Datsyuk question - broader salary cap issue

[kurt]

Does anyone know how much Datsyuk signed for in Russia? Was it more than the reported 5 mill Holland and the Wings offered?

What I'm kind of wondering is whether the new cap has actually "priced teams out of the market" for certain players, Russian players especially. I have a feeling that if not now, eventually Russian clubs will be able to outbid the NHL. And, I'm sure many Russian players are tempted to play closer to home, in front of family and friends. If this becomes a trend, I'm sure there could be big problems for the National Hockey League. I realize the North American hockey market is strong, but European owners with deep pockets may start cherry-picking some of the world's top players to improve their teams. Especially with entry-level contract restrictions, I could imagine many young players (like Malkin) could even make more money abroad.

Lastly, I know Wings fans and NHL fans in general are sour about the fact that Datsyuk has decided not to play for the Wings until they sweeten the deal. Get over it. Wouldn't you rather work and live close to home than on another continent? I'm sure he's happy right where he is. He doesn't owe his life to the franchise, he's free to make his own career decisions.

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[Ogopogo*]

Does anyone know how much Datsyuk signed for in Russia? Was it more than the reported 5 mill Holland and the Wings offered?

What I'm kind of wondering is whether the new cap has actually "priced teams out of the market" for certain players, Russian players especially. I have a feeling that if not now, eventually Russian clubs will be able to outbid the NHL. And, I'm sure many Russian players are tempted to play closer to home, in front of family and friends. If this becomes a trend, I'm sure there could be big problems for the National Hockey League. I realize the North American hockey market is strong, but European owners with deep pockets may start cherry-picking some of the world's top players to improve their teams. Especially with entry-level contract restrictions, I could imagine many young players (like Malkin) could even make more money abroad.

Lastly, I know Wings fans and NHL fans in general are sour about the fact that Datsyuk has decided not to play for the Wings until they sweeten the deal. Get over it. Wouldn't you rather work and live close to home than on another continent? I'm sure he's happy right where he is. He doesn't owe his life to the franchise, he's free to make his own career decisions.

Russian teams cannot pay what NHL teams are paying. If Datsyuk is getting one penny over $1 million, I would be shocked. This is a negotiating tactic for Datsyuk and it will backfire in his face. He is turning down $5 million from Detroit to get $1 million in Russia.

If Russian teams are actually going to buck up and pay NHL-type dollars, they will lose money. They have smaller arenas and an economy that is nowhere near as powerful as the one in North America.

Where I come from, that is called stupidity.

 

[kurt]

Russian teams cannot pay what NHL teams are paying. If Datsyuk is getting one penny over $1 million, I would be shocked. This is a negotiating tactic for Datsyuk and it will backfire in his face. He is turning down $5 million from Detroit to get $1 million in Russia.

If Russian teams are actually going to buck up and pay NHL-type dollars, they will lose money. They have smaller arenas and an economy that is nowhere near as powerful as the one in North America.

Where I come from, that is called stupidity.

A swiss club offered Crosby 10 mil over 3 years, with a reported multi-million dollar bonus.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2005/07/06/Sports/crosby_lugano050706.html

I'm sure Datsyuk could make over 1 million. I'm fully aware of the fact that the North American hockey market is far superior to markets overseas. However, when you get a billionare philanthropist owner, who knows what could happen.

 

[SJeasy]

From the info I have gathered, it seems that RSL teams are grossing around $10 mil/yr. at best. If they pay a single player $2-3 mil, they have consigned themselves to being in the red. It is up to the NHL to wait them out. The rumors said that Datsyuk wanted $6mil/yr. In Russia, $6mil NHL translates to about $3.5mil Russian because of taxation. Even with differential taxation, the RSL cannot keep going like this indefinitely.

The club teams in the rest of Europe top out at about $300k for a high end player. Their revenue is similar to the RSL and their economics are meant to maintain the club teams (keep the net in the black). Until the NA market undergoes a severe depression, the NHL holds the upper hand long-term. Some players may truly wish to play in their home country, but in the long run, most of the best talent will end up in the NHL. It is up to the NHL to not respond irresponsibly to an individual instance. At this point, a responsible move would be to not draft Russian players so that teams are not subject to blackmail. IMO, the pay for play in the RSL would drop and high-end Russian players would emigrate to sign FA contracts in 3 to 4 years.

