL or another elite contender 4 times in 7 games. If that's the final product of the rebuild, we've messed up. That's what I'm saying.

That kind of roster might make the playoffs one year but probably not several years in a row. What's important to remember is that players can be "depth" at 18, 19, 20 years old and grow into great core pieces eventually. That development can happen even if the team does fluke their way into a playoff spot one year. Players don't stop developing the moment the team makes the playoffs. We are never beating TBL with a bunch of 20 year olds anyway, so the final product of the rebuild is still 5+ years away when we have more players in or near their prime. It's going to suck if we fail to make the playoffs every year until the rebuild is "finished" though.

 

[Goalie guy]

Upcoming draft, or is Jack Hughes and Kappo Kakko not that good anymore? I get so confused when people only use information when it fits whatever narrative they are talking about. 2019 and 2020 UFA.

Nothing is a sure fire bet but if you'd rather take the stance of watching the the world burn, have at it. I'll stick with if they get lucky in the upcoming draft and are able to land Trouba over Florida somehow in 2020 the roster is looking pretty good.

What makes you think we will get a top 3 pick? Now if Stevie comes home and runs things I can see UFA coming here if not I think they will pick other places to play.

 

[Pavels Dog]

What makes you think we will get a top 3 pick? Now if Stevie comes home and runs things I can see UFA coming here if not I think they will pick other places to play.

We are tied 3rd worst in point%. If we end up selling guys like Nyquist/Howard the bottom could fall out even more. Lottery could screw us but a top 3 pick is very realistic at this point.

 

[Goalie guy]

We are tied 3rd worst in point%. If we end up selling guys like Nyquist/Howard the bottom could fall out even more. Lottery could screw us but a top 3 pick is very realistic at this point.

I dont trust the lottery I never win lol.

 

[SCD]

I don't get the love for Trouba. Whenever I see him play, he never wows me in any way, not in offense, defence or physicality. I feel like he is one of the more overrated blueliners in the league.

But he is a home boy.

 

[jkutswings]

Do people just not think Larkin is capable of being a 1C? I keep hearing that we need a 1C, but I feel we already have that. If we are going by just points the kid ranks 31st among all forwards, and he ranks 15th among centers. Kid may never be a Hart Trophy winner, or a top 5 Center, but he appears to be heading into the direction of Top 15 Center in the league. Only 5 teams can have a top 5 center, or less if its a Crosby/Malkin situation.

If we can land a center who is a high end 2C to play under Larkin, I think we are set, and I would bet we land that in this years draft. To me the biggest piece we need is the 1D position. I do think Trouba is coming here once he becomes a UFA, obviously not a sure thing but that is what my gut tells me. If we can land him, keep developing Chowolski/Hronek and just draft one more to 4 or ideally top 2 guy, I think we become a team that is taken seriously.

If Detroit finds another center as good or better than Larkin, cool. But if Larkin is your 1C - and there's a step down to the guy at 2C - I don't think that's enough talent up the middle to win a Cup (without a total freak occurrence like a goalie going Tim Thomas).

 

[Flowah]

Upcoming draft, or is Jack Hughes and Kappo Kakko not that good anymore? I get so confused when people only use information when it fits whatever narrative they are talking about. 2019 and 2020 UFA.

We're not even bottom of the league. Chances are we don't get picks 1 or 2.

It's going to take a great deal of luck. Maybe if we tanked harder last year, this year, and the next couple of years.

Plus even if we did get #1 or #2 and draft one of those guys, we still are down a 1D. Not exactly easy to find.

 

[Flowah]

Do people just not think Larkin is capable of being a 1C? I keep hearing that we need a 1C, but I feel we already have that. If we are going by just points the kid ranks 31st among all forwards, and he ranks 15th among centers. Kid may never be a Hart Trophy winner, or a top 5 Center, but he appears to be heading into the direction of Top 15 Center in the league. Only 5 teams can have a top 5 center, or less if its a Crosby/Malkin situation.

The Athletic article specifically mentioned that most contenders have 2 1Cs. We have a single *borderline elite* 1C. Not even actually elite.

It's not enough.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

We're not even bottom of the league. Chances are we don't get picks 1 or 2.

It's going to take a great deal of luck. Maybe if we tanked harder last year, this year, and the next couple of years.

Plus even if we did get #1 or #2 and draft one of those guys, we still are down a 1D. Not exactly easy to find.

It's a lot easier to pitch Trouba in 2020 if our number 1 pick hits the ground running in the 2019.

I actually don't think if we go out and get a guy we know can anchor a lot of minutes and slot guys correctly that we have massive problems. Cholowski and Hronek look like middle pairing guys at worst here hopefully as soon as next season. Lindstrom is sucking up almost 20 minutes a night on a top pairing in Sweden. McIsaac is making important strides. Kontkansalo looks like a nice stay at home bottom pairing a lot of the time I see him. Vili has offensive upside. But you insert a big dog above these guys and even when some bust I think our D-core isn't all that bad in two or three years. It is about finding a guy to slot them correctly. I understand the concern but there are options in the pipeline and we have a few more years to put a couple other answers in there. DK should be in a lower role as these guys progress around him.

