Danbury NAHL

[mk80]

The NAHL Wilkesbarre/Scranton Knights relocated to Danbury, and have assumed the Danbury Hat Tricks identity. Not sure if that means the FPHL is no more or not. When the FPHL Hat Tricks were orginally announced the press releases did mention they wanted to pursue an NAHL franchise as well. But with FPHL, NAHL, NA3HL, and NWHL all housed in the same building I feel like one will have to give sooner or later and assuming the current FPHL identity and the Hat Tricks Coach/GM coming from that same role with the "pro" team I think are two indications pointing toward the FPHL being cut.

NAHL announces relocation of WBS Knights to Danbury, Connecticut

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[Barclay Donaldson]

First off, good on the NAHL for actually going into markets that can draw fans. I hated them bashing the USPHL model, but then hypocritically more or less using it themselves with NJ Titans and in WBS. WBS was never going to draw and the NAHL knew this even without looking at their rink and market suitability. There are not many places on the East Coast that could draw for junior hockey. Lewiston and Danbury are the only two I can think of with maybe one or two others at the very most.

What does the situation look like in Danbury? The press release says the new name is the Danbury Jr. Hat Tricks, which would insinuate some sort of cooperation and definitely coexistence with the FPHL Hat Tricks. Perhaps some sort of Utica Comets-Utica College cooperation where there is a sharing of tickets and attention? There certainly is not enough to go around for both to draw 1000 per night. Heck, Danbury struggled many nights with 500 people in attendance. But, the press release is the only place that says Danbury Jr. Hat Tricks, everywhere else just says Danbury Hat Tricks. Regardless, even if they draw 500 actual fans per game, it is far better than some of the other teams in the division.

 

[mk80]

First off, good on the NAHL for actually going into markets that can draw fans. I hated them bashing the USPHL model, but then hypocritically more or less using it themselves with NJ Titans and in WBS. WBS was never going to draw and the NAHL knew this even without looking at their rink and market suitability. There are not many places on the East Coast that could draw for junior hockey. Lewiston and Danbury are the only two I can think of with maybe one or two others at the very most.

What does the situation look like in Danbury? The press release says the new name is the Danbury Jr. Hat Tricks, which would insinuate some sort of cooperation and definitely coexistence with the FPHL Hat Tricks. Perhaps some sort of Utica Comets-Utica College cooperation where there is a sharing of tickets and attention? There certainly is not enough to go around for both to draw 1000 per night. Heck, Danbury struggled many nights with 500 people in attendance. But, the press release is the only place that says Danbury Jr. Hat Tricks, everywhere else just says Danbury Hat Tricks. Regardless, even if they draw 500 actual fans per game, it is far better than some of the other teams in the division.

YeaI still think they cut FPHL out despite the "Jr" added into the name, considering the head coach/gm from this season is going to coach the junior team. I think that is probably the biggest indication.

As for the East Division as a whole, I agree it will be helpful having another stronger market. The league rushed to create the division originally to combat the USPHL, and sacrificed some stability to do so.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

YeaI still think they cut FPHL out despite the "Jr" added into the name, considering the head coach/gm from this season is going to coach the junior team. I think that is probably the biggest indication.

As for the East Division as a whole, I agree it will be helpful having another stronger market. The league rushed to create the division originally to combat the USPHL, and sacrificed some stability to do so.

If that ownership group were to be done with the FPHL, it would not be a good look for the league. Just when they look like they are world beaters with a plan, it could fall apart very quickly.

The East Division has many problems that need to be solved. Jamestown should be drawing more than 400 per game in season 2. Maryland draws surprisingly better than expected. Maine's numbers were not promising, even for season 1. But the NAHL needs to spring into action with NJ and Northeast all need to follow the WBS move because free-to-play junior markets do exist out in the region but require some digging. We all know the NAHL wants that location close to Boston and NYC where they can hold big events, so I doubt they pack up. I can still think of half a dozen places that could support free-to-play hockey better than North Attleboro.

 

[BOS358]

Not rhetorical, but where would they go? The region is loaded with competition in the form of college and pro teams. Danbury makes sense, Lewiston only happened due to the USPHL placing a team nearby. I'm really drawing blanks on where else in New England they could have a team.

By the way, not sure if it was mentioned before, but the Generals' average attendance of 305 is hilarious. Their rink looks like it would have problems holding that many people and I've heard they don't even charge admission due to the lack of fans (I can't confirm, as I have never found a Generals game that compelling.)

 

[hockeydude12345]

New coach of Danbury is very shady. Fired from a AAA program in Jersey for taking bribes from parents to play their child.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Not rhetorical, but where would they go? The region is loaded with competition in the form of college and pro teams. Danbury makes sense, Lewiston only happened due to the USPHL placing a team nearby. I'm really drawing blanks on where else in New England they could have a team.

