Book Feature Lion in Winter (by David S. Gordon & Martin C. Harris)

[Martin Harris]

Depends on ones definition of 'Golden'. Yes if defined by medals won at world level and coverage in the media, over welming print based and as you rightly point out in the standard of play in the ENL. But that league was short lived 1935-39, I discount 1939-40 as few teams and all London based. Apart for one season all the teams London based except for Brighton less that 60 miles to the south. Almost no competitive structure for native manned amature teams. And apart from a house league at Wembley no junior development teams.

Now (Covid19 excepted) we have more rinks, bigger overall crowds with not only a UK wide pro league, but below that a nation wide league (except for Scotland which has its own) of almost all amateur teams 90% staffed by local players. And more importantly youth leagues in two year age bands from under 12,under 14, under 16 and under 18 plus womens leagues. The down side is that like the first golden era neatly all the players in the top league are from North America and almost no national media coverage but plenty at local level both print and radio and of course on the web. And GB has worked its way back to the top level at world play,

So you could say the second decade of the 21st century is a second 'golden age'.

 

[Theokritos]

One of the aspects I personally find most interesting about 1930s Great Britain is the transatlantic aspect.

• With the salaries paid there, the British league became an attractive destination for Canadians. It could be viewed as a Canadian minor pro league that just happened to be located overseas.
• New arenas in England were built along the lines of specific NHL arenas: Wembley (Maple Leafs Garden) and Earls Court (Detroit Olympia)
• An attempt was made to start an annual "world championship" for club teams: English champions Wembley Lions travelled to Toronto in 1937 to compete with three North American title holders (the Allan Cup champions, the American Hockey League champions and, to make it four teams, the Canadian junior champions).
• Montreal Canadiens were entertaining the idea of touring Europe with another NHL team for several years. In 1938, it was finally pulled off: Montreal and Chicago went over. They played six games in England and three in France.

Another idea that was floated around in the mid-1930s was that an English professional league should be formed and that it should sign a working agreement with the NHL. Former Canadiens owner/GM Leo Dandurand even suggested that big names of the NHL (he named Howie Morenz, King Clancy, Bill and Bun Cook and Sylvio Mantha) should be distributed to English clubs to form the core of the professional teams there. So there were people trying to turn the British league into an actual farm league of the NHL or perhaps even into the "European Division" of the NHL that would be talked about again later on at various times (1970s to present day). @Martin Harris, do you know how far these talks progressed and do you think they would actually have led to something if WW2 didn't interrupt the development of hockey in England?

 

[Martin Harris]

I spent some time yesterday afternoon replying but it seem to have disappeared into cyber-space!.
NB This reply is not to the one immediately above which just popped onto my screen but to the one above that.

Briefly it depends as to how 'golden era' is defined. If it means total of spectators in the capital, a high standard of play and media coverage in the national press (predominately newspapers) - then yes. But on the down side the ENL was, apart from a team in Brighton less than 60 miles to the south and apart from one winter all the teams were in London and the league only lasted four years (I exclude 1939/40 as only five teams and all in London) The was , apart from a house league at Wembley no youth development. Scotland's SNL lasted fewer years with a lower standard of play

Whereas now (Covid19 excluded) we have a UK wide pro league of ten teams playing a very good standard to near capacity crowds. A national (apart from Scotland which has its own) senior semi-amateur league across England and Wales, youth teams in most rinks in two year age bands from under 12 to under 18 and a women's league. There are also far more rinks, most with hockey teams. The national GB side is back at the top level of world play. The down-side, which could be construed as such, as like pre 1960 senior hockey the teams s are mainly imported players, mainl from North America. The declining (in terms of sales) of the national press does not cover the sport but this off set by good coverage in local pape and radio, and of course by mydaids of web-sites.

I would claim that the second decade of the 21st century is a true 'golden age'.

 

[Martin Harris]

First off apologies for a duplicate reply above. I had not realised the thread continued onto a second page, I assumed it would continue to scroll down! Now to respond to Theo's latest posting.

