Dave Hakstol Fired and Scott Gordon Named Interim Head Coach (Discussion Thread)

[baudib1]

I'd keep Gordon as a PK coach.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I'd keep Gordon as a PK coach.

If we get Q, it's kind of up to him as to who the PK coach will be.

 

[baudib1]

I've been looking at Q's record and the extent to which he favors veterans seems questionable. He inherited old teams in St. Louis and Colorado that were established. Chicago was kinda where the Flyers are now. They missed the playoffs, he stepped in early in the year and they went to the conference finals, winning the Cup the next year.

Look how he handled Panarin. Granted, Panarin was not young for a rookie, but there was no easing him into the lineup. No stint in the AHL to get him accustomed to North American hockey. (That stuff makes me laugh btw. It's like no one paid attention to Euros winning Calder Cups and integrating instantly to the NHL for decades). Opening night, rookie year, he's getting 16:50 and scores a goal.

There's Brandon Saad getting 16 mins a night as a 20-year-old after 31 AHL games.

And DeBrincat. There are some organizations (cough) who would probably talk about stuff like him needing to be stronger and bulking up, but he goes straight from juniors to the NHL and starts scoring goals. That's pretty recent, too.

 

[Rebels57]

I've been looking at Q's record and the extent to which he favors veterans seems questionable. He inherited old teams in St. Louis and Colorado that were established. Chicago was kinda where the Flyers are now. They missed the playoffs, he stepped in early in the year and they went to the conference finals, winning the Cup the next year.

Look how he handled Panarin. Granted, Panarin was not young for a rookie, but there was no easing him into the lineup. No stint in the AHL to get him accustomed to North American hockey. (That stuff makes me laugh btw. It's like no one paid attention to Euros winning Calder Cups and integrating instantly to the NHL for decades). Opening night, rookie year, he's getting 16:50 and scores a goal.

There's Brandon Saad getting 16 mins a night as a 20-year-old after 31 AHL games.

And DeBrincat. There are some organizations (cough) who would probably talk about stuff like him needing to be stronger and bulking up, but he goes straight from juniors to the NHL and starts scoring goals. That's pretty recent, too.

Just this year, he used Jokiharju in the top 4 as a 19 year old rookie.

 

[magnumpi]

I've been looking at Q's record and the extent to which he favors veterans seems questionable. He inherited old teams in St. Louis and Colorado that were established. Chicago was kinda where the Flyers are now. They missed the playoffs, he stepped in early in the year and they went to the conference finals, winning the Cup the next year.

Look how he handled Panarin. Granted, Panarin was not young for a rookie, but there was no easing him into the lineup. No stint in the AHL to get him accustomed to North American hockey. (That stuff makes me laugh btw. It's like no one paid attention to Euros winning Calder Cups and integrating instantly to the NHL for decades). Opening night, rookie year, he's getting 16:50 and scores a goal.

There's Brandon Saad getting 16 mins a night as a 20-year-old after 31 AHL games.

And DeBrincat. There are some organizations (cough) who would probably talk about stuff like him needing to be stronger and bulking up, but he goes straight from juniors to the NHL and starts scoring goals. That's pretty recent, too.

If you're pushing the narrative that Q doesn't play young players in the name of defending Hakstol then its pretty easy to pull from his last few seasons in Chicago after the team had won multiple cups, their best players were veterans and there werent too many promising youngsters coming through the system. You build any kind of narrative if you are selective with your data.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Just this year, he used Jokiharju in the top 4 as a 19 year old rookie.

And he showed a lot of promise there too. Kid is good. He also brought in DeBrincat early too.

 

[baudib1]

If you're pushing the narrative that Q doesn't play young players in the name of defending Hakstol then its pretty easy to pull from his last few seasons in Chicago after the team had won multiple cups, their best players were veterans and there werent too many promising youngsters coming through the system. You build any kind of narrative if you are selective with your data.

I'm not pushing any narrative and I wouldn't defend Hakstol for anything. There have been talk that Q favored veterans and that things wouldn't change much. I'm pretty encouraged by looking at how he's handled rookies.

 

[kudymen]

Besides the goaltending being better since Hakstol was let go, it's Gordon/Fletcher slowly learning what garbage to sit/get rid of and who to play more. I haven't checked the TOIs to compare but from watching the games it looks to me like the kids are playing more and in critical situations.

