Dawes vs. Parise

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Jason MacIsaac

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Moskau said:
That's what I'm saying.

Jason and many NJD fans have already have the kid pegged as a Selke, Hart, Conn Smythe, Art Ross winner in 4-5 years.
Where the hell did I say he would win all that. Stop sticking words in your mouth becuse you will choke on them and I will be the first to laugh at you. I never said Parise would ever be any more then a 60-70 point two way center. Unless you find a quote of me saying that I would advice you to delete that post.
 
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Jason MacIsaac

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Rabid Ranger said:
A fair assessment, although I would be interested in what you think will hold him back at the NHL level. If it's size, I don't think you truly appreciate the kind of player he is.
There is a difference between not appreciate and just not knowing nor wanting to know.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Matt MacInnis said:
No, I don't think its really purely size. There are short players in the NHL right now which are able to be offensive players, although obviously the odds of those types of prospects making it aren't as great as a more typically sized person.

Frankly I just don't think Parise has the skill set to be a top line player. He plays hard, and he does have good skills for sure, but he doesn't have the mind boggling skills in my opinion to be an impact player at that size (not that he's really small, he's less than average but he's not a 'small' player to me).

Personally I think Parise's permanent upside is as a 2nd line player, I'm just not as enamoured by his play as most people are. And I recognize that. I realize that most people strongly disagree with me, and many think he's a close to sure thing first rounder, and all that. I'm just in the minority.

Anyhow, my personal projection for Parise is a slightly below average second liner. We'll see what happens with him though, chances are the majority is right and I'm wrong.
If you seen Parise you would know he has some of the better hockey sense and playmaking ability in the whole draft. If you listened to college followers or any college article you would know he dominate the league while playing solid defense.
 
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Jason MacIsaac

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Vlad The Impaler said:
The secret is organizational, particularly the farming.

David Conte gets way too much credit, the development of all these players does not get enough, nor does the team system.

The sum of all the parts in the Devils organization is also far, far superior to each parts. Observe how they have often turned players who weren't even drafted by them into good contributors. Like that big goof-slacker Arnott, whom they turned into a playoffs hero.

They don't draft too many superstars over there, and I notice people often expect stars out of the Devils. They draft only decently, and turn guys into team players.

That's what I mean by overrated.

I think Parise is their best pick in a long time and I think they make their fair share of "WTF is Conte smoking?" picks.
What organization doesn't have those picks.......every team misses a pick or two. NJ seems to make the best of what they have better then any other team in the NHL. You can say it is the organization that develops the players but its Conte that drafts the players wanting and willing to get better.
 

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JasonMacIsaac said:
What organization doesn't have those picks.......every team misses a pick or two. NJ seems to make the best of what they have better then any other team in the NHL. You can say it is the organization that develops the players but its Conte that drafts the players wanting and willing to get better.

5 posts later and you're still a know nothing homer
 

Jason MacIsaac

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BHLCommish said:
5 posts later and you're still a know nothing homer
Who are you? From what I gather you are a nobody, all you do is make 2 word posts and contribute nothing. Enlighting me on your BHL knowledge where potential means nothing and stats mean everything. I have forgotten more then you will ever know...punk.
 
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Mr.Brownov*

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Dawes was Canada's best player, I havent heard otherwise until now.
A.Stewart was "THE MAN" amongst boys.I also forgot about J.Carter though,who also had a spectacular showing.I placed N.Dawes right behind them for that tourney.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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JasonMacIsaac said:
I woul advise you to shut your mouth and listen to college followers. They seen him alot more then you have and have different views. I guess your two game assessment will do though....

I don't get your animosity towards Matt. You're saying you never predicted Parise would be anything more than a 60-70 point player. Matt doesn't seem to have an opinion that is vastly different from yours.
 

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I like both players, their both good, Dawes is a better scorer but I think Parise will have a bigger impact at the NHL level.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Vlad The Impaler said:
I don't get your animosity towards Matt. You're saying you never predicted Parise would be anything more than a 60-70 point player. Matt doesn't seem to have an opinion that is vastly different from yours.
I don't like being pegged in with the group that say he will win MVP, Conn Smyth, Norris and the Vezina with one skate, no socks and a plastic hockey stick. I often get lumped in that group by defending the devils players rather then letting comments slip by. He used my name in his post which I really don't like.
 

