Dave Hakstol

[Beef Invictus]

I wonder what experts think about the impact of fatigue on injury risk?

https://www.edgehill.ac.uk/news/story/changing-practice-consideration-fatigue-cause-injury/

the body’s physical response to football-related exercise has high-risk implications for injury and that fatigue increases these risks. Due to his findings sports scientists are taking fatigue into account as a risk factor in causing injury and have changed their practice when approaching injury prevention.

Fatigue-Related Injuries in Athletes

While reduction in force production is obviously detrimental in many circumstances, progressive muscle fatigue has also been shown to impair postural stability (Johnston et al., 1998), muscle coordination (Carpenter et al., 1998) and control of limb velocity and acceleration (Jaric et al., 1997).

The form of kicking a ball degrades in a manner that makes injury more likely. Before you object to this not being hockey, please bear in mind that hockey isn't so radically different from soccer that goalies would be immune to fatigue factors. They are both human athletic activities, so the point holds true.

These results suggest that the specific muscle fatigue induced in the present study not only diminished the ability to generate force, but also disturbed the effective action of the interactive moment leading to poorer inter-segmental coordination during kicking. Moreover, fatigue obscured the eccentric action of the knee flexors immediately before ball impact. Interestingly, this might increase the susceptibility to injury.

Let's look at some causes of injury.

Causes of sports injuries

Overtraining
Simply put, this is doing too much, too often with insufficient rest between. A lack of adequate recovery time coupled with amplified intensity of training is the most common cause of overtraining.
Symptoms include:
- Excessive fatigue
- Troubled sleep
- Inability to concentrate
- Inability to perform the exercise or sport with the correct technique.
A physiological sign of overtraining is also an increased resting heart rate. The best way to avoid overtraining is to ensure adequate rest between sessions.
Overuse
Repetitive strain injuries are caused by repeated actions which apply pressure to a certain group of muscles, joint or area of soft tissue.
They usually worsen over time and include injuries such as tennis elbow, golfer’s knee, thrower’s shoulder (impingement syndrome), plantar fasciitis and jumper’s knee (patellar tendonitis).
Symptoms include:
- Gradual pain which worsens over time, sometimes with swelling and/or bruising. Ensuring adequate rest between sessions is the best way to avoid an overuse injury.

Oh hey, those two things look a lot like what a goalie who is being overused relative to what he is accustomed to could experience.

I wonder what they say about poor form?

Poor technique
Any exercise or sport which is performed repetitively with bad form is a recipe for injury.
Over time the symptoms of injuries being caused by improper technique will be exacerbated and can either lead to a more serious condition or result in more acute injuries.
The best way to avoid repeatedly performing an exercise/sport with the incorrect technique is to make sure you use a professional coach or trainer to show you the correct way to do things from the beginning and to ensure you’re wearing to appropriate clothing, shoes and using the right equipment.

Oh. They confirm that poor form leads to injury, and quotes further up on this post confirm that fatigue leads to poor form.


So, yeah. As I was saying, it is a fact that overuse causes fatigue, fatigue leads to poor form, poor form leads to injury. We have goalies who have displayed shaky form, particularly their angles, requiring more exertion to save shots rather than relying on efficient positioning; those flaws hold them back when they are rested, and they become much more problematic when they're being driven hard. Neither of those goalies can stand up to being used as if they're true #1 goalies. Therefore, using them, especially one who is very injury prone, in that manner is terrible management, and a bad coaching decision. It is not defensible.

All you have to do is trust the medical experts I've quoted.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, Neuvirth is injury prone. You seemed to be insinuating that his playing time caused his injuries. There’s no way to know that. He gets hurt regardless of playing time.

Fatigue taking a toll on form? Sure, probably can. The insinuation that it’s a fact Elliott’s PT caused his injury? Complete conjecture.

Consult the post above this one. It should clear up any doubt that fatigue from activities you aren't used to leads to injuries. The playing time Hakstol gave both goalies is of a sort neither is used to.