I had not heard that viewpoint previously but it has some weight. However I would contend the main reason so many Canadians moved to the ENL was that the depression of the 1930s was deeper and longer lasting in Canada, especially in the west than in Britain. Players could obtain a much higher wage than in their homeland. It was not a case of just being enticed to cross the Atlantic, it was sheer economic necessity for those prepared to take the chance.

Point 2 -Wembley (the Empire Pool and Sports Arena) was nothing like Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens either internally or externally You are getting confused with Harringay Arena (demolished in 1978). I have been to all three more than once. Earls Court (Empress Hall) was originally opened as an exhibition Hall in 1886 long before Detroit's Olympia was built.

Point 3 - What/where is the evidence that the one off tournament in Toronto in spring 1937 was held to establish a
'World championship' - source please.? An annual world championship in which Canada competed already existed and had done since 1930.

I would also like to see evidence and source for your claim that in the mid 1930s English pro teams were seeking any form of alliance with the NHL. I have never found any such evidence. In fact J F 'Bunny' Ahearne was opposed to the 1938 Montreal-Detroit visit to Britain on the basis that having seen the real pros the fans would be disillusioned with the ENL product.

 

[Theokritos]

I had not heard that viewpoint previously but it has some weight. However I would contend the main reason so many Canadians moved to the ENL was that the depression of the 1930s was deeper and longer lasting in Canada, especially in the west than in Britain. Players could obtain a much higher wage than in their homeland. It was not a case of just being enticed to cross the Atlantic, it was sheer economic necessity for those prepared to take the chance.

No doubt, that is certainly true.

Point 2 -Wembley (the Empire Pool and Sports Arena) was nothing like Toronto Maple Leaf Gardens either internally or externally You are getting confused with Harringay Arena (demolished in 1978). I have been to all three more than once. Earls Court (Empress Hall) was originally opened as an exhibition Hall in 1886 long before Detroit's Olympia was built.

Thanks for pointing this out. The claim about Wembley was based on something Stewart Roberts has written here two months ago. I'll quote it:

Wembley was modelled on Maple Leaf Gardens and had NHL ice size of 200 x 85 ft.

As for Empress Hall, it was underwent renovation in 1935 and was reopened as a skating rink in November 1935. Here's what the Montreal Gazette wrote about it in October 1935:

(To go to the source, click here)

Point 3 - What/where is the evidence that the one off tournament in Toronto in spring 1937 was held to establish a
'World championship' - source please.?

I'm going to have to look that up again. I've stumbled upon it several years ago in the Canadian newspapers of 1937.

An annual world championship in which Canada competed already existed and had done since 1930.

Of course, but we'd be looking at a club competition as opposed to a competition of national teams.

I would also like to see evidence and source for your claim that in the mid 1930s English pro teams were seeking any form of alliance with the NHL.

To be precise, I'm not sure the English side was seeking an alliance. What I do know is this: former Montreal Canadiens owner & manager Leo Dandurand travelled to England in 1936 and reported to a Canadian newspaper (probably the Montreal Gazette again, but I'll have to look it up) that "a group of sportsmen" in London wanted to create an openly professional league. Dandurand was the one suggesting an alliance with the NHL to the newspaper. I'm not sure whether it was only his individual idea or some of the "sportsmen" he had talked with shared the notion. But Dandurand intended to own or co-own one of the professional teams in England himself, so he would have been one of the club bosses in the English league.

I have never found any such evidence. In fact J F 'Bunny' Ahearne was opposed to the 1938 Montreal-Detroit visit to Britain on the basis that having seen the real pros the fans would be disillusioned with the ENL product.

That's very interesting, especially when one considers that Ahearne kept being opposed to similar endevours later on when he was IIHF president.

 

[Martin Harris]

Thanks. I think we will have to declare a draw/tie on Earls Court and thanks for the clipping,very helpful.

Certainly an ice pad with surrounding tiered seating was installed in the summer of 1935. I have checked with the opening night programme and you were correct re the Detroit connection. The architect for the conversion was an American C. Howards Crane, he planned the Detroit Olympia. There are photos of the work in progress in that autumn's match day programmes in my collection.

English teams (Wembley Lions, Wembley Canadians, Streatham and Richmond Hawks) did compete in a European club championship for two seasons 1934-36 with Berlin, Prague, two teams from Paris, Munich and Milan. It was not a success and was dropped, presumably lost money. Probably why the experiment was not repeated for many decades.

