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Dead Thing

Registered User
Jun 24, 2018
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Being 15 pts. out of a playoff spot and only 2 pts. ahead of last place overall, it is obvious that, barring a magical 10 game winning streak, the playoffs are out of the picture. So what to do with our upcoming UFAs?

Nyquist: On pace for a career year(amazing how often this happens when a player is playing for his next contract). Would only waive NTC for a move to a legitimate Cup contender. Possible destinations include Nashville/Pitt/TB/Toronto/Wash. Return would be a 1st. Please do NOT re-sign Gus in the off season as we will need that cap space to pay AA, Bert and Mantha after next season not to mention that eventual additions of Zadina, Veleno, Bergrren and whatever bodies that we get in the next draft or 2.

Howard: Having a decent year given the injury riddled defense corps he has been playing behind. Possible destinations include Calgary/Colorado/Edmonton/S.J./Vegas. Return would likely be a 2nd and/or prospect. Open to bringing him back for 2 yrs(max) in off season.

Jensen: Given that he was a healthy scratch on opening night(even with Green on I.R.), he has now played the following 48 games. Averaging over 20 minutes pre game with a decent +/- of -3. Would be a depth move with a return of a late 2nd or a 3rd. Would be open to re-signing him in the off season.

Kronwall: Surprised to read that he would be open to a possible move. Obviously it would only be to a legitimate Cup contender as a third pair. Barring a bidding war, return would be a 3rd. Can't see him playing next year. Question-If he does get moved and wants to retire as a Wing, can he be resigned on a 1 yr. deal and then announce his retirement after 1 game??

Vanek: Given that he supposedly insisted that he get a NTC, not sure that he would agree to a move. That being said, the lure of winning a Cup has changed minds before. Would take any pick in return. Do NOT re-sign him in the off season.

Witkowski: Would be a pure depth move as he can play both forward and defense. Return likely a 6th or 7th..

On July 1st,unlikely that any of the major upcoming UFAs(Bobrovski/Stone/Karlsson/Duchene/Panarin) would consider the Wings as a destination and I would prefer that we keep open the roster spots to give a chance to our youngsters in our pipeline.

Flame away
 
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Dead Thing said:
I would prefer that we keep open the roster spots to give a chance to our youngsters in our pipeline.

Flame away
Still?

We already have too much room, not enough quality.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
13,819
1,751
In the Garage
There is no way this team would have been a playoff team. And in the last ten years Holland has been one of the worst GMs in the league. They have gone from a contender to a bottom 5 team in the most predictable fashion. It’s not like this was some freak accident, Holland’s want to rebuild on the fly, and stopgaping put Detoit in this position.
Yep, it's been obvious for over 6 years that Holland is totally lost. Only people who haven't been paying attention or have a man crush on Holland wouldn't realize this is the case. I don't expect Holland to do much - it is his M.O. - other than sign a bunch of guys to awful contacts. It's been his sole move as the Wings have gone from being one of the best teams in the league to the absolute worst over the past two seasons.

I'd love to see him move up or on before the draft and let Stevie truly rebuild the franchise. Holland's retool/rebuild is a total sham. Time to move on and if you can get one of the top GMs in the league who will be hungry to bring the Cup back to Detroit you have to move NOW. Time to bring Stevie back to run the Red Wings. Holland already blocked him once and look at the results for Detroit and Tampa. Don't let Holland screw this up a second time, you probably won't get a third chance.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,853
8,578
I will be very happy when Ken Holland is no longer the general manager of the Wings. But I can still acknowledge that over the last year or two he's been far from clueless, with good moves both at the deadline and in the draft.

It's ok to be "both and" instead of "either or". Most things in life are somewhere in between the ends of the spectrum.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
4,453
500
Detroit
Team isn't that far off from a true playoff team; #1C and #1D. Goalie I feel isn't as difficult to correct, unless you're Philly :laugh: Plenty of depth and middle 6 / 4 talent. This years draft will help with one of the two, hopefully. And maybe they get Trouba in 2020. All of a sudden, not looking too bad.