 

[Ogopogo*]

A swiss club offered Crosby 10 mil over 3 years, with a reported multi-million dollar bonus.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2005/07/06/Sports/crosby_lugano050706.html

I'm sure Datsyuk could make over 1 million. I'm fully aware of the fact that the North American hockey market is far superior to markets overseas. However, when you get a billionare philanthropist owner, who knows what could happen.

Even a billionaire does not want to lose tons of money on his hockey team forever. Eventually it's not worth it.

 

[garry1221]

i've said it before, if dats signs in russia and zetts signs in sweden then we may see a new trend through the nhl, more US and canadian players drafted as we know there won't be the threat of 'you'll pay this much or i'll go home and play'. i beleive greenstin must be a master of hypnosis as he's gotten all or most of his clients priced out of the nhl and back to russia to play. hmmm... maybe the RSL is lining his pockets?... conspiracy theory i know... still feasable. either way, this happened a couple years back with another of greenstin's clientel on the wings dmitri bykov... one year in the league and he tried to get 1 mil as a 5th...borderline 4th dman. it didn't work for him and we went back to russia and ended up with the same relative stats as he did when he played for the wings... the only thing datsyuk brings is the POTENTIAL to be a 1st line star... but potential does not give him the right to a contract worth 6 mil.

to answer kurts question.... if my employer was willing to pay me even a million bucks i wouldn't even think twice before signing, even if it meant leaving for another continent where the chance to make even more money down the road is open..... i don't know anyone who wouldn't want that... well besides datsyuk it seems

 

[DETROIT SKABOY]

one thing to mention the russian is not taxed so the 2 or 3 mill is more like a 5 or 6 over here

 

[kurt]

to answer kurts question.... if my employer was willing to pay me even a million bucks i wouldn't even think twice before signing, even if it meant leaving for another continent where the chance to make even more money down the road is open..... i don't know anyone who wouldn't want that... well besides datsyuk it seems

Haha, thanks for your perspective.

If we're going to compare apples to apples, let's say one job is in Hong Kong for 5 mil a year, and the other job is in your hometown. Perhaps it's less money, maybe 3 or 4 mil per. Keep in mind, Pavel is Russian.

I'm definitely not of the mindset that "a player should be happy to make one million dollars". A player generates a certain amount of revenue, and should be entitled to that revenue. I'm happy to see players stand up for themselves and their paycheques.

 

[shadoz19]

one thing to mention the russian is not taxed so the 2 or 3 mill is more like a 5 or 6 over here

Are you sure? I've heard they still pay a tax but still much less than the U.S.

 

[SJeasy]

Are you sure? I've heard they still pay a tax but still much less than the U.S.

Approximately 12% plus local taxes. Collection is not as rigid as well.

 

[GSC2k2*]

A swiss club offered Crosby 10 mil over 3 years, with a reported multi-million dollar bonus.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2005/07/06/Sports/crosby_lugano050706.html

Um, that was exposed as a bunch of baloney. There was no such offer.

I'm sure Datsyuk could make over 1 million. I'm fully aware of the fact that the North American hockey market is far superior to markets overseas. However, when you get a billionare philanthropist owner, who knows what could happen.

I fail to understand how people are "sure" anyone can get more than $1 mil in Russia. Who the hell knows? As for "philanthropist" owners, are you kidding me? Russian mafia-and-hockey ties are well known and established. The RSL is one big money laundering scheme.

 

[Captain Ron]

Kings prospect Yannick Lehoux ( A career minor league player ) supposedly was signed to a one year $1 million contract to play for Dynamo Moscow. If Dynamo can afford to pay a guy of Lehoux's calibre $1 million then they could definitely afford to give a guy like Datsyuk $3 million or more.

 

[Fan.At]

I think some russian teams definitly have the money to outbid NHL teams. Look at what Roman Abramovich did with Chelsea in soccer. He is putting hundreds of millions into that team and it doesn't seem to hurt him...