Places that would draw better than North Attleboro? I have a few ideas, feel free to disagree or point out inaccuracies. Two disclaimers: first, that is a low mark to beat, and second, this is only contingent upon market and rink suitability, not potential ownership, the most important part of a franchise.

1. Hyannis Youth and Community Center, Barnstable, MA; A region that has a history of supporting teams that just show up. The Cape Cod Cubs of the old IJHL somehow averaged paid attendance of 600 with a total attendance of 1500 (source: Cubs: A home ice advantage and YouTube videos corroborate a packed house). Given a few years, with the outreach and investment previous teams didn't engage in, it could become an excellent junior hockey market.
2. JFK Memorial Coliseum, Manchester, NH; A community proven to come out en masse when they like a team and feel like a part of it. No hard evidence of a ECHL return soon. If they have the city to themselves, there is no reason why a team wouldn't bring in a lot more than the Generals.
3. Peter W. Foote Vietnam Veterans Memorial Skating Rink, North Adams, MA; an old Fed market that did really well (480) considering the team was announced shortly before the season began and never marketed to the community before word got out about the horrible ownership. As an expanded cookie cutter Mass. state rink with a capacity of barely more than 1000, it is not the best facility. But, the community supports their summer collegiate baseball team very well, but the northern Berkshire region could definitely become a solid, if unspectacular, junior market.
4. Keene Community Ice Arena, Keene NH; a smaller community with a smaller rink, but still wouldn't be the smallest in the league. Good community and business support for all sports, including the summer collegiate baseball team which averages 1500/game. Even the college club team draws well. The rink is an issue, but Janesville shows that it isn't about the rink, it's about how many people are in it.

I admit I might have gotten carried away a little bit, as the others I have behind these ones are a bit of a stretch. I simply set the bar as being better than North Attleboro, which is bringing in what? 30 people per game if you're counting everyone in the facility not playing in the game?

 

[mjhfb]

Places that would draw better than North Attleboro? I have a few ideas, feel free to disagree or point out inaccuracies. Two disclaimers: first, that is a low mark to beat, and second, this is only contingent upon market and rink suitability, not potential ownership, the most important part of a franchise.

1. Hyannis Youth and Community Center, Barnstable, MA; A region that has a history of supporting teams that just show up. The Cape Cod Cubs of the old IJHL somehow averaged paid attendance of 600 with a total attendance of 1500 (source: Cubs: A home ice advantage and YouTube videos corroborate a packed house). Given a few years, with the outreach and investment previous teams didn't engage in, it could become an excellent junior hockey market.
2. JFK Memorial Coliseum, Manchester, NH; A community proven to come out en masse when they like a team and feel like a part of it. No hard evidence of a ECHL return soon. If they have the city to themselves, there is no reason why a team wouldn't bring in a lot more than the Generals.
3. Peter W. Foote Vietnam Veterans Memorial Skating Rink, North Adams, MA; an old Fed market that did really well (480) considering the team was announced shortly before the season began and never marketed to the community before word got out about the horrible ownership. As an expanded cookie cutter Mass. state rink with a capacity of barely more than 1000, it is not the best facility. But, the community supports their summer collegiate baseball team very well, but the northern Berkshire region could definitely become a solid, if unspectacular, junior market.
4. Keene Community Ice Arena, Keene NH; a smaller community with a smaller rink, but still wouldn't be the smallest in the league. Good community and business support for all sports, including the summer collegiate baseball team which averages 1500/game. Even the college club team draws well. The rink is an issue, but Janesville shows that it isn't about the rink, it's about how many people are in it.

I admit I might have gotten carried away a little bit, as the others I have behind these ones are a bit of a stretch. I simply set the bar as being better than North Attleboro, which is bringing in what? 30 people per game if you're counting everyone in the facility not playing in the game?

Another stretch - how about re-opening the old Eastern States Coliseum, former home of the AHL Springfield Indians and Springfield Olympics Juniors? Tons of parking and nostalgia.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Another stretch - how about re-opening the old Eastern States Coliseum, former home of the AHL Springfield Indians and Springfield Olympics Juniors? Tons of parking and nostalgia.

The Big E in West Side? 5 minutes away from the AHL Springfield Thunderbirds, 30 minutes from nationally ranked UMass-Amherst, 30 minutes from AHL Hartford Wolfpack, no ice plant, and a laundry list of other issues. There's a stretch and then there is this. I grew up and my parents now live a few towns over. I am surprised that place is still suitable for the horse shows.