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Mr.Brownov said:
J M I said it all.He can pump in the goals.And IMO,Nigel wasn't Canada's best player.I think A.Stewart was.

I'll disagree with that.

IMO, while Stewart played well, both his linemates (Dawes & Richards) were better.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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John Flyers Fan said:
I'll disagree with that.

IMO, while Stewart played well, both his linemates (Dawes & Richards) were better.
I agree, Stewart is alot like Friesen. I don't see him ever being the smartest player on the ice. Getting to play with Richards who is extremely quick and smart on the ice helped Stewart alot. Dawes i just a goal scorer, he knows where to be in the offensive zone.
 

BHLCommish

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JasonMacIsaac said:
Who are you? From what I gather you are a nobody, all you do is make 2 word posts and contribute nothing. Enlighting me on your BHL knowledge where potential means nothing and stats mean everything. I have forgotten more then you will ever know...punk.

Enlighting you? good one...What are you even talking about? You just told another poster not to put words in your mouth, in your aggressive, ignorant, homeristic tone. Stats mean everything, you're pretty good at using the quote button. I enjoy reading these forums but when a poster is blatanly attacked and called incredible for no apparent reason, and you fill the forums with 5 garbage posts in a row ridiculing yourself by defending something with unfounded reasons that no one is attacking, it, frankly, gets really rather annoying. But ah that's what the Ignore button is for!
 

Vlad The Impaler

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JasonMacIsaac said:
I don't like being pegged in with the group that say he will win MVP, Conn Smyth, Norris and the Vezina with one skate, no socks and a plastic hockey stick. I often get lumped in that group by defending the devils players rather then letting comments slip by. He used my name in his post which I really don't like.

I think you're confusing Matt with Moskau.
 

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JasonMacIsaac said:
I woul advise you to shut your mouth and listen to college followers. They seen him alot more then you have and have different views. I guess your two game assessment will do though....
What a homer/disgrace. Because the guy doesnt say your boy is going to be all world, you go off the deep end. But he does say he's going to be an NHL'r which is a frickin compliment.
I got news for ya Bud. Parise was picked in the latter half of the 1st round & he is no lead pipe cinch to be an NHL'r (though he probably will be) , never mind an impact player. God almighty, why do you think there is no room for discussion that your boy is/is not a top 10-15 prospect when he was picked outside the top 15 spot all of a year ago after he was viewed by NHL scouts/personnel guys who have seen him play alot more than some fanboy. On top of that, he is competing against another 2-3 years worth of prospects, which obviously makes him drop furthur down in the overall prospect list versus his draft year, where he was picked outside the #15 spot (picked #17 overall).
Its not all that unreasonable to think he is outside a #15 prospect ,& at the very least , open to sane discussion & not some vitriolic diatribe, dont ya think?
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Sammy said:
What a homer/disgrace. Because the guy doesnt say your boy is going to be all world, you go off the deep end. But he does say he's going to be an NHL'r which is a frickin compliment.
I got news for ya Bud. Parise was picked in the latter half of the 1st round & he is no lead pipe cinch to be an NHL'r (though he probably will be) , never mind an impact player. God almighty, why do you think there is no room for discussion that your boy is/is not a top 10-15 prospect when he was picked outside the top 15 spot all of a year ago after he was viewed by NHL scouts/personnel guys who have seen him play alot more than some fanboy. On top of that, he is competing against another 2-3 years worth of prospects, which obviously makes him drop furthur down in the overall prospect list versus his draft year, where he was picked outside the #15 spot (picked #17 overall).
Its not all that unreasonable to think he is outside a #15 prospect ,& at the very least , open to sane discussion & not some vitriolic diatribe, dont ya think?
I didn't mean to go off the deep end on Matt...I confused him for Moskau.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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BHLCommish said:
Enlighting you? good one...What are you even talking about? You just told another poster not to put words in your mouth, in your aggressive, ignorant, homeristic tone. Stats mean everything, you're pretty good at using the quote button. I enjoy reading these forums but when a poster is blatanly attacked and called incredible for no apparent reason, and you fill the forums with 5 garbage posts in a row ridiculing yourself by defending something with unfounded reasons that no one is attacking, it, frankly, gets really rather annoying. But ah that's what the Ignore button is for!
I was agressive because for some odd reason I thought it was Matt who labeled me in the group that thinks Parise will be all world which isn't true. I think he will be a solid 60-70 point 1st/2nd line center with goo defensive awareness.
 