But per usual for this board, Holland isn't as bad as people will tell you and he hasn't done as good as other people will tell you.

I think it's safe to say Holland, at the very least, will be leaving Yzerman a decent building block to work with

- Just some dude with NHL 17 Be a GM experience.
 
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Spitfire11

Registered User
Jan 17, 2003
5,048
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Team isn't that far off from a true playoff team; #1C and #1D. Goalie I feel isn't as difficult to correct, unless you're Philly :laugh: Plenty of depth and middle 6 / 4 talent. This years draft will help with one of the two, hopefully. And maybe they get Trouba in 2020. All of a sudden, not looking too bad.

But per usual for this board, Holland isn't as bad as people will tell you and he hasn't done as good as other people will tell you.

I think it's safe to say Holland, at the very least, will be leaving Yzerman a decent building block to work with

- Just some dude with NHL 17 Be a GM experience.

All you say is true, if they can hit big on a #1C with their top pick in this year's draft they'll be in good shape. Heck, maybe they manage to sign EK this offseason and they'll be competing as soon as next year.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
1,402
1,877
My two cents on Holland.
It took 20 YEARS for the wheels to fall off of this team. The wheels fell off because ownership wanted to continue a streak of making the playoffs. Holland made trades involving futures to make that happen for ownership. Holland has a boss. Ken Holland answers to that boss and tries to juggle those expectations VS laying a road down to the future.

We missed the playoffs.

Holland began trading everyone. Forget what he has said to the media and look at his actions over the past 3 years. Holland has redeemed himself in my eyes. He has sold assets to stock up picks and drafted well. Nothing suggests this behavior will change. In fact it almost seems calculated, as if he is a professional GM. Like maybe his boss told him to green light a rebuild after we missed the playoffs. And Holland, being an employee of that boss has done his job according to plan.... weird.

With that said, Holland still needs to go but only for Yzerman. If it's not The Captain at the helm I would want Holland.

Now if I am wrong and Holland goes "full Holland" this off season I'll kindly remind you that I tend to bungle things from time to time.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
Team isn't that far off from a true playoff team; #1C and #1D. Goalie I feel isn't as difficult to correct, unless you're Philly :laugh: Plenty of depth and middle 6 / 4 talent.
But those are the most important, hardest to get pieces. It's a bit like saying my financial status is great, except for no job, no savings, and no assets. The Wings have done the easy part, but they still have the hard part to go. They seem convinced they can rush or even outrightly skip it.

I guess we'll see how that works out for them.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
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Detroit
All you say is true, if they can hit big on a #1C with their top pick in this year's draft they'll be in good shape. Heck, maybe they manage to sign EK this offseason and they'll be competing as soon as next year.
I think Trouba is more realistic. Too much smoke indicating EK is gonna stay in SJ and Trouba definitely wants out of WPG. Anything is possible though, and agree with you
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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There is no way this team would have been a playoff team. And in the last ten years Holland has been one of the worst GMs in the league. They have gone from a contender to a bottom 5 team in the most predictable fashion. It’s not like this was some freak accident, Holland’s want to rebuild on the fly, and stopgaping put Detoit in this position.
So what do you say about GMs for teams like Chicago and LA who have gone from contender to bottom 5 in much shorter time and less predictably? I mean isn't it worse to have a good core at the right age and still suck, than it is to go the predictable path of getting worse as your core ages out and retires?
You have your Floridas and Arizonas who can never get off the ground. You have Carolina and Philly and NJ and Edmonton and even Buffalo(TBD) stuck in perennial rebuilding despite lottery wins and top picks. There's Vancouver in a very similar situation as Detroit. Montreal is something of a mess. Minnesota has been stuck for ages in what this board hates most of all; mediocrity. Ottawa has ownership problems but their GM situation has not been good either. St Louis has become a bad team, looking like they completely failed on what seemed like a good, long cup window.