 

[BOS358]

I admit I might have gotten carried away a little bit, as the others I have behind these ones are a bit of a stretch. I simply set the bar as being better than North Attleboro,

Haha, yeah, that's a pretty low bar. Not hard to outdraw North Attleboro. I think the Boston Harbor Wolves drew better when they played their home games at BU. I was thinking of viable markets in New England with NAHL-spec rinks. That would be more difficult. But yeah, you could have the games at the Cleveland Circle DCR rink and they'd still get more fans.

 

[BOS358]

New coach of Danbury is very shady. Fired from a AAA program in Jersey for taking bribes from parents to play their child.

Don't get me started on that guy. I have nothing but contempt for him, but it will be hilarious to watch from the sidelines. Will this be the second coming of the Albert Lea Thunder?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Haha, yeah, that's a pretty low bar. Not hard to outdraw North Attleboro. I think the Boston Harbor Wolves drew better when they played their home games at BU. I was thinking of viable markets in New England with NAHL-spec rinks. That would be more difficult. But yeah, you could have the games at the Cleveland Circle DCR rink and they'd still get more fans.

I would definitely say Barnstable's rink is acceptable for the NAHL. It isn't a full out arena, but has full seating on two sides. It is certainly miles better than Janesville, Chippewa, New Mexico, the usual East Division suspects and St. Cloud, and at least level with Aberdeen, Bismark, Austin and Springfield.

But as far as NAHL-spec rinks without a full-time tenant, regardless of market suitability I can think of a few more. Olympia in West Springfield, Chelmsford Forum, New England Sports Center's first rink on the right. Obviously none of them would ever be anywhere near capable of supporting a NAHL team.

 

[mk80]

When it comes to the Generals, overlooking attendance is easy when you factor in their ability to provide tons of scouting opportunities for the entire east division when they pay the Generals a visit, they may not be the best market in terms of fan support, but they are very strategic location. Especially considering when the division was originally formed to block the USPHL/NCDC other than Johnstown in lacked more traditional NAHL markets.

Now looking at the East you have Johnstown which is still arguably the most successful franchise, Maryland who has been a very solid addition, Maine, New Jersey, Jamestown, Northeast, and now Danbury. The division is slowly transforming from the haphazardly thrown together cluster of teams, to more of a "typical" NAHL division in terms of it's markets.

 

[BOS358]

When it comes to the Generals, overlooking attendance is easy when you factor in their ability to provide tons of scouting opportunities for the entire east division when they pay the Generals a visit, they may not be the best market in terms of fan support, but they are very strategic location. Especially considering when the division was originally formed to block the USPHL/NCDC

Exactly. The NAHL threw their own standards and regulations out the window in order to operate in "strategic locations" to ramp up a turf war. North Attleboro was the worst of that (the team even played "home" games at other rinks because their home wasn't ready for opening day,) but Philadelphia, NJ, and WBS were all part of it. All of those organizations engaged in the same funding practices as the USPHL/ NCDC teams but pretended otherwise and had the league look the other way. If anybody wants to counter with "but the USPHL does that," well, that is exactly my point.

As Barclay had articulated above, the number of viable markets with NAHL-spec rinks in the Northeast is hovering around zero.

 

[CB1]

Exactly. The NAHL threw their own standards and regulations out the window in order to operate in "strategic locations" to ramp up a turf war. North Attleboro was the worst of that (the team even played "home" games at other rinks because their home wasn't ready for opening day,) but Philadelphia, NJ, and WBS were all part of it. All of those organizations engaged in the same funding practices as the USPHL/ NCDC teams but pretended otherwise and had the league look the other way. If anybody wants to counter with "but the USPHL does that," well, that is exactly my point.

As Barclay had articulated above, the number of viable markets with NAHL-spec rinks in the Northeast is hovering around zero.

This is all very interesting reading! When you say "engaged in the same funding practices" are we talking about the teams being subsidized by other teams in the league (like the USPHL does for NCDC) and/or teams maybe charging various "fees" to play, even though it's tuition free?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

This is all very interesting reading! When you say "engaged in the same funding practices" are we talking about the teams being subsidized by other teams in the league (like the USPHL does for NCDC) and/or teams maybe charging various "fees" to play, even though it's tuition free?

NAHL owners cannot charge NAHL players tuition. Free-to-play is free-to-play, you can't charge playing related fees and players only pay for housing. League finds Thunder allowed ‘pay-to-play’. Ironically, the only guy stupid enough to try it is the Fed's main backer, Barry Soskin.

What happens is many NAHL owners also own NA3HL teams. Just off the top of my head, I know the owner of New Jersey, Northeast, Danbury, Chippewa, Janesville, Texas, Amarillo and St. Cloud all own one or multiple NA3 teams. There is not a flat out USPHL-NCDC fee in the NAHL, the lower teams are run at a profit to help offset the costs of the NAHL team. Owners also fill their money-making camps with hundreds of players trying to make their NAHL team.