ZombieMatt

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JasonMacIsaac said:
I was agressive because for some odd reason I thought it was Matt who labeled me in the group that thinks Parise will be all world which isn't true. I think he will be a solid 60-70 point 1st/2nd line center with goo defensive awareness.

Which if you read my posts about Parise more carefully (and I see that you have edited the original which I appreciate), you would see that isn't all THAT far off from what I think he will be. Its 10-20 points more than I personally see him getting on a constant basis, but therein lies the difference of opinion.

One thing that I think will hurt Parise's point total is the fact that he plays on NJ. It's not impossible for Devils to score lots of points, and that has been demonstrated with Elias being in the top 10 in league scoring (and others performing well), but I think there is a chance that the Devils style of play won't be condusive to Parise's style of play. It's not as if he's in an organization like Atlanta which is just going to turn him loose and see how big of numbers he can put up.

But basically I just don't think that his entire package is first line material. And like I said earlier, I know i'm in the minority, and I'm not trying to sell him short "because he's a Devil" or anything like that. In the games which I've seen Parise play, I straight up don't think he's a top line talent. *shrug* Many people disagree with me and I'm not trying to claim they're wrong. I'm just trying to put a cautious side to the uber hype he's getting.

You said earlier he was one of the top talents in the draft, and I respectfully disagree. I honestly feel that most of the players selected ahead of him were better choices, and actually I would take a few players that were picked AFTER him over Parise as well (Getzlaf most notably). I'm one of few not entirely sold on Parise.

BUT, I'm not saying he's going to be a bust. I do think Parise is one of the most likely to make the NHL because of his great work ethic and because he looks to be able to be defensively competant in the NHL, but I don't see his raw upside as high as many others do.

We will see in 4-5 years. Chances are I'm wrong...I mean, frankly, the majority is usually right.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Matt MacInnis said:
Which if you read my posts about Parise more carefully (and I see that you have edited the original which I appreciate), you would see that isn't all THAT far off from what I think he will be. Its 10-20 points more than I personally see him getting on a constant basis, but therein lies the difference of opinion.

One thing that I think will hurt Parise's point total is the fact that he plays on NJ. It's not impossible for Devils to score lots of points, and that has been demonstrated with Elias being in the top 10 in league scoring (and others performing well), but I think there is a chance that the Devils style of play won't be condusive to Parise's style of play. It's not as if he's in an organization like Atlanta which is just going to turn him loose and see how big of numbers he can put up.

But basically I just don't think that his entire package is first line material. And like I said earlier, I know i'm in the minority, and I'm not trying to sell him short "because he's a Devil" or anything like that. In the games which I've seen Parise play, I straight up don't think he's a top line talent. *shrug* Many people disagree with me and I'm not trying to claim they're wrong. I'm just trying to put a cautious side to the uber hype he's getting.

You said earlier he was one of the top talents in the draft, and I respectfully disagree. I honestly feel that most of the players selected ahead of him were better choices, and actually I would take a few players that were picked AFTER him over Parise as well (Getzlaf most notably). I'm one of few not entirely sold on Parise.

BUT, I'm not saying he's going to be a bust. I do think Parise is one of the most likely to make the NHL because of his great work ethic and because he looks to be able to be defensively competant in the NHL, but I don't see his raw upside as high as many others do.

We will see in 4-5 years. Chances are I'm wrong...I mean, frankly, the majority is usually right.
Don't expect to NJ to be extremely tight for ever. They signed Robinson to a long term contract to basicly take over for Burns when the time comes. Robinson is much more offensive minded while keeping a strict defensive system. We also have a group of prospects who have loads of talent. Suglobov, Parise, Vrana, Foster and Khomutov should all be on the team within 4 years. I wouldn't expect NJ to play a tight tight defensive system with this much spee, scoring power and skill. Its a matter of opinion though.
 

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Vlad The Impaler said:
They don't draft too many superstars over there, and I notice people often expect stars out of the Devils. They draft only decently, and turn guys into team players.