 

[Theokritos]

Thanks. I think we will have to declare a draw/tie on Earls Court and thanks for the clipping,very helpful.

Certainly an ice pad with surrounding tiered seating was installed in the summer of 1935. I have checked with the opening night programme and you were correct re the Detroit connection. The architect for the conversion was an American C. Howards Crane, he planned the Detroit Olympia. There are photos of the work in progress in that autumn's match day programmes in my collection.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the details.

English teams (Wembley Lions, Wembley Canadians, Streatham and Richmond Hawks) did compete in a European club championship for two seasons 1934-36 with Berlin, Prague, two teams from Paris, Munich and Milan. It was not a success and was dropped, presumably lost money. Probably why the experiment was not repeated for many decades.

Yes, that was another international endeavour. Quite the time of big dreams and bold attempts, even if many ultimately came to naught.

Speaking of which, here are newspaper clippings with some of Leo Dandurand's statements:

Link

 

[Theokritos]

An attempt was made to start an annual "world championship" for club teams: English champions Wembley Lions travelled to Toronto in 1937 to compete with three North American title holders (the Allan Cup champions, the American Hockey League champions and, to make it four teams, the Canadian junior champions)

Point 3 - What/where is the evidence that the one off tournament in Toronto in spring 1937 was held to establish a 'World championship' - source please.?

I'm going to have to look that up again. I've stumbled upon it several years ago in the Canadian newspapers of 1937.

So I've looked it up and the Canadian newspapers of the time used various designations for that tournament. Among others I've found "so-called world championship" (Regina Leader-Post, April 20) and "international hockey championship" (Montreal Gazette, April 21).

And one year later, in March 1938, it was announced that the tournament would "not be continued this year at least" due to financial losses in 1937 (Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, March 3 1938, "International Puck Tourney Dropped"). Which suggests that it wasn't originally intended to be a mere one-off.

 

[Stewart]

I spent some time yesterday afternoon replying but it seem to have disappeared into cyber-space!.
NB This reply is not to the one immediately above which just popped onto my screen but to the one above that.

Briefly it depends as to how 'golden era' is defined. If it means total of spectators in the capital, a high standard of play and media coverage in the national press (predominately newspapers) - then yes. But on the down side the ENL was, apart from a team in Brighton less than 60 miles to the south and apart from one winter all the teams were in London and the league only lasted four years (I exclude 1939/40 as only five teams and all in London) The was , apart from a house league at Wembley no youth development. Scotland's SNL lasted fewer years with a lower standard of play

Whereas now (Covid19 excluded) we have a UK wide pro league of ten teams playing a very good standard to near capacity crowds. A national (apart from Scotland which has its own) senior semi-amateur league across England and Wales, youth teams in most rinks in two year age bands from under 12 to under 18 and a women's league. There are also far more rinks, most with hockey teams. The national GB side is back at the top level of world play. The down-side, which could be construed as such, as like pre 1960 senior hockey the teams s are mainly imported players, mainly from North America. The declining (in terms of sales) of the national press does not cover the sport but this off set by good coverage in local pape and radio, and of course by mydaids of web-sites.

I would claim that the second decade of the 21st century is a true 'golden age'.

I broadly agree with this but we mustn't forget the 1980s when over 30 new rinks were built in Britain, our top league was sponsored by household names like Heineken lager and Norwich Union Insurance, there was regular TV coverage of league games, and the sponsored, televised play-off finals were held in front of packed crowds of over 8,000 in Wembley Arena. Golden times indeed!

 

[Martin Harris]

Theo - thanks for the most recent informative clipping from the Montreal Gazette. What stands out as most significant is that there is no mention of the name or names of the persons Dandurand met in London, that would have given greater weight to this story. There was a speedway promoter (Hoskins?) who was quoted in the press here in c1937 as having the idea of building a 20,000 seat arena in east London but nothing came of the idea. All newspaper gossip and nothing more.