 

[Garbage Goal]

We are going in circles now, and your arguments are weak. No other competent coach with goalies like Elliott and Neuvirth uses them like Hakstol does. There is reason for that.

Have fun spending your time resisting all criticism of Hakstol while pretending you aren't a partisan for him.

This is why you're being called out for bias/contrarianism, because your defense of him doesn't make any sense and yet you so vigorously continue trying.

Being hypocritical doesn't help your case either. Constantly accusing others of being biased and then complaining when people label you as biased.

You guys essentially did what I did except I just don't encourage these types of people. Anybody who took an Introduction to Logic class in their freshman year of college can plainly see what people like Ghosts Beer or Deadhead do when they argue. Or just anybody with any sense or who is used to debating. You guys pointed it out and I did earlier, he's just going to claim the part of the balanced, fair opinion yet use nothing except circular logic, make appeals to ignorance or authority, and blatantly avoid any direct question that would otherwise reveal his hypocrisy or bias. He's just going to do that ad nauseum and has, in fact.

Curu, despite being a great poster otherwise, always disagrees with our goalies being driven back to the ground ever since me and others called it out when it started happening with Mason years ago. Even back then, before we had years more sample of it happening with other goalies, people were proving him wrong by showing just how absurd and abnormal the goalie usage is. Yet, here he is, just like every time this issue is brought up every few months, disagreeing in passing even though he's been shown data and logic that directly proves him wrong. It's why I just don't respond to it anymore.

Ghost Beer is going to do that endlessly except with Hakstol. You can always tell who pulls this crap which is why I'm not surprised deadhead is a lawyer. Literally anything you say is going to be futile because he's never going to admit being wrong on anything and he's just going to put you in an endless circle of hypocrisy, avoidance, and appeals to ignorance.

 

[Garbage Goal]

So, yeah. As I was saying, it is a fact that overuse causes fatigue, fatigue leads to poor form, poor form leads to injury. We have goalies who have displayed shaky form, particularly their angles, requiring more exertion to save shots rather than relying on efficient positioning; those flaws hold them back when they are rested, and they become much more problematic when they're being driven hard. Neither of those goalies can stand up to being used as if they're true #1 goalies. Therefore, using them, especially one who is very injury prone, in that manner is terrible management, and a bad coaching decision. It is not defensible.

All you have to do is trust the medical experts I've quoted.

Excellent research that further backups a point already backed up by data.

You know he's just going to respond with no evidence of his own and state, almost verbatim, "but you do not KNOW that it was the starts, it's pure conjecture". Then follow it up with "did you read his medical files, did you talk to Elliott"...yadda yadda yadda. If I didn't call it out in public right now I would bet any amount of money that that is his response because it is that predictable.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It doesn't have to have caused the injury. It only has to have significantly increased the chances to the best of our knowledge. It's like trading an unprotected draft pick -- winning/losing the Lottery doesn't change the risk.

 

[Striiker]

You guys essentially did what I did except I just don't encourage these types of people. Anybody who took an Introduction to Logic class in their freshman year of college can plainly see what people like Ghosts Beer or Deadhead do when they argue. Or just anybody with any sense or who is used to debating. You guys pointed it out and I did earlier, he's just going to claim the part of the balanced, fair opinion yet use nothing except circular logic, make appeals to ignorance or authority, and blatantly avoid any direct question that would otherwise reveal his hypocrisy or bias. He's just going to do that ad nauseum and has, in fact.

Curu, despite being a great poster otherwise, always disagrees with our goalies being driven back to the ground ever since me and other called it out when it started happening with Mason years ago. Even back then, before we had years more sample of it happening with other goalies, people were proving him wrong by showing just how absurd and abnormal the goalie usage is. Yet, here he is, just like every time this issue is brought up every few months, disagreeing in passing even though he's been shown data and logic that directly proves him wrong.

Ghost Beer is going to do that endlessly except with Hakstol. You can always tell pulls this crap which is why I'm not surprised deadhead is a lawyer. Literally anything you say is going to be futile because he's never going to admit being wrong on anything and he's just going to put you in an endless circle of hypocrisy, avoidance, and appeals to ignorance.