At its best it is deceptive advertising, at its worst it is hypocrisy on a massive level.

 

[mk80]

NAHL owners cannot charge NAHL players tuition. Free-to-play is free-to-play, you can't charge playing related fees and players only pay for housing. League finds Thunder allowed ‘pay-to-play’. Ironically, the only guy stupid enough to try it is the Fed's main backer, Barry Soskin.

What happens is many NAHL owners also own NA3HL teams. Just off the top of my head, I know the owner of New Jersey, Northeast, Danbury, Chippewa, Janesville, Texas, Amarillo and St. Cloud all own one or multiple NA3 teams. There is not a flat out USPHL-NCDC fee in the NAHL, the lower teams are run at a profit to help offset the costs of the NAHL team. Owners also fill their money-making camps with hundreds of players trying to make their NAHL team.

At its best it is deceptive advertising, at its worst it is hypocrisy on a massive level.

Adding onto the bolded: the Austin Bruins own the NA3 Rochester Grizzlies

I think as time has gone and the USPHL and other leagues have put more pressure on the NAHL/USA Hockey, it is safe to say the NAHL has relaxed on it's own policies in order to fight these turf wars. While it is hypocritical, I will say I think that model works best and is somewhat needed to survive in the New England region like we see for many of the East Division teams who operate with that model, plus including ones like Maine and Maryland who don't own 3HL teams (at least not this year as Maine previously did) but they operate entire youth/AAA programs.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Adding onto the bolded: the Austin Bruins own the NA3 Rochester Grizzlies

I think as time has gone and the USPHL and other leagues have put more pressure on the NAHL/USA Hockey, it is safe to say the NAHL has relaxed on it's own policies in order to fight these turf wars. While it is hypocritical, I will say I think that model works best and is somewhat needed to survive in the New England region like we see for many of the East Division teams who operate with that model, plus including ones like Maine and Maryland who don't own 3HL teams (at least not this year as Maine previously did) but they operate entire youth/AAA programs.

I like the Maryland model. The rink runs a well-organized youth travel program all the way down as well as an EHL team, all outside and unaffiliated with the NAHL team. They heavily market the team in Baltimore, try to break even with ticket sales and sponsorships and do engage in fair operating practices. I accepted long ago that fundraising through camps is just how North American juniors will survive. But if there is a correct way of doing a NAHL team on the hockey-saturated, junior-apathetic East Coast of the United States, Maryland is doing it.

What I am against is selling bs to players and flat out taking advantage of players. No one can outdo the USPHL with this practice. But, it is difficult to say the NAHL model when they engage in this practice just as often, simply not to the extent.

Not everyone is going to be the South Division where attendance below 1000 is unusual. However, a league is only as good as the company and principles it keeps. They broke their principles to try and quash the USPHL-NCDC. My thought process is that they didn't let the old EJHL power brokers join their league a decade ago because of their business practices. What was the point if half the league ended up using essentially the same exact thing, most of them right next door to those people they shut out?

 

[BOS358]

While it is hypocritical, I will say I think that model works best and is somewhat needed to survive in the New England region like we see for many of the East Division teams who operate with that model, plus including ones like Maine and Maryland who don't own 3HL teams (at least not this year as Maine previously did) but they operate entire youth/AAA programs.

Agreed 100%. The Generals, Titans, and Maine all have youth teams under their umbrella that subsidize the NAHL team. Plenty of others have (rightfully) bemoaned the escalating costs of youth hockey, particularly at the midget level, so what's another thousand if it keeps the junior team afloat?

It's worth noting that prior to the formation of the East division, the closest to New England that the NAHL got was Rochester, NY, and only for one season. Of course, back then, standards and integrity mattered.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Agreed 100%. The Generals, Titans, and Maine all have youth teams under their umbrella that subsidize the NAHL team. Plenty of others have (rightfully) bemoaned the escalating costs of youth hockey, particularly at the midget level, so what's another thousand if it keeps the junior team afloat?

It's worth noting that prior to the formation of the East division, the closest to New England that the NAHL got was Rochester, NY, and only for one season. Of course, back then, standards and integrity mattered.

IDK that the Maine Nordiques Academy is subsidizing the NAHL Franchise, it is an extension of the NAHL franchise, but Dr. Antonucci owns the Colisee now outright

 

[BOS358]

IDK that the Maine Nordiques Academy is subsidizing the NAHL Franchise, it is an extension of the NAHL franchise, but Dr. Antonucci owns the Colisee now outright

Great point. Maine is (per the NAHL website) averaging about 1100 fans per game, so they probably don't need to do that. The others, well...you know the rest.