Plus I think we have to spin one of our wingers off for a #4 or #5 at some point if we need to shortly. Yeah you cannot hope to get one when you enter those negotiations desperate, so we will see. I am actually happy with some of the options. We need to develop them a heck of a lot better than the last generation of guys so yeah there is apprehension. However, I think we have some solid pieces so some of the doom and gloom here is that we need to give it a little more time to see what we have as well. I like some of these guys, but yeah I liked Smith, Ouellet and others as well. So we shall see. But we might have significant answers in house. Pitching Trouba on coming home and being the star of that group and the big step forward as a team is a better sell. The 2019 first rounder and the development of what we have in house will be important to that.

 

[Frk It]

Right now we have more questions than answers, going to have to wait to see how everything plays out.

 

[Frk It]

Do people just not think Larkin is capable of being a 1C? I keep hearing that we need a 1C, but I feel we already have that. If we are going by just points the kid ranks 31st among all forwards, and he ranks 15th among centers. Kid may never be a Hart Trophy winner, or a top 5 Center, but he appears to be heading into the direction of Top 15 Center in the league. Only 5 teams can have a top 5 center, or less if its a Crosby/Malkin situation.

If we can land a center who is a high end 2C to play under Larkin, I think we are set, and I would bet we land that in this years draft. To me the biggest piece we need is the 1D position. I do think Trouba is coming here once he becomes a UFA, obviously not a sure thing but that is what my gut tells me. If we can land him, keep developing Chowolski/Hronek and just draft one more to 4 or ideally top 2 guy, I think we become a team that is taken seriously.

All I will say is when you are building a contender you want to have a 2C that would be a 1C on some teams, and a 3C that would be a 2C on a bunch of teams.

Think of Stamkos/Point, Crosby/Malkin, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, etc.

Larkin is great. But if you could slot him as your 2C or 1B to someone like Hughes/Dach/Cozens that’s (part of) how you get yourself from rebuilding to contention... IMO

If you look at it from this perspective, it’s not a slight or anything like that.

 

[kliq]

The Athletic article specifically mentioned that most contenders have 2 1Cs. We have a single *borderline elite* 1C. Not even actually elite.

It's not enough.

Which contenders other then Pittsburgh, Washington and maybe TB have two 1C's? You can argue that when Chicago won their cups they didnt even have one. LA had Kopitar, who else? Boston...they had Bergeron, who else? Who did Vegas have last year? Sounds to be like people are taking three outlier teams and making them sound like the norm.

 

[kliq]

All I will say is when you are building a contender you want to have a 2C that would be a 1C on some teams, and a 3C that would be a 2C on a bunch of teams.

Think of Stamkos/Point, Crosby/Malkin, Backstrom/Kuznetsov, etc.

Larkin is great. But if you could slot him as your 2C or 1B to someone like Hughes/Dach/Cozens that’s (part of) how you get yourself from rebuilding to contention... IMO

If you look at it from this perspective, it’s not a slight or anything like that.

I get where you are coming from, but Larkin is 22 and getting better every single year by significant margins. If we can draft someone who is a high end 2C, I think Larkin can pull his weight as a 1C.

Look at Washington, Backstrom and Kuznetsov are great, but they are not Crosby/Malkin. I dont think many would call them "elite". I'm not even saying Larkin is par with those two, but in 2-3 years I think he can definitely be at their level.

 

[kliq]

If Detroit finds another center as good or better than Larkin, cool. But if Larkin is your 1C - and there's a step down to the guy at 2C - I don't think that's enough talent up the middle to win a Cup (without a total freak occurrence like a goalie going Tim Thomas).

Sure, I agree with this. If Larkin is our 1C, our 2C has to be damn good, probably better then 99% of the 2C's out there.

 

[Shaman464]

Which contenders other then Pittsburgh, Washington and maybe TB have two 1C's? You can argue that when Chicago won their cups they didnt even have one. LA had Kopitar, who else? Boston...they had Bergeron, who else? Who did Vegas have last year? Sounds to be like people are taking three outlier teams and making them sound like the norm.

Toronto?

 

[jkutswings]

Which contenders other then Pittsburgh, Washington and maybe TB have two 1C's? You can argue that when Chicago won their cups they didnt even have one. LA had Kopitar, who else? Boston...they had Bergeron, who else? Who did Vegas have last year? Sounds to be like people are taking three outlier teams and making them sound like the norm.

It's about reaching an overall abundance of talent. Pittsburgh didn't have the greatest defense, but had some good wingers to compliment arguably the best 1-2C in the last 30 years. Washington had tremendous forwards up and down the lineup, with enough goaltending and defense to make it work. Chicago had LA each had a different mix of each aspect, but were clearly one of the best teams in their championship years.

There's no one way to skin a cat, but the sum total needs to add up to be better than most (and then still catch some breaks, obviously).

 

[Frk It]

I get where you are coming from, but Larkin is 22 and getting better every single year by significant margins. If we can draft someone who is a high end 2C, I think Larkin can pull his weight as a 1C.

