Datsyuk - Nature vs. nurture

[The Zermanator]

Something I've thought of a lot recently is what a unique and extremely rare experience Datsyuk had coming into the league as a rookie. I became a Wings fan when I was about 11 during the '01-'02 season. Yzerman was my favourite player growing up. Had the pleasure of watching the Cup run in '02.

Enough has been said about the '02 team as a whole, but imagine it from Datsyuk's perspective. You're a rookie from deep in Russia, small but offensively talented with unique playing style/skills, coming to North America to play with this:

Yzerman
Lidstrom
Fedorov
Hull
Larionov
Shanahan
Chelios
Robitaille
Hasek

I mean, just in terms of role models, unbelievable.

And then there's these guys to leave their own impressions on a rookie:

Draper
Maltby
McCarty
Holmstrom

Talk about a unique environment for a rookie, especially a dynamically skilled one, to get his start. Not to mention he was playing under one the most legendary coaches in league history.

Does Datsyuk become the player he did (or similar to it) without these influences? Obviously Bowman would have had an influence as the coach but specifically the players, did that experience mould him? Or would he have become the Magic Man anyway?

Click to read more...

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I think he might be a bit worse if not for Bowman and other players. I don't think he turns into the player he did now if Dave Lewi coached him without Yzerman, Shannaban and other. or even Babcock

 

[Henkka]

Datsyuk has said that Brett Hull made biggest impact for his play. Golden Brett teached where to pass the puck so it would be on the most dangerous shooting sector. And he did pass. Rest is history.

 

[DanZ]

They taught him to play a well-rounded two-way game, but those hands... You can't teach that.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I think it's certain that the surrounding cast had a huge influence on his development.

It's hard to say how much. Of course he had raw talent regardless. But I don't think he would be nearly the same player if he had landed on one of the bottom-feeders instead.

 

[Henkka]

I think it's certain that the surrounding cast had a huge influence on his development.

I've started thinking same scenarios from other teams...

Like Teräväinen et Chicago. he is a natural playmaker, who can get all the good things from Kane and become a superb playmaker. And he is alsoa natural Center (so far forced to wing), and if he learns good things from Toews, he will be phenomenal player.

Great supporting cast and mentors mean a lot. Just look at the Oilers...

You learn from the best.

Like Lidström, first he learned to play defence from McCrimmon, then he learned offence from Coffey. Then was paired with Murphy... all the time all-time greats.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Pav definitely learned how to be an every day player from many of the best. The Wings developed his game and he had character guys surrounding him showing him how to eat, train, practice, ect... Every great player works to be great. Having so many great players around instilled the culture of greatness in the organization. That is why you need vets around.

 

[newfy]

It helps but to be able to process the game and stick handle at that level is a completely genetic thing. He had that ability to process the game which helped him because he was a late starter by NHL standards (started at 9 I believe). Playing with those guys you would pick up some good habits and everything and learn a few tricks but you cant teach what Datsyuk has

 

[Frk It]

Datsyuk is maybe the most instinctive hockey player, or even athlete in general, that I have seen.

Having great coaches and great mentors definitely helped, but I think he would have been a great player regardless.

He probably received the most help on the defensive side in that aspect (coaching & mentors), but I think he would have become a offensive dynamo regardless.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Datsyuk is maybe the most instinctive hockey player, or even athlete in general, that I have seen.

Having great coaches and great mentors definitely helped, but I think he would have been a great player regardless.

He probably received the most help on the defensive side in that aspect (coaching & mentors), but I think he would have become a offensive dynamo regardless.

Easier to teach defense than offense, as they say.

 

[waltdetroit]

Don't forget Larionov who was arguably 1 of the top 5 Russian players ever, He was called the ol' professor for teaching those on the team

Also, if you believe you can learn from a bad example, Sean Avery was on the team

 

[PullHard]

Assuming he was drafted by us or anyone else but had a "normal" entrance into the league - still has the skills but maybe not on the same level in terms of puck distribution assuming he wasn't playing with a Hull type goal scorer. I feel like having a guy bury the passes that easily and often really builds confidence.

I also doubt his two way game becomes as strong if he plays for most other coaches than Bowman and Babcock and doesn't have guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Larionov, etc around.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Assuming he was drafted by us or anyone else but had a "normal" entrance into the league - still has the skills but maybe not on the same level in terms of puck distribution assuming he wasn't playing with a Hull type goal scorer. I feel like having a guy bury the passes that easily and often really builds confidence.

I also doubt his two way game becomes as strong if he plays for most other coaches than Bowman and Babcock and doesn't have guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Larionov, etc around.

While the start certainly helped, I think his bond with Zetterberg actually drove both to greatness. Yes they both had examples to follow. But they roomed with each other, they played with each other a lot and according both guys were best friends on the team early on and remain incredibly close.

There is a reason we lump them together so much, life is very different for both guys without the other one. Are they good players? Absolutely, not sure they are both top 10 players in the game for several years.

It is easy to look at what the vets talk taught them. But they are self-starters and the pride they have in themselves is massive. You still see it today where they alternate this team needs me to deliver with special performances.

 

[Henkka]

And as the vet postition D&Z are now, it will be a key to develop guys like Larkin to take the torch with same or ever better knowledge some day.