It seems as if Ghosts Beer is just one of those people who are overly concerned with appearing unbiased, so he'll sometimes end up in situations like this because of it. He really really really just doesn't want to appear to be going along with the consensus.

The other guy just has an extreme agenda and has no problem with lying or being dishonest to promote it, even when there's clear proof that exposes him.

 

[Garbage Goal]

It seems as if Ghosts Beer is just one of those people who are overly concerned with appearing unbiased, so he'll sometimes end up in situations like this because of it. He really really really just doesn't want to go appear to be going along with the consensus.

The other guy just has an extreme agenda and has no problem with lying or being dishonest to promote it, even when there's clear proof that exposes him.

Probably, like I said when I called him out in my post and said I was done with him he's generally a great poster so I usually expect him to be pretty reasonable. Doesn't matter what the reason is to me though, futile is futile when it comes to me putting effort into making a back-and-forth.

 

[deadhead]

Striiker keeps declaring about the importance of scoring goals.
Well, in that case P1 is probably the best stat, not gross points, because secondary assists are "relatively cheap" compared to goals and primary assists.

Top P1/60 - 5x5
Matthews 2.60
MacKinnon 2.45
McDavid 2.30
Dadonov 2.26
Marchand 2.19
Kucherov 2.16
Pastrnak 2.16
Malkin 2.13
Vanek 2.12
Marchessault 2.12

23. Ovechkin 1.91

29. Giroux 1.84
38. Couts 1.76
46. Konecny 1.69
65. Voracek 1.60 (JT 62, JVR 64)
186. Patrick 1.07
207. Raffl 0.94
229. Simmonds 0.86
243. Filpulla 0.75
less than 800 5x5 minutes:
Laughton 1.06
Weal 0.93

Power Play
5. JVR 5.75 [5yr - 4.01]
43. Voracek 4.17 [5yr - 3.50]
50. Giroux 3.95 [5yr - 3.85]
82. Simmonds 3.53 [5yr - 4.53]
86. Patrick 3.46
127. Couts 2.82
181. Filppula 1.97 [5yr - 1.99]
196. Weal 1.69
235. TK 0.98

 

[Beef Invictus]

The only people who ever discount secondary assists are those who have an agenda. There is no honest reason to do that.

 

[Striiker]

The only people who ever discount secondary assists are those who have an agenda. There is no honest reason to do that.

If we’re going to do that we might as well take away all assists, because sometimes the primary assist was less “deserving” than the secondary.

Or maybe go goal-by-goal and judge who deserves an assist. That way nobodies points are inflated by cheap points.

Actually, while we’re at it, go goal-by-goal and see if the person actually earned the goal. Or did it just deflect off of them? If so, take it away!

 

[Adtar02]

You’re clearly a medical expert, so how much more likely are we talking? 1%? 10%? 25%? 50%? More?

How many extra games off during 23 in a row would have prevented the injury, which you & others apparently feel only happened due to overuse?

And isn’t Hextall in charge of supplying the goalies? Is it Hakstol’s fault he’s trying to win with Elliott & Neuvirth, & that Neuvirth is as unreliable a backup as you could have, which left the Flyers without an NHL backup option for a while, causing Elliott to play more?

recovery time for sports and its importance Do a google search

 

[freakydallas13]

If you can't get simple things right why should I take you seriously?

 

[deadhead]

Secondary assists are inflated, anyone who watches hockey knows that.
Now if they tightened scoring (i.e. don't give a secondary assist if it wasn't directly related to the goal) then points would be a more meaningful stat.
Maybe average P and P1?

Too often I've seen a defensemen send it up ice, a forward then makes a great pass to set up a goal, and the defenseman gets a cheap point.
Or a forward just throws it back to the point, and a great pass then creates a scoring opportunity.

I don't have an easy answer, but when you give two assists for practically every goal, assists should be considered less valuable than goals.

