Dave Hakstol Part III

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Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
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Isn’t it amazing that MacDonald has been SO BAD that it’s covering for Hagg (who has also sucked)?

It’s like how you wouldn’t feel a bee sting while you’re being tasered.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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For all the haughty chuckling, Hagg has 2 goals & 3 pts in 4 games. Sanheim has 0 goals & 1 assist in four games. Hagg has been better than Sanheim so far this season.
 

Tripod

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In fairness,
For all the haughty chuckling, Hagg has 2 goals & 3 pts in 4 games. Sanheim has 0 goals & 1 assist in four games. Hagg has been better than Sanheim so far this season.
Sanheim should have 2 points as he certainly chipped the puck to Gudas last night who then passed to Jake who scored.

I have had little issue with Hagg thus year. It's AMac who has caved every pairing he is on.
 
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flyershockey

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For all the haughty chuckling, Hagg has 2 goals & 3 pts in 4 games. Sanheim has 0 goals & 1 assist in four games. Hagg has been better than Sanheim so far this season.
I'd actually agree with that. He's been productive and caught out of position far less versus last year.

Hagg does have the supreme advantage of not having a coaching staff breathing down his neck; looking for any reason to cut his minutes. Even as a rookie, Hakstol seemed to look past Hagg's mistakes because of some dependability mystique. It's also highly unlikely that Hagg contributes anything close to this level of production as the season progresses, and Sanheim will hopefully eventually pull a Ghost and start playing his game instead of whatever neutered version of an offensive defenseman that Hakstol wants him to be.
 

Adam Warlock

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Apr 15, 2006
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I love how people defend Hak by saying the team doesn't have enough talent...yet teams in our division like Columbus, NJ, Carolina, and even the Islanders so far all have less talent than us yet play much better hockey.

Give a good coach G, Couts, Provy, Ghost, Voracek, etc and the results would be remarkable.
 

Rich Nixon

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Jul 11, 2006
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I don't see anything really wrong with Hagg's play so far this year. He's been...abolutely fine. Nothing special, just fine. I think most criticism headed his direction on this board is just misdirected frustration at the underuse of Sanheim. As I say always, don't let your anger at one thing blind your analysis of another.

Sanheim, for his part, has been pretty damn good in the little time he's been given. Composed and good with the puck and decent positionally. Has made some incredibly strong plays to spur the breakout. My problems with him last year had to do with his tendency to panic with the puck on his stick, which seemed to happen twice a game. Rookie shit. He looks a lot better. Actually, him and Hagg would be a pretty good pairing if they both play like they have to start this season. That, of course, would short-circuit Hak, because he wouldn't know if he was supposed to play them 28 minutes or 9.

Provorov has been wildly inconsistent, trying to do too much. I get it, but he's gotta settle it down and play smart, which is what he's best at.
 
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deadhead

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I love how people defend Hak by saying the team doesn't have enough talent...yet teams in our division like Columbus, NJ, Carolina, and even the Islanders so far all have less talent than us yet play much better hockey.

Give a good coach G, Couts, Provy, Ghost, Voracek, etc and the results would be remarkable.

No it wouldn't, doubtful G, Couts and Voracek will exceed last year's production under any coach, and Ghost isn't going to get much better.
I mean do you really think G is going to get better in his 30s than 100 points, and Couts had a great year but he's not a pure scorer, Ghost can't milk much more out of PP1, and unless I've really lit a fire under Voracek, last year is about as much as you can expect the rest of his career.
Provorov will get better in a few years because he's self-motivated, independent of any coach.

What a "better" coach would have to do is raise the play of the rest of the roster, and create miracles with our current goaltenders.
 

Striiker

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Sanheim has been better defensively than Hagg and we know that offensive production isn’t sustainable.


It'd be nice if Sanheim was constantly with the 1st line too, like the 2nd pair is. And not get scrap playing time, obviously, but with Hakstol here that'll never happen. He loves Hagg and Mac too much, the bias is unreal.
 
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Adtar02

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Apr 8, 2012
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How is this Hakstok's fault? He doesn't have a second line center. His $7M winger is injured. Their alleged number one defenseman hasn't played anywhere like a #1. The team save percentage after four games has to be near worst in the entire league. The #3 defenseman (that the GM gave them) has been God-awful. Bash Hagg all you want but he's actually played fine for a defenseman who is 5/6 in ice time.