It seems to me that Holland is deemed more harshly than other because Wings were better than others, for longer than others. But our decline was as you say predictable. And largely unavoidable. Stopgaps may have slowed the demise a bit, staggered it a bit. Caused it? How? Just no. Aging caused it. The gravity of the salary cap caused it. As you can see with teams like LA, Chicago etc. it's something that's extremely difficult to fight against. If Holland has been one of the worst GMs of the last 10 years, at least he has excuses. At least he has cups to show for it. But I guess on a message board that dubs John Chayka a genius, that doesn't really count for much. Here, the GM that makes the most trades while not improving his team even 1% is the best.

They seem convinced they can rush or even outrightly skip it.
They really, really don't seem like that. In fact they are playing the rebuild much more patiently than the fans, and much more patiently than most teams. There hasn't been a single decision made for several years that has indicated a desire to "skip" any part of rebuilding. Stocking up on draft picks at a higher rate than any other team, and gaining a higher and higher draft position is not signs that they are trying to rush things.
 
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TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
4,453
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Detroit
But those are the most important, hardest to get pieces. It's a bit like saying my financial status is great, except for no job, no savings, and no assets. The Wings have done the easy part, but they still have the hard part to go. They seem convinced they can rush or even outrightly skip it.

I guess we'll see how that works out for them.
Well first I'm not exactly going into this thinking you don't have an extremely biased opinion considering the user name.

But, are you saying Larkin, Mantha, AA, Cholowski, Hronek, Zadina, Bertuzzi, Veleno, Rasmussen, Lindstrom, etc etc etc aren't assets or savings?

I'd argue the Red Wings may have done the hardest part, be bad enough to get a decent shot at #1 overall but still be competitive, relatively speaking. And that #1 overall could be Kakko or Hughes.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
Well first I'm not exactly going into this thinking you don't have an extremely biased opinion considering the user name.

But, are you saying Larkin, Mantha, AA, Cholowski, Hronek, Zadina, Bertuzzi, Veleno, Rasmussen, Lindstrom, etc etc etc aren't assets or savings?

I'd argue the Red Wings may have done the hardest part, be bad enough to get a decent shot at #1 overall but still be competitive, relatively speaking. And that #1 overall could be Kakko or Hughes.
Other than Larkin, I wouldn't characterize any of those players as #1 options at their position. Most of those forwards will never be legitimate top line scorers, and none of those defensemen are going to be legitimate top pairing defensemen. And obviously none are a #1 goalie, at least that we know of...

My point is, top line forwards, top pairing defensemen, and #1 goalie are the absolute most important players on a team. They're much more important than the depth guys, which is what Detroit has. So having the depth guys but lacking the elite ones is not anything to get too fired up about.

It's great that they have Larkin. That's a major building block. It's a step in the right direction that the Wings are going to have a top 5 pick this year. But the organization is already talking about when they're going to stop stockpiling draft picks, how they're looking to jumpstart the rebuild to make it take less time, and when they're going to make the playoffs again, and they only have one great piece. That's not enough.

And it's certainly not enough to project that a current prospect will leapfrog their current status and become a star. That's not analysis, that's wishing. There's a lot of that going around in the Wings fanbase right now. "Could" is not enough.
 
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TatarTangle

Registered User
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Other than Larkin, I wouldn't characterize any of those players as #1 options at their position. Most of those forwards will never be legitimate top line scorers, and none of those defensemen are going to be legitimate top pairing defensemen. And obviously none are a #1 goalie, at least that we know of...

My point is, top line forwards, top pairing defensemen, and #1 goalie are the absolute most important players on a team. They're much more important than the depth guys, which is what Detroit has. So having the depth guys but lacking the elite ones is not anything to get too fired up about.

It's great that they have Larkin. That's a major building block. It's a step in the right direction that the Wings are going to have a top 5 pick this year. But the organization is already talking about when they're going to stop stockpiling draft picks, how they're looking to jumpstart the rebuild to make it take less time, and when they're going to make the playoffs again, and they only have one great piece. That's not enough.