If teams of the RSL are led by guys like him, look for less and less russian players in the nhl...

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm not sure how much Jagr made last year, but according to this article I found, Kovalchuk was the highest player in the Russian league last year, before Jagr signed with Avangard Omsk. Kovalchuk was only making $1.6 M, so I think a number around $1.5 M is probably a good estimate for Datsyuk. There are a lot less NHLers in that league now though, so it's possible I guess that they could have afforded to offer Datsyuk more.

The right wing, who won the Art Ross Trophy as the NHL’s top scorer for four consecutive seasons between 1998 and 2001, will be the highest-paid player in the Russian league, topping the $1.6 million salary of AK Bars Kazan forward Ilja Kovalchuk.

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/11/09/jagromsk1.shtml

 

[shadoz19]

I'm not sure how much Jagr made last year, but according to this article I found, Kovalchuk was the highest player in the Russian league last year, before Jagr signed with Avangard Omsk. Kovalchuk was only making $1.6 M, so I think a number around $1.5 M is probably a good estimate for Datsyuk. There are a lot less NHLers in that league now though, so it's possible I guess that they could have afforded to offer Datsyuk more.



http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/11/09/jagromsk1.shtml

http://www.freep.com/sports/redwings/wings6e_20050906.htm

Even if, as expected, there is an out clause, this deal looks bad for the Wings. One of Avangard's sponsors is Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich, who last season enabled Jaromir Jagr to pocket $400,000 a month after taxes. It is not known how much Datsyuk signed for, but according to Reuters, Datsyuk told Russian media that "I think I am worth at least what (Dany) Heatley or (Joe) Thornton got from their deals," which is a little above $6 million annually.

Assuming a 12% rate, then Jagr was getting paid a little over $450,000 a month. Not sure how many months he got paid for.

 

[tmangos]

Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/2005/wings/0509/06/D01-304766.htm
... the Wings on Monday lost restricted free-agent forward Pavel Datsyuk to the Russian Superleague team Avangard Omsk in Siberia. No figures were confirmed, but reports out of Russia had Datsyuk signing with Avangard for one year at $6 million.

Wow ...

 

[Kimi]

Omsk can pay Dats more than the NHL. Roman could pay his contract with out even notice it. Jagr got a big contact there.

 

[hockeydadx2*]

In the end, who cares if the Russians end up staying home? It's not the end of the world. Not to sound close-minded here, but while I appreciate the ability of guys like Kovalchuk and Kovalev, they don't make or break the league. I don't blame the Russians for staying home if the money is comparable; if it were me, I'd certainly make that choice, too, more than likely.

The ability of the RSL to spend big bucks is not unlimited; they aren't going to have very many teams with a payroll of $30 million. Hence, the overall opportunities for the Russian stars will be very limited. Even now, only a few of the truly good players are opting to play in Mother Russia.

As a Pens fan, I'd hate to never have Malkin here, but in the overall scheme of things for the league overall it matters not a whit.

 

[Prof_it]

So with the new CBA in place we are seeing the marketplace being tested and eventually it will even out. I don't think we should claim the sky is falling and the NHL will no longer employ the top talent in the world. If anything, what we are seeing is that Datsyuk's skills are valued at different prices in different places. I don't think that is unusual.

What this shows is just how different the game of hockey is in different places. The value and emphasis on skill/speed/size/etc is not the same. This is a good thing. I enjoy seeing different styles of play, new ideas, innovation. Does N.American hockey have competition...Yes...it always has, and that is a posititive for the overall health and growth of the sport.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/2005/wings/0509/06/D01-304766.htm
... the Wings on Monday lost restricted free-agent forward Pavel Datsyuk to the Russian Superleague team Avangard Omsk in Siberia. No figures were confirmed, but reports out of Russia had Datsyuk signing with Avangard for one year at $6 million.

Wow ...

Everybody needs to relax.

So, a couple of rich Russians are comfortable with losing money in an attempt to build a winning hockey team. How long do you really think that will last? How long did it last in the NHL?

This little speed bump will eventually go away. Smart business people eventually realize that losing millions of dollars every year is not worth building a winner.

So what if the NHL loses a few Russians. We did fine before they started coming over in 1989.