Lindblom-Patrick-Konecny have been a disaster as an alleged 2nd line. I have hope TK will turn it around. I'm very worried about Patrick and Lindblom.
That line played a game and 5 shifts together. And they are young players. Patrick has made mistakes but also some great plays. Stop over reacting about good talent this early.
 
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Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
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No it wouldn't, doubtful G, Couts and Voracek will exceed last year's production under any coach, and Ghost isn't going to get much better.
I mean do you really think G is going to get better in his 30s than 100 points, and Couts had a great year but he's not a pure scorer, Ghost can't milk much more out of PP1, and unless I've really lit a fire under Voracek, last year is about as much as you can expect the rest of his career.
Provorov will get better in a few years because he's self-motivated, independent of any coach.

What a "better" coach would have to do is raise the play of the rest of the roster, and create miracles with our current goaltenders.
Are you suggesting the other players aren’t self motivated
 

Striiker

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If we had a coach that used players properly the teams skill would be far more effective and visible.

But giving guys like TK and Sanheim the least amount of time among their peers is indefensible and absolutely makes an impact on overall team play.

But hey, gotta get Lehtera, Mac, Hagg, and Weise that playing time!
 

Lindberg

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If we had a coach that used players properly the teams skill would be far more effective and visible.

But giving guys like TK and Sanheim the least amount of time among their peers is indefensible and absolutely makes an impact on overall team play.

But hey, gotta get Lehtera, Mac, Hagg, and Weise that playing time!

Lethera's had some of the lowest playing time of forwards in some games and hasn't been a negative for the most part.
 

Striiker

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Lethera's had some of the lowest playing time of forwards in some games and hasn't been a negative for the most part.
Even if he was the best 4th liner in the league, there’s never an excuse for him to play more than TK. Unless TK is either injured or kicked out of the game.
 

Lindberg

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Even if he was the best 4th liner in the league, there’s never an excuse for him to play more than TK. Unless TK is either injured or kicked out of the game.

Well he’s a center and Tk isn’t. TK isn’t going to play on the penalty kill either. If he’s regularly getting more ice time than is warranted I think your complaint is valid.
 

Striiker

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Well he’s a center and Tk isn’t. TK isn’t going to play on the penalty kill either. If he’s regularly getting more ice time than is warranted I think your complaint is valid.
You could look at Weise too, who also played more then TK and is a winger.

There’s no excuse for this and it hurts the team badly.

Sanheim and TK get undeserved punishments, meanwhile Hagg is completely bulletproof and gets so much more than he deserves. Its a joke.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
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You could look at Weise too, who also played more then TK and is a winger.

There’s no excuse for this and it hurts the team badly.

Sanheim and TK get undeserved punishments, meanwhile Hagg is completely bulletproof and gets so much more than he deserves. Its a joke.

My comment was only for Lehtera. Patrick leaving the game is certainly going to cause Lehtera's ice time to go up.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
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My comment was only for Lehtera. Patrick leaving the game is certainly going to cause Lehtera's ice time to go up.
My point is he looks for any excuse to bump the icetime of the trash and lower the icetime of TK it Sanheim.

The bias is clear.
 

Magua

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I remember Brandon Manning had 7 points in his first 10 games a couple seasons ago. He scored 5 more points in his next 55 games. I don't even need to sh*t on Hagg -- and we really haven't so far -- but some people can't help trying to infer any Sanheim statement as a direct referendum on Hagg.

He's actually played OK for a player of his ilk beyond the goals. There has been some marginal improvement in an area or two from last year, though no one denied that being realistic. He's also shooting 25% now (to his credit, he has been more willing to join down low for more dangerous chances) and isn't exactly killing it in the numbers, but he's been up to snuff individually as a depth player, playing with the new worst defenseman on the team. Though Sanheim has seen 30% of his 5v5 time with MacDonald as well, dragging him down accordingly.

By all means, use those 4 games and what should be a 1 point differential to prove a point about their all-encompassing games. Hagg has as many points as Patrick, Konecny, Lindblom, Sanheim combined! He's tied with Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson in points; neither has a goal! He's been better than them too, I gather? It is amusing that Hagg finds a way to put up SSS unsustainable numbers at the start of the season (yet again) to provide for thin ice arguments for those who don't care for the concept of "unsustainable." I certainly group Hakstol there.