I mean Striiker is the one who insists it's all about scoring goals.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You guys essentially did what I did except I just don't encourage these types of people. Anybody who took an Introduction to Logic class in their freshman year of college can plainly see what people like Ghosts Beer or Deadhead do when they argue. Or just anybody with any sense or who is used to debating. You guys pointed it out and I did earlier, he's just going to claim the part of the balanced, fair opinion yet use nothing except circular logic, make appeals to ignorance or authority, and blatantly avoid any direct question that would otherwise reveal his hypocrisy or bias. He's just going to do that ad nauseum and has, in fact.

Curu, despite being a great poster otherwise, always disagrees with our goalies being driven back to the ground ever since me and others called it out when it started happening with Mason years ago. Even back then, before we had years more sample of it happening with other goalies, people were proving him wrong by showing just how absurd and abnormal the goalie usage is. Yet, here he is, just like every time this issue is brought up every few months, disagreeing in passing even though he's been shown data and logic that directly proves him wrong. It's why I just don't respond to it anymore.

Ghost Beer is going to do that endlessly except with Hakstol. You can always tell who pulls this crap which is why I'm not surprised deadhead is a lawyer. Literally anything you say is going to be futile because he's never going to admit being wrong on anything and he's just going to put you in an endless circle of hypocrisy, avoidance, and appeals to ignorance.

Logic? Your position is that it’s illogical to believe 23 starts in a row may not have caused Elliott’s injury? It’s all conjecture, being portrayed as truth.

I got a job out of thousands of applicants based on a logic test, then had to undergo three months of training focused on eliminating bias, so maybe I’m fairly qualified to know you are basing something on pure speculation.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Logic? Your position is that it’s illogical to believe 23 starts in a row may not have caused Elliott’s injury? It’s all conjecture, being portrayed as truth.

I got a job out of thousands of applicants based on a logic test, then had to undergo three months of training focused on eliminating bias, so maybe I’m fairly qualified to know you are basing something on pure speculation.

Oh, look at that, you said exactly what I thought you would say (even used the word conjecture), ignored every post and comment you can’t refute (including what Beef said and someone pointing out it’s not about what caused the injury necessarily), and decided to flaunt your self-perceived superiority while thinly veiling it as validation of your mental aptitude.

Well done.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Oh, look at that, you said exactly what I thought you would say (even used the word conjecture), ignored every post and comment you can’t refute (including what Beef said and someone pointing out it’s not about what caused the injury necessarily), and decided to flaunt yourself while veiling it as validation of your mental aptitude.

Well done.

You have no evidence that Elliott’s injury was caused by Hakstol vs. just a random injury any goalie can suffer regardless of workload.

 

[Garbage Goal]

You have no evidence that Elliott’s injury was caused by Hakstol vs. just a random injury any goalie can suffer regardless of workload.

Oh, look at that, repeating exactly what I already said you would say almost verbatim. Again, well done. I'm out, good luck with this guys.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You have no evidence that Elliott’s injury was caused by Hakstol vs. just a random injury any goalie can suffer regardless of workload.

Do you think maximizing the chance of Elliott becoming injured by subjecting him to a workload he isn't accustomed to is good coaching?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Hakstol comes from college where they play like 40 or so games with games on the weekends. The starting goalies in college play back to back’s regularly & play the majority of the games unless of an injury. He still hasn’t adjusted from that to this day.

 

[Freddy The Fog]

Hakstol. Coach of the Year. Book it.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Hakstol. Coach of the Year. Book it.

Gonna need to give Biznasty like 20+ votes.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Hakstol. Coach of the Year. Book it.

back in the AHL or something maybe.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Can someone explain to me how Ian Laperriere still has a job?

Still haven’t gotten over that one.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Probably feel bad for him that he blocked a shot face first.

 

[Garbage Goal]

We had the 15th ranked PP and 29th ranked PK. For all the talk about how we're a supposedly elite PP team and how well our best players did offensively last year, that is a pretty mediocre PP ranking. People never seem to factor in how our abhorrent PK that never changes every freaking year would probably effect our goalie's save percentages either.