And it's certainly not enough to project that a current prospect will leapfrog their current status and become a star. That's not analysis, that's wishing. There's a lot of that going around in the Wings fanbase right now. "Could" is not enough.
I wouldn't either, you are just doing a shit load of assuming of what I, and the fan base, is thinking. Never good for a conversation. Much of your post is what my original post is about, so not much to be said. Between the upcoming draft and the 2019 and 2020 UFA pool, no reason to be completely pessimistic they can't get a #1C and #1D.

But because you don't believe any of those names are assests tells me I don't really need to continue. Those names most likely will not be stars but will have a role to play in the future success of the team.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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It's great that they have Larkin. That's a major building block. It's a step in the right direction that the Wings are going to have a top 5 pick this year. But the organization is already talking about when they're going to stop stockpiling draft picks, how they're looking to jumpstart the rebuild to make it take less time, and when they're going to make the playoffs again, and they only have one great piece. That's not enough.
They're not really, that's basically you reading your bias into their words. They can't talk about how they hope they'll be way out of the playoffs for several years so they can stockpile draft picks for many years. They also can't be like you and talk about their prospects as if no one has a chance in hell of becoming anything of value.
They won't make the playoffs with just one great piece so your fears are completely unjustified. IF, and only if, they can add more great pieces or more great pieces emerge from within will they challenge for a playoff spot.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
They won't make the playoffs with just one great piece so your fears are completely unjustified. IF, and only if, they can add more great pieces or more great pieces emerge from within will they challenge for a playoff spot.
I hate to be that guy, but there are 8th seeds every year with just one great piece. Montreal is a great example this year.

Vancouver would be in that situation. Minnesota actually has zero great pieces, so that's interesting.

And as for the Wings not getting ready to make the playoffs, I made another post you should read.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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I hate to be that guy, but there are 8th seeds every year with just one great piece. Montreal is a great example this year.

Vancouver would be in that situation. Minnesota actually has zero great pieces, so that's interesting.

And as for the Wings not getting ready to make the playoffs, I made another post you should read.
Minny has Suter and Parise. Vancouver has Pettersson and Boeser and Horvat. Montreal has Price and Domi has been pretty great. Sure things can happen, but we're not going to just randomly make the playoffs while everyone except Larkin is playing bad. Even if we did it doesn't mean the rebuild is over. Should Holland be blamed if the team flukes together some kind of ridiculous season where they make the playoffs with a terrible roster that has only one great piece? I guess he should be fired because the power of his -hope- carried the team into the top 8.
 
Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
Sure things can happen, but we're not going to just randomly make the playoffs while everyone except Larkin is playing bad. Even if we did it doesn't mean the rebuild is over.
I don't know where the playing bad thing comes from? I'm talking about a roster with little elite talent but a lot of depth that plays well, but would never beat the TBL or another elite contender 4 times in 7 games. If that's the final product of the rebuild, we've messed up. That's what I'm saying.
 

TatarTangle

Registered User
Sep 28, 2011
4,453
500
Detroit
So only 2 of the hardest things to find... But not that far away. Okay.
Upcoming draft, or is Jack Hughes and Kappo Kakko not that good anymore? I get so confused when people only use information when it fits whatever narrative they are talking about. 2019 and 2020 UFA.

Nothing is a sure fire bet but if you'd rather take the stance of watching the the world burn, have at it. I'll stick with if they get lucky in the upcoming draft and are able to land Trouba over Florida somehow in 2020 the roster is looking pretty good.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
40,957
11,577
Ft. Myers, FL
Ideally we are trending back up after next year. So those are your last two big cracks at high level picks in my opinion, with this year hopefully top 5 and the year after top 10 in my opinion. But at that point you should be getting ready to compete. Hopefully we are adding a Trouba to slot some guys correctly on the back-end. We have our high caliber 1-2 punch down the middle and the complimentary pieces are ready to start growing and fighting for the playoffs.

