Dave Hakstol Part VI: I See A Bad Coach And I Want Him Painted Black

[Hollywood Cannon]

Hopefully this is the final one...

Previous Thread:

Dave Hakstol Part V

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[kudymen]

And he is still here! ugh

 

[bennysflyers16]

Local TSN now having a full convo on how is he still here !!!

Also speculating JVR came from above Hexy, as they are becoming fed up with the no improvements and a Hak firing will have to come from above Hexy as he has dug his heels in on his boy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Fire Hakstol.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

@Beef Invictus

Hakstol's system and player usage are so bad that it's a supremely poor move to make major changes before you see what the roster can do when handled by a real coach.

I disagree. I think it's possible to see flaws in a roster that could be improved by personnel changes even if you dislike the coaching. Also, most of the "core" of this team have played under multiple coaches with similar results. The exceptions would be Provorov and Ghost. But Provorov is no better than the Timonen those teams had (actually, a notch below). I wish I could believe, as you do, that coaching is this team's all-encompassing problem, and that a coaching change will solve everything, with no roster changes needed. But I don't. I think they need changes to player personnel, as well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

@Beef Invictus

I disagree. I think it's possible to see flaws in a roster that could be improved by personnel changes even if you dislike the coaching. Also, most of the "core" of this team have played under multiple coaches with similar results. The exceptions would be Provorov and Ghost. But Provorov is no better than the Timonen those teams had (actually, a notch below). I wish I could believe, as you do, that coaching is this team's all-encompassing problem, and that a coaching change will solve everything, with no roster changes needed. But I don't. I think they need changes to player personnel, as well.

And who are those multiple coaches? A totally lost Lavi, Berube who was abysmal, and Hakstol who is just as abysmal. This team's coaching for over half a decade has been absolute garbage.

It's one thing to shuffle minor pieces. Ghost and Voracek are not minor pieces. That's roster detonation. It's an error when you don't even know what the roster is capable of with an NHL coach, which most of them haven't ever had.

 

[Striiker]

Can someone find me a quote from ANYONE who said coaching is the ONLY problem?

I keep seeing references to this but I've never seen a single person say it.

Maybe he knows nobody said it and is just lying again? Very possible.

 

[Rebels57]

Local TSN now having a full convo on how is he still here !!!

Also speculating JVR came from above Hexy, as they are becoming fed up with the no improvements and a Hak firing will have to come from above Hexy as he has dug his heels in on his boy.

Sounds about right.

Fire Hextall.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Local TSN now having a full convo on how is he still here !!!

Also speculating JVR came from above Hexy, as they are becoming fed up with the no improvements and a Hak firing will have to come from above Hexy as he has dug his heels in on his boy.

Eh, if they were so fed up Hextall and Hakstol would be gone. Seems much ado about nothing.

 

[kelmitchell]

Our fans need to start actimg like the browns fans if we want change

 

[Jray42]

It’s never gonna happen is it? Be real with me.

 

[kelmitchell]

It’s never gonna happen is it? Be real with me.

It only happens if they win 7-0 today

 

[Ghosts Beer]

And who are those multiple coaches? A totally lost Lavi, Berube who was abysmal, and Hakstol who is just as abysmal. This team's coaching for over half a decade has been absolute garbage.

It's one thing to shuffle minor pieces. Ghost and Voracek are not minor pieces. That's roster detonation. It's an error when you don't even know what the roster is capable of with an NHL coach, which most of them haven't ever had.

First of all, Laviolette most certainly *is* an "NHL coach," and one of the best there is, at that.

Secondly, Gee, it's almost like the vast majority of NHL coaches are somewhere in the middle of a bell curve and highly fungible. Funny how the ones with excellent results have loaded rosters and/or elite goaltending, and then almost always come back down to the middle when the talent and/or goaltending decline. Quenneville couldn't make a team with Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Duncan Keith, Alex deBrincat and Corey Crawford reach .500 once Crawford got hurt and the depth wasn't near top of the league anymore. In fact, even the two years before missing the playoffs last season they were knocked out in the first round.

I wouldn't write off trading anyone on this team if I think it could improve the roster. Now, I doubt trading Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, or Provorov would lead to an improved roster. So those are almost certainly no-gos. But, for example, I completely disagree that trading Ghost for Nylander would be "roster detonation." It's simply swapping one highly skilled player for another, but who play different positions and supply different pros and cons.

When the Flyers traded Mark Recchi for LeClair, Desjardins, and Dionne at the beginning of that season, was that a "supremely poor move" because the team hadn't yet had enough time to play under a new coach in Terry Murray? Of course not. In fact, it turned the franchise around even though it involved trading their 2nd best player. You have to look into all ways to improve a team, IMO, and not fall in love with players on your existing roster.

 

[Rebels57]

 

[Beef Invictus]

First of all, Laviolette most certainly *is* an "NHL coach," and one of the best there is, at that.

