Dan Bickley, Monkey Poop, the Arizona Coyotes, and NHL Expansion to Las Vegas

[Dolemite]

My rebuttal to Bickley's latest column.

https://thenhlhotlist.wordpress.com...izona-coyotes-and-nhl-expansion-to-las-vegas/

Click to read more...

 

[letowskie]

Both sides have interesting arguments.

I do have to point to some areas of doom and gloom that never materialized though. Like Ana expansion didn't really make LAK less viable, and Fla expansion has had minimal impact on TBL.

 

[XX]

This business will all be lost to Las Vegas if an NHL expansion team ever materializes.

No evidence of this being a thing at all. None. How many people are cross shopping Vegas with golfing in Scottsdale? Of those people, how many are going to use the hockey team as a deal breaker? You know there are teams in other warm places like Florida, right?

 

[Dolemite]

No evidence of this being a thing at all. None. How many people are cross shopping Vegas with golfing in Scottsdale? Of those people, how many are going to use the hockey team as a deal breaker? You know there are teams in other warm places like Florida, right?

With cheap seats (compared to markets like Toronto)?

 

[Bondurant]

I don't think people would alter plans to visit Phoenix and opt for Vegas instead. How many people come here on hockey vacations anyway? Do you have any data to back your claims?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I don't think Vegas is a huge detractor. Vegas is a great place to visit if you want to hit casinos or go to overpriced shows. But the city and environs are a wasteland otherwise. Arizona has much more to offer in terms of resort-style vacations, amenities, and points of interest. I don't see a lot of crossover.

 

[RemoAZ]

No evidence of this being a thing at all. None. How many people are cross shopping Vegas with golfing in Scottsdale? Of those people, how many are going to use the hockey team as a deal breaker? You know there are teams in other warm places like Florida, right?

I agree. Bickley does write some crap and has no business even talking hockey but that quote was laughable at best. Does he think the legions of Canadian and Eastern US people that have winter homes here are going to sell them and move to Vegas too? Give me a break. The only affect a Vegas franchise will have on the Yotes is to give some of our fans an excuse to catch an away game on a mini vacation from time to time.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I agree. Bickley does write some crap and has no business even talking hockey but that quote was laughable at best. Does he think the legions of Canadian and Eastern US people that have winter homes here are going to sell them and move to Vegas too? Give me a break. The only affect a Vegas franchise will have on the Yotes is to give some of our fans an excuse to catch an away game on a mini vacation from time to time.

This, I would plan a Vegas trip around a hockey game for sure. Just another 2 1/2 hours filled up on my Vegas trip is all. That, and I'd rather put money towards booze than at craps or the blackjack table.

 

[0point1]

This, I would plan a Vegas trip around a hockey game for sure. Just another 2 1/2 hours filled up on my Vegas trip is all. That, and I'd rather put money towards booze than at craps or the blackjack table.

Same here, I would definitely take a Vegas road trip to see the Yotes once or twice per season.

 

[hbk]

I'm sitting here debating about where to go for a vacation. I would dearly love to come watch 3-4 games in AZ but my friends are not Coyote fans and have little or no interest. Vegas is always an option which has something for everyone and would solve a lot of the back and forth discussions going on right now.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I'm sitting here debating about where to go for a vacation. I would dearly love to come watch 3-4 games in AZ but my friends are not Coyote fans and have little or no interest. Vegas is always an option which has something for everyone and would solve a lot of the back and forth discussions going on right now.

I'm just curious, what does Vegas offer that Phoenix doesn't? If you plan accordingly, you can do exactly what you would do in Vegas here in Phoenix(outside of the roller coasters at night). Phoenix has a great night life, and has much more to offer outside of that than Vegas does.

 

[hbk]

I'm just curious, what does Vegas offer that Phoenix doesn't? If you plan accordingly, you can do exactly what you would do in Vegas here in Phoenix(outside of the roller coasters at night). Phoenix has a great night life, and has much more to offer outside of that than Vegas does.

your preaching to the converted.

 

[Seedling]

Speaking as a hockey fan from the Great White North, I think both are appealing. Having said that it really depends on what you would want to do in terms of pace and sites close to the main venue.

For example, it is always nice to be close to places like Sedona and the flights to both locations are easily available, so that cancels out the travel consideration. I really don't see it having any impact on folks from here going to AZ as lots have homes there anyway. Vegas, same thing. People go there just as often.

Bottom line, I don't see it making any impact on AZ trips TBH.

 

[Dolemite]

I'm just curious, what does Vegas offer that Phoenix doesn't? If you plan accordingly, you can do exactly what you would do in Vegas here in Phoenix(outside of the roller coasters at night). Phoenix has a great night life, and has much more to offer outside of that than Vegas does.