Sanheim has the best goal differential at 5v5/ES of any Flyers defenseman -- the most positive outcomes have come with him on the ice. And he's done it with lesser teammates and similar competition. Thus, it can be argued he has been the best. That's how this works, right? Also, very important to note, Sanheim also has a significantly lower OZS% and higher DZS%, which I have been told numerous times matters a great deal with such data.

Of course I kid. I'm sure if passing data was available it wouldn't be close between the two in play creating. I'm not even here to argue against Sanheim's goal differential numbers being unsustainable too and that he could stand to improve. But he played very well last game, and has more than not so far, and has not been rewarded -- an ever-present theme dating back to last year. Hagg hasn't been the problem (so far); that has and will remain such. Even the goal differential isn't doing it for him. Sanheim ascending from #6 to 18-22 minutes every single night, and not being yo-yo'd, is the major difference for this team taking a step forward in personnel. Good luck!
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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I remember Brandon Manning had 7 points in his first 10 games a couple seasons ago. He scored 5 more points in his next 55 games. I don't even need to sh*t on Hagg -- and we really haven't so far -- but some people can't help trying to infer any Sanheim statement as a direct referendum on Hagg.

He's actually played OK for a player of his ilk beyond the goals. There has been some marginal improvement in an area or two from last year, though no one denied that being realistic. He's also shooting 25% now (to his credit, he has been more willing to join down low for more dangerous chances) and isn't exactly killing it in the numbers, but he's been up to snuff individually as a depth player, playing with the new worst defenseman on the team. Though Sanheim has seen 30% of his 5v5 time with MacDonald as well, dragging him down accordingly.

By all means, use those 4 games and what should be a 1 point differential to prove a point about their all-encompassing games. Hagg has as many points as Patrick, Konecny, Lindblom, Sanheim combined! He's tied with Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson in points; neither has a goal! He's been better than them too, I gather? It is amusing that Hagg finds a way to put up SSS unsustainable numbers at the start of the season (yet again) to provide for thin ice arguments for those who don't care for the concept of "unsustainable." I certainly group Hakstol there.

Sanheim has the best goal differential at 5v5/ES of any Flyers defenseman -- the most positive outcomes have come with him on the ice. And he's done it with lesser teammates and similar competition. Thus, it can be argued he has been the best. That's how this works, right? Also, very important to note, Sanheim also has a significantly lower OZS% and higher DZS%, which I have been told numerous times matters a great deal with such data.

Of course I kid. I'm sure if passing data was available it wouldn't be close between the two in play creating. I'm not even here to argue against Sanheim's goal differential numbers being unsustainable too and that he could stand to improve. But he played very well last game, and has more than not so far, and has not been rewarded -- an ever-present theme dating back to last year. Hagg hasn't been the problem (so far); that has and will remain such. Even the goal differential isn't doing it for him. Sanheim ascending from #6 to 18-22 minutes every single night, and not being yo-yo'd, is the major difference for this team taking a step forward in personnel. Good luck!

If this is directed at me, it’s laughable. I’ve simply said I don’t know what more one can expect out of a 5th defenseman than Hagg has given in four games. It is humorous, though, that he gets criticized for his 4 games with 3 points & +1 as a 5 & Sanheim gets excuses. Favorites, anyone?
 

Harhis

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If this is directed at me, it’s laughable. I’ve simply said I don’t know what more one can expect out of a 5th defenseman than Hagg has given in four games. It is humorous, though, that he gets criticized for his 4 games with 3 points & +1 as a 5 & Sanheim gets excuses. Favorites, anyone?
If you are just stat watching your arguments are fine, otherwise not so much. I'm not saying Hägg has been terrible and Sanheim has been really good but your arguments are really poor.
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
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If you are just stat watching your arguments are fine, otherwise not so much. I'm not saying Hägg has been terrible and Sanheim has been really good but your arguments are really poor.
First of all, I’m not sure Magua’s post was even directed at me, because he asserted that people were comparing Hagg to Sanheim, whereas it seemed to me most of the people doing the comparison were Sanheim apologists making excuses.

Second, I’ve long said I think Sanheim is a more talented player than Hagg. But he hasn’t been better than Hagg over 4 games this season. My only argument is that Hagg, for a #5 defenseman, has given — through 4 games — as much as you could expect for a 5D. If you’re criticizing his play, it reeks of bias. And if you think my argument is poor that Hagg has played well as a fifth defenseman in these four games, you’re definitely influenced by bias.
 
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