That's what I mean by overrated.

I don't know how you can expect many superstar players to be drafted when there are only few players in each draft class that "could" become superstars, and those players often go early. And when the Devils have had early picks, they only used them to draft the players who are currently the best at the defensemen and goaltender position.

And as far as New Jersey players looking good because of a system, how come many players have gone on to other teams and have done equally as good or better? Arnott is still a good player in Dallas, as is Peter Sykora in Anaheim. Guerin left and became an even better player. Same with Morrison, and Sullivan and Jason Smith. And I am sure there are more guys who fit this mold as New Jersey has alot of original draft picks playing on other NHL teams. I'd say it is less about the system and more about the player. You can't make chicken salad without chicken.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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meehan said:
I don't know how you can expect many superstar players to be drafted when there are only few players in each draft class that "could" become superstars, and those players often go early. And when the Devils have had early picks, they only used them to draft the players who are currently the best at the defensemen and goaltender position.

Well, it was more a figure of speech. I don't expect them to draft golden superstars each and every year or anything. I just think, looking at this draft record there is very little exceptional about it. It's a very good draft record but it doesn't amaze me anymore than a number of teams.

meehan said:
Arnott is still a good player in Dallas, as is Peter Sykora in Anaheim.

Arnott is in the top 10 underachieving players in this league. He was a floater in Edmonton with poor ethic, he went to the Devils where he was shaped up by the organization (and also had the chance to live with Scott Stevens and be humbled by his dedication to the sport) and worked under the team concept.

Petr Sykora is scoring but otherwise a non-factor in Anaheim. He fits right in with Fedorov and other individualistic pricks in Anaheim. The Elias-Arnott-Sykora line in NJ was probably one of the most promising in the whole league. They were downright amazing but all three of them were complaining and moaning at times for various reasons, particularly contracts.

It's not like any three of them have a special attitude and dedication to this sport that Conte zeroed in. They don't. They're really ordinary players mentally. Edmonton didn't want a floating Arnott anymore and NJ saw they wouldn't be able to afford Guerin much longer. Then Arnott came and if I remember well had a miserable time his first year with NJ with a ridiculous number of gaols but they shaped him up thanks to a team concept. And now he's back to floating again now that he is in Dallas despite being the total package. And Sykora scores goals.

meehan said:
Guerin left and became an even better player.

No arguments there, he's been doing better since leaving. He's a good talent, although he has surpassed 70 points in a season only once. He's had two great season back to back but other than that, I've seen better.

meehan said:
Same with Morrison, and Sullivan and Jason Smith.

I'm not as high as others on Morrison, although he's still a very good player and no denying, all three of these players have done relatively well elsewhere. Proof that not everybody who picks good habits will drop them once they leave :D

meehan said:
And I am sure there are more guys who fit this mold as New Jersey has alot of original draft picks playing on other NHL teams.

Sheldon Souray comes to mind. (He was picked by them, right?)

meehan said:
I'd say it is less about the system and more about the player. You can't make chicken salad without chicken.

It's a mix of everything. Talent has to come to the equation, willingness to develop this talent. But the team has to make great decisions too.

I look at their drafts and I am not overly impressed. I think David Conte is a very good scout, but I have to point my finger and laugh when folks see Conte draft Foster and say "wow! what a steal". More like, "bonehead move of the year".

All in all, my position is not to say Conte is not a good scout. But I do think he is overrated based on what people expect out of his picks and what they're saying of him.

I give a lot of credit to this organization at the pro and farm level. I really think it deserves more credit there and less credit in the scouting.

I think they have done a great job of turning players like Richer and Mogilny into more complete players and obtain success with forwards of great but not amazing qualities.

Bobby Holik is a great testament of that. Half of his contract is thanks to his talent, the other half is due to the NJ Devils.

That's why they are one of the best organization of the last decade and have been out of all the top teams one that has had the best payroll. It's because players who are willing to stay there recognize that part of their individual achievements are due to a great team concept, and accept to be paid accordingly. Those who refuse to see that are shipped elsewhere and new players replace them out of the blue, either from trades or from within.
 

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Well, it was more a figure of speech. I don't expect them to draft golden superstars each and every year or anything. I just think, looking at this draft record there is very little exceptional about it. It's a very good draft record but it doesn't amaze me anymore than a number of teams.