That might happen, that would really be ideal as a bunch of salary will come off the books. Larsson or Petruzelli are maybe getting ready to challenge. Trouba as our one big add, but heck I could see two out of house guys if we can swing it. We should have that flexibility and our bad contracts feed the RFA bridge deals. It isn't always easy, a compliance buyout while settling the CBA would do wonders (later Gator...) for this team. But I don't think Holland has harmed this team. He has done a pretty good job since actually entering the rebuild. If he isn't leaving for Seattle, I hope he stays on as an advisor for Yzerman. He is a smart man that Yzerman trusts that wouldn't be bad. We will see, currently he has had a pretty good 18 months of actually building a hockey team and making the right actions often. The foundation pieces are back in the ground and they have a couple cracks at a few more likely, but hopefully only a couple more. Otherwise it won't be the Larkin core that does the winning in my opinion.
 

kliq

Registered User
Dec 17, 2017
2,727
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Do people just not think Larkin is capable of being a 1C? I keep hearing that we need a 1C, but I feel we already have that. If we are going by just points the kid ranks 31st among all forwards, and he ranks 15th among centers. Kid may never be a Hart Trophy winner, or a top 5 Center, but he appears to be heading into the direction of Top 15 Center in the league. Only 5 teams can have a top 5 center, or less if its a Crosby/Malkin situation.

If we can land a center who is a high end 2C to play under Larkin, I think we are set, and I would bet we land that in this years draft. To me the biggest piece we need is the 1D position. I do think Trouba is coming here once he becomes a UFA, obviously not a sure thing but that is what my gut tells me. If we can land him, keep developing Chowolski/Hronek and just draft one more to 4 or ideally top 2 guy, I think we become a team that is taken seriously.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,767
10,309
Team isn't that far off from a true playoff team; #1C and #1D. Goalie I feel isn't as difficult to correct, unless you're Philly :laugh: Plenty of depth and middle 6 / 4 talent. This years draft will help with one of the two, hopefully. And maybe they get Trouba in 2020. All of a sudden, not looking too bad.

But per usual for this board, Holland isn't as bad as people will tell you and he hasn't done as good as other people will tell you.

I think it's safe to say Holland, at the very least, will be leaving Yzerman a decent building block to work with

- Just some dude with NHL 17 Be a GM experience.

We already have a #1C in Larkin. Pt a game playing without anyone else helping drive the offensive bus and playing well defensively is definitely a #1C. People on here way underrate how good Larkin has become this season.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,767
10,309
Ideally we are trending back up after next year. So those are your last two big cracks at high level picks in my opinion, with this year hopefully top 5 and the year after top 10 in my opinion. But at that point you should be getting ready to compete. Hopefully we are adding a Trouba to slot some guys correctly on the back-end. We have our high caliber 1-2 punch down the middle and the complimentary pieces are ready to start growing and fighting for the playoffs.

That might happen, that would really be ideal as a bunch of salary will come off the books. Larsson or Petruzelli are maybe getting ready to challenge. Trouba as our one big add, but heck I could see two out of house guys if we can swing it. We should have that flexibility and our bad contracts feed the RFA bridge deals. It isn't always easy, a compliance buyout while settling the CBA would do wonders (later Gator...) for this team. But I don't think Holland has harmed this team. He has done a pretty good job since actually entering the rebuild. If he isn't leaving for Seattle, I hope he stays on as an advisor for Yzerman. He is a smart man that Yzerman trusts that wouldn't be bad. We will see, currently he has had a pretty good 18 months of actually building a hockey team and making the right actions often. The foundation pieces are back in the ground and they have a couple cracks at a few more likely, but hopefully only a couple more. Otherwise it won't be the Larkin core that does the winning in my opinion.

I don't get the love for Trouba. Whenever I see him play, he never wows me in any way, not in offense, defence or physicality. I feel like he is one of the more overrated blueliners in the league.
 

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