The following does not accent the "critical situations" part of your post: but at least looking at the ATOI per game, you are correct, the "trash" is getting less TOI than before. Again comparing Hak-coached period (this season until 17th DEC) and Gordon-coached period (this season since 18th Dec)

Farmer went down by 2 and a half minutes (13% decrease), Weise 2 and a quarter minute (17% dec), Folin by 5 whopping minutes (30% dec), Torgo by 3 minutes (32% dec), Raffl by almost 2 minutes (14% dec), Hagg by 2 and a half minutes (13% dec). Ghost and Konecny went down by 7 and 6 pct respectively but in their case it is more of usage change than anything else I suspect. Nolan Patrick is heavily affected by yesterday's low TOI - not counting the game, he averages 14:33 under Gordon (49 seconds decrease)

G went up by more than a minute, JvR by almost 2 minutes (12% increase), Lindblom with similar increase (1:49, +15%), Laughton went up by almost 3 minutes (+22%) and Sanheim by more than 5 minutes (+33% a.k.a. no other option) .

Noteworthy as well: Myers jumps into the lineup with more than 16 minutes from the get go, NAK with less time than Ghoul, Vorobyev getting less time from Gordon than Ghoul did from Hak.....

 

[bennysflyers16]

If Q comes in, we need to ensure their is no Vet slop for him to even consider using

 

[magnumpi]

I'm not pushing any narrative and I wouldn't defend Hakstol for anything. There have been talk that Q favored veterans and that things wouldn't change much. I'm pretty encouraged by looking at how he's handled rookies.

wot?
I was agreeing with your statement

 

[Tripod]

Could hire Keefe, then keep Gordon(PK) and Wilson(D). That insulates him with "NHL experience".

Let him hire his own PP guy so he has someone he is familiar with and can be "his guy".

 

[Rich Nixon]

If Q comes in, we need to ensure their is no Vet slop for him to even consider using

I don't really worry about that too much, and I don't take the Blackhawks fans who were bitching and moaning about him all too seriously. Quenneville's not as stubborn Hakstol was, and HF fans on that board, just as this one, will whine interminably just because some lame veteran is playing on the 4th line over some 7th rounder who scored 19 goals in the AHL at age 23.

Here's a wild crazy truth: A team's success is not predicated by one or two players playing over one or two other, younger players in the bottom 6 or on the third pairing. A good coach is one with a well-built, consistent system who is also a very intelligent and responsive in-game manager. Those things are hard to find, and there are very few coaches as good as Quenneville on either front.

If you handed Quenneville this team in September and had it playing his system, it makes the playoffs easily even if The Ghost of Dave Hakstol was making the lineup card every night. It would be hindered, naturally, but it would still be relatively successful. Likewise, if you handed Hakstol one of Quenneville's Cup-winning rosters, you'd see it finishing 5th-6th in the conference and getting obliterated in the playoffs. Ya feel me?

 

[deadhead]

Farmer went down by 2 and a half minutes (13% decrease), Weise 2 and a quarter minute (17% dec), Folin by 5 whopping minutes (30% dec), Torgo by 3 minutes (32% dec), Raffl by almost 2 minutes (14% dec), Hagg by 2 and a half minutes (13% dec). Ghost and Konecny went down by 7 and 6 pct respectively but in their case it is more of usage change than anything else I suspect. Nolan Patrick is heavily affected by yesterday's low TOI - not counting the game, he averages 14:33 under Gordon (49 seconds decrease)

G went up by more than a minute, JvR by almost 2 minutes (12% increase), Lindblom with similar increase (1:49, +15%), Laughton went up by almost 3 minutes (+22%) and Sanheim by more than 5 minutes (+33% a.k.a. no other option) .

Noteworthy as well: Myers jumps into the lineup with more than 16 minutes from the get go, NAK with less time than Ghoul, Vorobyev getting less time from Gordon than Ghoul did from Hak.....

Basically, JVR got healthy, and Laughton got used more.
The only major move was inevitable, Sanheim getting top 4 minutes.

There is nothing very surprising there, last year
Sanheim 16:37 after he returned in March
Patrick 15:35 from February forward
TK 16:05 from January on.
Lindblom came up in late February and played 14:35
and this was during a playoff run.

Young players tend to play more as the season progresses for two reasons:
1) they improve
2) HC has a better feel where they fit with other players

The only things that changed is the PP started scoring at a high rate on the same opportunities, and much, much better goaltending.
1st 31 games: SCF per 60: 48.6, SH 10.71%; HDCF per 60: 25.4, SH 14.81% 12/6 GA/GA
last 35 games: SCF per 60 48.8, SH 16.48%; HDCF per 60: 25.3, SH 19.30% 22/3 GF/GA

The entire increase in offense is due to a higher shot percentage on the PP.