Everybody who suggests Datsyuk and Zetterberg traded should be banned from here instantly. Or at least will be quided to madhouse. It's a bigger benefit for team future to have them than sell them. Ever.

Former examples prove our way right.

 

[Retire91]

Datsyuk has said that Brett Hull made biggest impact for his play. Golden Brett teached where to pass the puck so it would be on the most dangerous shooting sector. And he did pass. Rest is history.

I remember that line it was Zetts - Daytsuk - Hull and Mickey Redmond called it the two kids and a goat line LOL

 

[waltdetroit]

I remember that line it was Zetts - Daytsuk - Hull and Mickey Redmond called it the two kids and a goat line LOL

I believe it was Pavel Datsyuk, Brett Hull and Boyd Devereaux

 

[r0bert8841]

While Datsyuk had tons of talent, I am sure the vets taught him unquantifiable things off the ice such as how to be a professional, training, mentality, drive to win, keeping your ego in check, etc... Not to mention getting praise from any legend must do wonders for your confidence. Being able to practice everyday, and get tips from these guys can be incredible as well.

There are lots of extremely skilled hockey players, but very few put it all together like Pav has, and I always suspected the vets were a large part of that.

 

[PullHard]

I believe it was Pavel Datsyuk, Brett Hull and Boyd Devereaux

Both existed. The line (with the name) started with Devereaux, but when Zetterberg made the team he took over his spot.

 

[Retire91]

I believe it was Pavel Datsyuk, Brett Hull and Boyd Devereaux

I remember Boyd I liked him

 

[Henkka]

Dastyuk started with three D's.

Devereaux - Datsyuk - Dandenault.

 

[waltdetroit]

Larionov wrote: "I remember Datsyuk made a couple turnovers in a game when he first came to Detroit at age 23. Players on the team like Brett Hull, Brendan Shanahan, Steve Yzerman and myself had to tell him, "Pavel, just keep doing what you're doing." Thankfully, Scotty Bowman had the wisdom to see his potential. If he was on a different team with a different coach who did not appreciate that kind of unique skill, Datsyuk might have been out of the league. He would be playing in the KHL tonight

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2015/02/23/igor-larionov-pavel-datsyuk/23889941/

 

[The Zermanator]

Larionov wrote: "I remember Datsyuk made a couple turnovers in a game when he first came to Detroit at age 23. Players on the team like Brett Hull, Brendan Shanahan, Steve Yzerman and myself had to tell him, "Pavel, just keep doing what you're doing." Thankfully, Scotty Bowman had the wisdom to see his potential. If he was on a different team with a different coach who did not appreciate that kind of unique skill, Datsyuk might have been out of the league. He would be playing in the KHL tonight

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2015/02/23/igor-larionov-pavel-datsyuk/23889941/

Wow, awesome find! Love to get firsthand insight like this.

 

[Henkka]

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/miracle-on-ice-hockey-russia/

Here's the whole article.

For me, biggest Hockey event ever in my life has been that Canada Cup 1987 Final Series, Canada vs. Soviet Union. Ultimate best teams of that time did meet from East and West. Probably the best teams ever.

As an European, on those days, I knew more of Soviet style of play and did absolute love it. I didn't like the canadian physical style of play, but also that canadian team was skilled and the best iced ever.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Hawechukc, Yzerman, Mike Gartner, Sutter brothers etc.

Coffey, Murphy, Bourque etc. Grant Fuhr on the net.

And that Soviet Union team was on their prime with that 1st line Makarov-Larionov-Krutov, Fetisov-Kasatonov.

2nd line wasn't bad either, Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov, Gusarov etc... becomin NHLrs. Nemchinov at 4th line etc.

Soviets did play better hockey and pushed Gretzky and Lemieux really far to catch their level... and they kind of did. Gretzky was phenomenal as an individual (like 0+5 in on the last game), and Lemieux was too, others looked a bit lost. They learned a lot from Russians, how to be more creative.

Every game did end 6-5, 5-6, 6-5. and the 3rd game was clinched in overtime. Nothing beats this series ever. Nothing. Best hockey ever played.

***

We did the same with the Russian Five, and on that day I became a Red Wings fan. That is still the style of play I love most, I like also other elements nowadays and have a nice mix of everything, skill and physicality, but that's the ultimate dream. To see some team play like those Soviets on those days.

Like Datsyuk plays. He plays exactly that game those Sovjets did play. The spirit lives in him. I'd like to have 12 Datsyuks on a same team, like they almost had on those Soviet Union days, when every russian junior was educated to be creative.




This is what I'm talking about.

In reality, my generation dominated that decade, winning Gold at four World Championships and two Olympics. I was lucky enough to finally make it out of the U.S.S.R. in 1989. I played for 12 seasons and won three Stanley Cups, and I never changed the way I played. I was 5’10”, 165 pounds. If I was just coming into the league today, I would probably be considered too small. I would be sent down to the minors after my first or second neutral zone turnover.

Larionov whacks the nail in the coffin with that quote.

He was "too small" like Datsyuk is.

Too small like Johnny Gaudreau and Tyler Johnson, and Torey Krug.