Yes, and my point is that when you evaluate drafting, you have to take into account what they have to work with. For the last decade, on average, the Devils have started picking at around pick 25. It's really hard to acquire elite nhl players drafting from that position. As such, you evaluate their drafts by seeing how many players they pick that will eventually play a role on one of their future winning teams, whereby allowing them to shed salary by replacing veterans with young players that could do the same job. Basically, the purpose of the draft for a winning organization like the Devils is not to build a core(as they have already built a core by drafting superstar players in previous drafts) but to replace the spare parts around the core. Since they draft well, they are able to do this, which allows them to keep winning as guys depart via free agency. There are many other teams that don't draft well enough to do this and thus have to spend money on outside help(free agents).



Arnott is in the top 10 underachieving players in this league. He was a floater in Edmonton with poor ethic, he went to the Devils where he was shaped up by the organization (and also had the chance to live with Scott Stevens and be humbled by his dedication to the sport) and worked under the team concept.

Petr Sykora is scoring but otherwise a non-factor in Anaheim. He fits right in with Fedorov and other individualistic pricks in Anaheim. The Elias-Arnott-Sykora line in NJ was probably one of the most promising in the whole league. They were downright amazing but all three of them were complaining and moaning at times for various reasons, particularly contracts.

It's not like any three of them have a special attitude and dedication to this sport that Conte zeroed in. They don't. They're really ordinary players mentally. Edmonton didn't want a floating Arnott anymore and NJ saw they wouldn't be able to afford Guerin much longer. Then Arnott came and if I remember well had a miserable time his first year with NJ with a ridiculous number of gaols but they shaped him up thanks to a team concept. And now he's back to floating again now that he is in Dallas despite being the total package. And Sykora scores goals.

See, I don't know that Arnott and Sykora have changed much since leaving the Devils. Arnott, in his last year with the Devils, was underachieving and thus was traded. He went to Dallas, and from what I have seen of him and from what you hear from Dallas fans, there isn't really much complaint about his play. And statistically speaking, his production isn't much worse in Dallas then it was in NJ. He still scores 20 goals a year and gets around 50 points, just like he did in New Jersey. And as far as Sykora, you are right, he does score goals, just like he did in New Jersey. Sykora was never a prototypical Devil forward, he never was a good defensive player, he never was a gritty player or a playoff warrior(the Devils won the 2000 cup with him in a hospital bed), he was just a guy that could score alot of goals, much like he does in Anaheim. What the Devils saw in these guys was talent, and when their bad attitudes got in the way of them being able to utilize their talent, they shipped them out. The one player they kept from the famous A line has become much better then his linemates(though talent wise he probably has less); mainly because he does have a better attitude.

Sheldon Souray comes to mind. (He was picked by them, right?)

Yeah he was dealt for Malakhov in 2000. Also, guys like Brian Rolston and Alyn McCauley have gone on to become good 2 way hockey players, though unfortunately on other teams. Well, not so much Rolston as he played quite a few seasons with the Devils, though his best were with Boston.

I look at their drafts and I am not overly impressed. I think David Conte is a very good scout, but I have to point my finger and laugh when folks see Conte draft Foster and say "wow! what a steal". More like, "bonehead move of the year".

See, I don't know that it is general consensus to think every player Conte drafts is a future hall of famer. I mean at this years draft the announcers are on record as stating the Devils "aren't perfect", which is the truth, as no organization is perfect when it comes to drafting. Some just do better then others and I feel Conte has done better then most with what he has had to work with(low picks). When he has had high picks, he has drafted great players(Brodeur, Niedermayer, Guerin, Shanahan, Elias). As far as Foster, that was a gamble, everyone knew it was a gamble, and in this case it didn't work. However, I don't buy the general consensus that that was a bad pick. I think it was a decent gamble, and the Devils didn't lose out on a superstar player by taking a risk on Foster. You aren't going to produce many quality NHL players in every draft, but Conte gets alot of them, which is not the case with many other head scouts.

All in all, my position is not to say Conte is not a good scout. But I do think he is overrated based on what people expect out of his picks and what they're saying of him.