Secondly, Gee, it's almost like the vast majority of NHL coaches are somewhere in the middle of a bell curve and highly fungible. Funny how the ones with excellent results have loaded rosters and/or elite goaltending, and then almost always come back down to the middle when the talent and/or goaltending decline. Quenneville couldn't make a team with Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Duncan Keith, Alex deBrincat and Corey Crawford reach .500 once Crawford got hurt and the depth wasn't near top of the league anymore. In fact, even the two years before missing the playoffs last season they were knocked out in the first round.

I wouldn't write off trading anyone on this team if I think it could improve the roster. Now, I doubt trading Giroux, Couturier, Voracek, or Provorov would lead to an improved roster. So those are almost certainly no-gos. But, for example, I completely disagree that trading Ghost for Nylander would be "roster detonation." It's simply swapping one highly skilled player for another, but who play different positions and supply different pros and cons.

When the Flyers traded Mark Recchi for LeClair, Desjardins, and Dionne at the beginning of that season, was that a "supremely poor move" because the team hadn't yet had enough time to play under a new coach in Terry Murray? Of course not. In fact, it turned the franchise around even though it involved trading their 2nd best player. You have to look into all ways to improve a team, IMO, and not fall in love with players on your existing roster.

Berube and Hakstol are decidely near the bottom for coaches. You're vastly overestimating both of them.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Berube and Hakstol are decidely near the bottom for coaches. You're vastly overestimating both of them.

I hated Berube. I think Hakstol should go. But these core players have achieved similar results with different coaches, and I think they share enough responsibility, and that management has observed them enough, to make an educated judgment of whether trading a "core" player for another high-quality player could improve the team's chances. Again, see the Recchi trade. Sometimes trading a high value player can work wonders. Again, I don't think this is a matter of me overestimating the quality of Berube and Hakstol. It's a fundamental difference of opinion between you and me regarding how much weight to place on coaching vs. how much weight to place on a roster when a team struggles. I think the scales generally tip slightly in favor of the roster meaning more. You seem to believe the scales (while not 100%, despite what Striiker wants to straw man my argument into) are quite tilted in favor of coaching vs. roster. Neither of us will convince the other differently, so I'm not sure why we keep going in circles with each other. Boredom, I suppose.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I hated Berube. I think Hakstol should go. But these core players have achieved similar results with different coaches, and I think they share enough responsibility, and that management has observed them enough, to make an educated judgment of whether trading a "core" player for another high-quality player could improve the team's chances. Again, see the Recchi trade. Sometimes trading a high value player can work wonders. Again, I don't think this is a matter of me overestimating the quality of Berube and Hakstol. It's a fundamental difference of opinion between you and me regarding how much weight to place on coaching vs. how much weight to place on a roster when a team struggles. I think the scales generally tip slightly in favor of the roster meaning more. You seem to believe the scales (while not 100%, despite what Striiker wants to straw man my argument into, per his wont) are quite tilted in favor of coaching vs. roster. Neither of us will convince the other differently, so I'm not sure why we keep going in circles with each other. Boredom, I suppose.

They've achieved similar results with a coach who had no idea how to use what his roster had become, a coach who used a system so conservative it made Hunter's stint in DC look aggressive, and a current coach employing a dreadfully stupid perimeter system.

Based on how often this roster overcomes the immensely stupid futility called for by their coach, it really cannot be that bad. That they made the playoffs last year despite being held back by their coaching staff and goaltending is a testament to underlying quality.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I honestly don't understand why Laviolette was fired or why we've let ourselves have this narrative that he had turned into a disaster.

He had a really flawed team to work with...look at the roster in "2012"-2013 and at the start of the next season. The defense was trash. The goaltending was trash. The depth was trash. The team literally iced 6 players 35 or older in the lockout year, we had the husks of Gagne, Knuble and Fedotenko, a struggling 2nd year Couturier...That was a really bad team. Pronger was gone for good, Jagr was too, mediocre as he was, Carle was also gone, Hartnell and Briere had fallen off a cliff, Coburn and Timonen were overused and wearing down...The defense any given night featured 4 of Meszaros, Schenn, Foster, Gervais, Gustafsson, Grossmann, or Lauridssen. I mean, reread that last sentence, and then again. f*** THAT.

Here's the thing: Laviolette's a great coach if you give him a team that works for his style. That involves decent goaltending and a defense that can skate. He got neither leading up to his firing.

The fact that Peter Laviolette took the fall for the terrible roster construction frustrated me then and still does today. It was garbage thanks to Holmgren, and he fired Laviolette because he'd created a total mess of a team. They made the playoffs in 2013-14 because Giroux's a god and they had a goalie in Mason with a SV% above .915 and they had added an ancient Streit to at least have a semi-competent defense. They might have still (just barely) made it that season with Lavi behind the bench.