Look at Washington, Backstrom and Kuznetsov are great, but they are not Crosby/Malkin. I dont think many would call them "elite". I'm not even saying Larkin is par with those two, but in 2-3 years I think he can definitely be at their level.

Backstrom has been criminally underrated his whole career, but I get your point.

It’s a little hard to have a contender mindset in the middle of rebuilding, so I just wanted to look at that through a different lens.

I mean hell, even look at the last time WE were a contender. We had Datsyuk/Z/Filppula. We didn’t often have them center 3 separate lines but if we did you’d have 1 guy who is a 1st line center on any other team, a 2nd line center that’s the same thing, and then a 3rd line center that a bunch of teams thought was a 2nd line center when he hit free agency.

I think we have a great foundation with Larkin + Veleno, and I don’t want to belittle Larkin, but you want to have an embarrassment of riches down the middle.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Which contenders other then Pittsburgh, Washington and maybe TB have two 1C's? You can argue that when Chicago won their cups they didnt even have one. LA had Kopitar, who else? Boston...they had Bergeron, who else? Who did Vegas have last year? Sounds to be like people are taking three outlier teams and making them sound like the norm.

Huh? LA had Kopitar and Carter, Boston had Bergeron and Krejci (23 points and 26 points in their 2 final appearances), and Chicago had Kane driving the play from his own line. The only outlier is Chicago with Kane, a franchise, HHOF level player, assuming the role of dictating play from the wing.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Which contenders other then Pittsburgh, Washington and maybe TB have two 1C's? You can argue that when Chicago won their cups they didnt even have one. LA had Kopitar, who else? Boston...they had Bergeron, who else? Who did Vegas have last year? Sounds to be like people are taking three outlier teams and making them sound like the norm.

Gold medalist and maybe borderline HHOF by the time he hangs them up though his current decline is harming that in Jeff Carter is absolutely another #1C.... Bergeron had Krejci who is the borderline 1C territory and big time playoff performer. Most teams outside of Chicago have had a one two punch. Kane plays the center role a lot in the offensive zone and always has ala Kariya.

But I think we are building a Boston or Winnipeg style model in terms of big and mean. We will see. I think the 2019 draft pick is likely a #1C at least of the good enough variety with Larkin to be that answer down the middle. We have that opportunity more than likely this year. Hughes/Dach/Cozens/Turcotte realistically we are getting a shot at one of these guys at this point. They can all turn into this caliber of player as can Zegras in my opinion.

 

[Fear]

Trouba is not a 1D, or he wouldn't be expendable in Winnipeg.

 

[TatarTangle]

What makes you think we will get a top 3 pick? Now if Stevie comes home and runs things I can see UFA coming here if not I think they will pick other places to play.

Nothing other than wishful thinking which is why I said if they get lucky with the draft.

I agree with you that Yzerman is a yuge pull for potential FAs

 

[kliq]

It's about reaching an overall abundance of talent. Pittsburgh didn't have the greatest defense, but had some good wingers to compliment arguably the best 1-2C in the last 30 years. Washington had tremendous forwards up and down the lineup, with enough goaltending and defense to make it work. Chicago had LA each had a different mix of each aspect, but were clearly one of the best teams in their championship years.

There's no one way to skin a cat, but the sum total needs to add up to be better than most (and then still catch some breaks, obviously).

100% agree, very well said. This is the point I am trying to make, I just think you are doing it better. Some people are trying to make it sound like if you don't have two elite or two 1C's you cannot win a cup, and my point is that if Larkin can become a top 10 Center in this league, and we can acquire another who is a top 30 center, as long as we put other pieces around them I think that's enough.

I think some get too caught up in the Pittsburgh model which is an outlier.

 

[kliq]

Toronto?

I said contenders

Huh? LA had Kopitar and Carter, Boston had Bergeron and Krejci (23 points and 26 points in their 2 final appearances), and Chicago had Kane driving the play from his own line. The only outlier is Chicago with Kane, a franchise, HHOF level player, assuming the role of dictating play from the wing.

Krejci and Carter are great players, but I'm not sure I would consider them 1C's.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Yep, it's been obvious for over 6 years that Holland is totally lost. Only people who haven't been paying attention or have a man crush on Holland wouldn't realize this is the case. I don't expect Holland to do much - it is his M.O. - other than sign a bunch of guys to awful contacts. It's been his sole move as the Wings have gone from being one of the best teams in the league to the absolute worst over the past two seasons.

I'd love to see him move up or on before the draft and let Stevie truly rebuild the franchise. Holland's retool/rebuild is a total sham. Time to move on and if you can get one of the top GMs in the league who will be hungry to bring the Cup back to Detroit you have to move NOW. Time to bring Stevie back to run the Red Wings. Holland already blocked him once and look at the results for Detroit and Tampa. Don't let Holland screw this up a second time, you probably won't get a third chance.

Since Mr. Illitch’s passing I actually have agreed on almost everything the Wings have done. The only things I’m iffy on was the 2017 draft and being unable to trade Green, but that was a low probability bad luck outcome.