Again, I don't see much overhyping of Devil prospects. In fact, I think the Devils in their history have snuck alot of prospects into prominence. I don't think anyone ever expected Elias to be as good as he is. I don't even think Brodeur was regarded very highly in his draft year. But they are great players now, even though at their draft times they weren't thought to be. Even now with Parise, I don't think many people out there think he is a future Art Ross winner. I think most people are logical with their predictions, that he will be a top 6 six forward on a good team. I don't see many threads deeming Travis Zajac the next Mike Modano. I think Conte is quietly very respected for his scouting ability. Hell, I don't even think most NHL fans know who Conte is, or even who the head scout on their favorite team is.

I give a lot of credit to this organization at the pro and farm level. I really think it deserves more credit there and less credit in the scouting.

Again, scouting isn't only drafting prospects. Scouts watch established NHL players too.

I think they have done a great job of turning players like Richer and Mogilny into more complete players and obtain success with forwards of great but not amazing qualities.

Then there are also guys like Doug Gilmour, who seem perfect for Devils hockey, but for whatever reason, never accomplished much there.

Bobby Holik is a great testament of that. Half of his contract is thanks to his talent, the other half is due to the NJ Devils.

I disagree with this. Though not deserving of 9 million a year, Bobby Holik is still every bit as good a player on the Rangers as he was on the Devils. You just don't hear about it because he isn't shadowing the other teams top players in big playoff games anymore. This year he got over 50 points just like he did in his years in New Jersey. He also was one of the few plus players on a very bad team. Watching his game, I think Holik is the same, the team around him is worse.

That's why they are one of the best organization of the last decade and have been out of all the top teams one that has had the best payroll. It's because players who are willing to stay there recognize that part of their individual achievements are due to a great team concept, and accept to be paid accordingly. Those who refuse to see that are shipped elsewhere and new players replace them out of the blue, either from trades or from within.

No arguments with that. That is how all teams in the NHL should be run.
 
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Vlad The Impaler said:
Petr Sykora is scoring but otherwise a non-factor in Anaheim. He fits right in with Fedorov and other individualistic pricks in Anaheim. The Elias-Arnott-Sykora line in NJ was probably one of the most promising in the whole league. They were downright amazing but all three of them were complaining and moaning at times for various reasons, particularly contracts.

It's not like any three of them have a special attitude and dedication to this sport that Conte zeroed in. They don't. They're really ordinary players mentally. Edmonton didn't want a floating Arnott anymore and NJ saw they wouldn't be able to afford Guerin much longer. Then Arnott came and if I remember well had a miserable time his first year with NJ with a ridiculous number of gaols but they shaped him up thanks to a team concept. And now he's back to floating again now that he is in Dallas despite being the total package. And Sykora scores goals.

To say Sykora just scores goals is like saying Scott Stevens just hits people. Sykora is a huge part of the team. He had an off season last year. Obviously, the Ducks did too. When he's doing well, the Ducks tend to do well, too.

Sykora isn't exactly a cheerleader or anything, but it's not just about him all the time. Without him, we don't have our best passer in Vinny Prospal. Severe dehydration is the only thing that's kept him out of the line-up. He's alot more than a guy who just scores goals.

Also, the Anaheim comment makes little sense. Past Fedorov, I don't think there's a single player on the team who is only about himself.
 

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I like Dawes. Good Winnipeg kid. The Rangers stole him in his draft. He's a sniper and needs to be on a top line with a playmaker. He could have some rough roads ahead especially in the AHL where he might have lousy linemates. I just can't see him as a checker. I'd recommend he stay in the WHL as an overager. He'll take a while, but the determination is there. He will make it to the NHL. Just takes a few years.

Parise will probably be 6 feet and 200lbs by the time he's 25, so size isn't a big problem. Just like Dawes he needs time to improve his all around skills and strength. Jersey is lucky to have him and Travis Zajac (another good Winnipeg kid) developing together in the NCAA.
 

ktownhockey

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Mar 29, 2004
1,902
305
Ontario canada
JasonMacIsaac said:
Last I checked defensive play, playmaking, grit, heart and leadership also come into the game. I may be wrong though.

You love Zack Parise alot eh?

why do you stick up for him so much?

I think he's a good player, but you make him sound like an NHL captain next year.
 
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