It was Holmgren's time to go, not Laviolette's. He'd gambled hard on Weber in the 2012 offseason, then tried for Suter and Parise, and came up empty and did nothing. He had no idea how to make small, responsible roster moves or tweaks to create a cohesive team or complement his coach, only how to offer huge names $100 million deals.

 

[Ruck Over]

I call bullshit on @Hollywood Couturier

He should totally believe we need an additional Dave Hakstol thread. Is Dave Hakstol still the coach of the Philadelphia Flyers? Then it proves to reason there should be an active robust thread available discussing why he is the suck and should be fired/removed from the job.

Get with the PROGRAM!

 

[deadhead]

If you're building a championship team, Voracek and Simmonds are no big loss, Voracek has been a mediocre playoff performer and Simmonds has been 4th line caliber. So if the right offer comes along, pull the trigger. After almost a decade, no coach is suddenly going to make them anything more than they've been.

Ghost might be damaged goods, so if someone is willing to over pay, go for it.
Hagg is certainly expendable, as is Gudas.
Weise might be moveable given limited contract length and solid play.
I'd listen to offers for Weal and Laughton.

Lehtera and MacDonald have no market.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If you're building a championship team, Voracek and Simmonds are no big loss, Voracek has been a mediocre playoff performer and Simmonds has been 4th line caliber. So if the right offer comes along, pull the trigger. After almost a decade, no coach is suddenly going to make them anything more than they've been.

Ghost might be damaged goods, so if someone is willing to over pay, go for it.
Hagg is certainly expendable, as is Gudas.
Weise might be moveable given limited contract length and solid play.
I'd listen to offers for Weal and Laughton.

Lehtera and MacDonald have no market.

Everyone is a choker until suddenly they aren't. Playoff performance is a tiny sample size, and considering most of that sample has been built under incompetent moron coaches it's hard to take seriously.


Simmonds is declining but he is also being misused as a perimeter player.

Ghost is fine and is one of the most cap efficient players in the league.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I honestly don't understand why Laviolette was fired or why we've let ourselves have this narrative that he had turned into a disaster.

He had a really flawed team to work with...look at the roster in "2012"-2013 and at the start of the next season. The defense was trash. The goaltending was trash. The depth was trash. The team literally iced 6 players 35 or older in the lockout year, we had the husks of Gagne, Knuble and Fedotenko, a struggling 2nd year Couturier...That was a really bad team. Pronger was gone for good, Jagr was too, mediocre as he was, Carle was also gone, Hartnell and Briere had fallen off a cliff, Coburn and Timonen were overused and wearing down...The defense any given night featured 4 of Meszaros, Schenn, Foster, Gervais, Gustafsson, Grossmann, or Lauridssen. I mean, reread that last sentence, and then again. **** THAT.

Here's the thing: Laviolette's a great coach if you give him a team that works for his style. That involves decent goaltending and a defense that can skate. He got neither leading up to his firing.

The fact that Peter Laviolette took the fall for the terrible roster construction frustrated me then and still does today. It was garbage thanks to Holmgren, and he fired Laviolette because he'd created a total mess of a team. They made the playoffs in 2013-14 because Giroux's a god and they had a goalie in Mason with a SV% above .915 and they had added an ancient Streit to at least have a semi-competent defense. They might have still (just barely) made it that season with Lavi behind the bench.

It was Holmgren's time to go, not Laviolette's. He'd gambled hard on Weber in the 2012 offseason, then tried for Suter and Parise, and came up empty and did nothing. He had no idea how to make small, responsible roster moves or tweaks to create a cohesive team or complement his coach, only how to offer huge names $100 million deals.

Agreed. I made almost the exact same points the other day in the previous incarnation of this thread.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Laviolette earned a firing because he refused to change how he played the roster.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Everyone is a choker until suddenly they aren't. Playoff performance is a tiny sample size, and considering most of that sample has been built under incompetent moron coaches it's hard to take seriously.


Simmonds is declining but he is also being misused as a perimeter player.

Ghost is fine and is one of the most cap efficient players in the league.

I still have no idea what you're talking about re: Simmonds being used as a "perimeter player." If any forward at ES should benefit from Hakstol's system it should be Simmonds, whose strength is battling in front of the net, setting screens, and collecting garbage. The focus on shots from the point at ES basically gives Simmonds the same opportunity to play at ES like he plays on the PP. BTW, he's been a subpar ES player, especially defensively, under every coach he's had here. It's just not what he's good at. And of course, now that he's older, he's even worse. Basically a black hole offensively if it isn't in front of the net.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I approve of The Rolling Stones reference.

On the subject of Laviolette, he was in a bad situation he didn’t adapt to and coach’s are the first ones to go regardless of their quality. He is the only legitimately good HC out of our last four though as he’s proving with Nashville and has with past teams. If anything, firing him 3 games into a season was just another in a long list of organizational incompetences.