 

[Martin Harris]

My response to Stewart is what makes the late 20teens Golden compared with the 1980s and90s is the addition of the standing of the British (GB) national team. Now composed of mainly British born and developed players now holding their own in the top pool of the world championships instead of being predominately reliant on Canadians with British passports via an ancestral link to the UK.

 

[Theokritos]

Theo - thanks for the most recent informative clipping from the Montreal Gazette. What stands out as most significant is that there is no mention of the name or names of the persons Dandurand met in London, that would have given greater weight to this story.

True, it's unfortunate we don't get any specific names. The only one from the European side I've come across as a driving force of professionalism was a hockey promoter named Jeff Dickson, but he was based in Paris, not in London.

Martin, you have mentioned that John Francis Ahearne of (the British Ice Hockey Association) was opposed to the 1938 tour by the Montreal Canadiens and Detroit Red Wings. Who, then, were the people in England involved with that NHL tour?

 

[Martin Harris]

It was Claude Langdon who died in 1964 at the age of 69. First leased the Hammersmith rink, then moved on to Richmond, Brighton and Earls Court both the latter two venues for the 1938 NHL tour, The two teams also met three times in Paris, I don't know if Dickinson was still involved there but suspect he was. Langdon wrote his autobiography in 1953 (probably ghosted) titled Earls Court. The bits on his involvement with hockey are a bit stilted and not completely accurate.

 

[Theokritos]

It was Claude Langdon who died in 1964 at the age of 69. First leased the Hammersmith rink, then moved on to Richmond, Brighton and Earls Court both the latter two venues for the 1938 NHL tour, The two teams also met three times in Paris, I don't know if Dickinson was still involved there but suspect he was. Langdon wrote his autobiography in 1953 (probably ghosted) titled Earls Court. The bits on his involvement with hockey are a bit stilted and not completely accurate.

Thanks. The body of source material we have is what it is, but even if it leaves a lot to be desired, it's enough to make it obvious that the 1930s were an interesting time with great ambitions. As the first European team, Great Britain won the Winter Olympics (albeit with a core of Canadian-trained players) in 1936. Afterwards England hosted a World Championship (1937) and the first NHL overseas tour (1938).

But then WW2 interrupted the development. Taking a superficial look at the time after the war, it seems appears like there was an afterglow of the 1930s boom well into the 1950s with the second and last ever World Championship hosted in 1950, with Canadian players still seeking jobs in England and with the Soviets eager to play against British teams circa 1955/1957. But afterwards, Great Britain faded from the landscape of big hockey and the quality players from Canada decided to stay at home.

Martin, how would you desribe the development of hockey in Great Britain from the 1930s to the 1950s and then to the 1960s/1970s?

 

[Martin Harris]

-Like a roller-coaster ride at a fairground. First steeply up then down the other side but not as far or as fast, then up again but not as steep, then down the other side, up again for a bit, down and then up again (1980s).

 

[Theokritos]

So the 1980s saw a new boom after a prolonged low. Stewart Robert has already described it:

I broadly agree with this but we mustn't forget the 1980s when over 30 new rinks were built in Britain, our top league was sponsored by household names like Heineken lager and Norwich Union Insurance, there was regular TV coverage of league games, and the sponsored, televised play-off finals were held in front of packed crowds of over 8,000 in Wembley Arena.

That boom didn't last though, right? British hockey went into another low (1990s until when?) prior to what you have described as the recent "Golden Age".

 

[Martin Harris]

No, no decline since the 1980s, a few clubs went out of business but other owners came in to take their place. A couple eg Basingstoke and Edinburgh dropped to a lower league. One or two rinks closed eg Stevenage, Southampton, Durham, Glasgow and a couple were replaced ie in London Streatham and Romford and in Scotland Dundee but all with hockey. So until Covid19 struck this year steady progress.

 

[Theokritos]

No, no decline since the 1980s, a few clubs went out of business but other owners came in to take their place. A couple eg Basingstoke and Edinburgh dropped to a lower league. One or two rinks closed eg Stevenage, Southampton, Durham, Glasgow and a couple were replaced ie in London Streatham and Romford and in Scotland Dundee but all with hockey. So until Covid19 struck this year steady progress.

Well, then let's hope Great Britain the upward trend continues once we're past the pandemy!