 

[wankstifier]

I want Keefe

 

[kudymen]

The only things that changed is the PP started scoring at a high rate on the same opportunities, and much, much better goaltending.
1st 31 games: SCF per 60: 48.6, SH 10.71%; HDCF per 60: 25.4, SH 14.81% 12/6 GA/GA
last 35 games: SCF per 60 48.8, SH 16.48%; HDCF per 60: 25.3, SH 19.30% 22/3 GF/GA

The entire increase in offense is due to a higher shot percentage on the PP.

Sort of what I was getting at in my previous posts. Goaltending with immense growth in quality, but not really the only thing that changed. Whatever factors helped the PP, they were big help too.

 

[deadhead]

The only change on the PP is they're scoring on a higher percentage of scoring chances.
Same rate of creating those chances, just went from historic lows in shooting % to above average.

They're being dominated at both ends by every metric at ES.

A better coach will help.
Young players maturing will help.
More talent will help.

But coaches aren't miracle workers, and young players take time to mature.
In life, there are rarely easy fixes.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't really worry about that too much, and I don't take the Blackhawks fans who were *****ing and moaning about him all too seriously. Quenneville's not as stubborn Hakstol was, and HF fans on that board, just as this one, will whine interminably just because some lame veteran is playing on the 4th line over some 7th rounder who scored 19 goals in the AHL at age 23.

Here's a wild crazy truth: A team's success is not predicated by one or two players playing over one or two other, younger players in the bottom 6 or on the third pairing. A good coach is one with a well-built, consistent system who is also a very intelligent and responsive in-game manager. Those things are hard to find, and there are very few coaches as good as Quenneville on either front.

If you handed Quenneville this team in September and had it playing his system, it makes the playoffs easily even if The Ghost of Dave Hakstol was making the lineup card every night. It would be hindered, naturally, but it would still be relatively successful. Likewise, if you handed Hakstol one of Quenneville's Cup-winning rosters, you'd see it finishing 5th-6th in the conference and getting obliterated in the playoffs. Ya feel me?

RE: in-game management as a coaching skill

Quenneville consistently had one of the largest jumps in possession metrics when at Home. The man takes advantage of having the last change like few others.

 

[Rich Nixon]

RE: in-game management as a coaching skill

Quenneville consistently had one of the largest jumps in possession metrics when at Home. The man takes advantage of having the last change like few others.

Which is something that neither Hakstol nor Gordon can remotely process. I can't count the number of times, home or away, they've had a commercial break before an offensive zone draw and trotted out Gudas and Hagg behind the first line, up against the opponents’ shutdown set. Even with last change, what's the f***ing point of winning that draw? Hedging your bets?

That's the player usage that's worth paying attention to. It isn't just "ARGHISBDS BUT SLOWFOOT IS GETTIN 8 MINUTES ON TEH FOURTHL LINEEEGJSDLHKG!" It's the positions that the players who matter are put in and how they are deployed throughout the game, in what combinations and situations, etc.

 

[Jtown]

Quenneville
Lavy
Boucher
Boudreau

could all be available.

Quenneville is sitting pretty because he is going to get paid. I think he only comes to philly for a big time contract.

 

[Rich Nixon]

meant to edit, ended up quoting myself

 

[Rich Nixon]

Quenneville
Lavy
Boucher
Boudreau

could all be available.

Quenneville is sitting pretty because he is going to get paid. I think he only comes to philly for a big time contract.

Poile is very, very patient. Laviolette is the second head coach in Predators history: They gave Trotz 16 years. I highly, highly doubt that Laviolette would be fired unless they absolutely flame out and are embarrassed in the first round.

 

[Jtown]

Poile is very, very patient. Laviolette is the second head coach in Predators history: They gave Trotz 16 years. I highly, highly doubt that Laviolette would be fired unless they absolutely flame out and are embarrassed in the first round.

they are currently flaming out and are primed for a first round embarrassment.

 

[Rebels57]

Could hire Keefe, then keep Gordon(PK) and Wilson(D). That insulates him with "NHL experience".

Let him hire his own PP guy so he has someone he is familiar with and can be "his guy".

Im worried we end up with Dallas Eakins if Q passes.

 

[Rebels57]

Poile is very, very patient. Laviolette is the second head coach in Predators history: They gave Trotz 16 years. I highly, highly doubt that Laviolette would be fired unless they absolutely flame out and are embarrassed in the first round.

If the Pens miss the playoffs, I can see them firing Sullivan. That org has no loyalty. They will then pursue Q and it could be a bidding war with us. If we lose out, we then have Sullivan as an option.

 

[baudib1]

I'd love Sullivan here with our young defensemen.