Why Vegas is better (off the top of my head):

24 hour drinking and the ability to walk around with said drinks up and down the strip
Clubs in Scottsdale are trailer trash compared to Vegas clubs
Better golf courses
Better food options
Better shopping options
Everything in Vegas isn't so spread out like Phoenix is
WAY cheaper hotels in Vegas than Phoenix/Scottsdale
Sky Harbor is nowhere near Westgate or Old Town like McCarran is to the strip
Better amenities.
The arena is right on the strip.

 

[XX]

Why Vegas is better (off the top of my head):

Well that's great, but it doesn't support the line of thought in your article.

This business will all be lost to Las Vegas if an NHL expansion team ever materializes.

First off, it's incredibly dumb to say it will all be lost to Vegas. Clearly not. Just sensationalism on your part. Second, there are teams in warm, retirement-friendly areas with cheap tickets right now. Are you saying that these mystical Canadian snowbirds would suddenly flock to AZ in droves if Tampa and Florida folded up shop? And that they'll all suddenly leave AZ just as quickly when a Las Vegas team rolls around?

I don't buy it. Vegas is not a replacement option for someone that owns a house down here, as an example. The amount of people that would be conflicted is probably a small blip on the revenue radar. The actual amount it costs the Coyotes would be insignificant. You know what is significant? The big fat expansion check the Coyotes could cash. It's potentially enough money to keep them in the valley for the foreseeable future.

That's the only meat to the article. The rest is just needlessly trashing on a writer that has been far more successful than you. I don't like Bickley, but building an entire article around how crappy he is and then offering up a spurious claim like you did is a waste.

 

[Dolemite]

Well that's great, but it doesn't support the line of thought in your article.



First off, it's incredibly dumb to say it will all be lost to Vegas. Clearly not. Just sensationalism on your part. Second, there are teams in warm, retirement-friendly areas with cheap tickets right now. Are you saying that these mystical Canadian snowbirds would suddenly flock to AZ in droves if Tampa and Florida folded up shop? And that they'll all suddenly leave AZ just as quickly when a Las Vegas team rolls around?

I don't buy it. Vegas is not a replacement option for someone that owns a house down here, as an example. The amount of people that would be conflicted is probably a small blip on the revenue radar. The actual amount it costs the Coyotes would be insignificant. You know what is significant? The big fat expansion check the Coyotes could cash. It's potentially enough money to keep them in the valley for the foreseeable future.

That's the only meat to the article. The rest is just needlessly trashing on a writer that has been far more successful than you. I don't like Bickley, but building an entire article around how crappy he is and then offering up a spurious claim like you did is a waste.

You're assuming that it's the only business that the coyotes have. It's just one part of the non residents who buy tickets. I'm talking about the fans of say Vancouver (for this point) who a few years back couldn't get tickets to home games because they were in such high demand the prices were astronomical (including ticket broker offices near the arena). These fans used to come down to see games in droves and made a week/weekend of it. This business will
Be lost to Vegas.

And no I'm not trashing Bickley as a person. I'm trashing his lazy/non-existent research and writing. The man just does not go to games at all.

 

[XX]

This business will be lost to Vegas.

You have no evidence of this, and you haven't put forth anything resembling a convincing argument. We know that this isn't an all or nothing situation because there are already a half dozen warm weather markets competing with Arizona right now. Are all of the snowbirds concentrated in one market? Obviously not. So why would you suggest that Vegas would suddenly hoover up all of the Coyotes' share of this particular market when that hasn't happened already? Because 'the strip'? Please.

Also, let's logic out the mathematical reality of the situation. Which is greater, the revenue lost by a handful of snowbirds switching to Vegas or the expansion money + additional revenue share another team would bring to the league? If these fickle snowbirds are such a core part of the Coyotes revenue model, does the team really deserve to exist in this market?

It's small potatoes, Dolemite. It's crazy to focus in on one dubious argument that you haven't substantiated in any way and then use said argument to go after Bickley.

A better angle would be the Vegas whatevers being put into the same division as the Coyotes, potentially taking away a solid number of dates where higher draws could be booked. That loss would still likely be dwarfed by the increase in revenue share and the fat check. It's just not worth worrying about. It's a major positive if it ever comes to pass, if only for it being one less place the Coyotes can end up.

I'm trashing his lazy/non-existent research and writing.

What did your article bring to the table?

 

[Bondurant]

Why Vegas is better (off the top of my head):

24 hour drinking and the ability to walk around with said drinks up and down the strip
Clubs in Scottsdale are trailer trash compared to Vegas clubs
Better golf courses
Better food options
Better shopping options
Everything in Vegas isn't so spread out like Phoenix is
WAY cheaper hotels in Vegas than Phoenix/Scottsdale
Sky Harbor is nowhere near Westgate or Old Town like McCarran is to the strip
Better amenities.
The arena is right on the strip.

Vegas may be more appealing to you and for tourists in general but you have not shown a link between Phoenix and hockey tourism that exists or that would be lost by Vegas getting a NHL team.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

If Greater Phoenix was going to lose business to Vegas for all the things mentioned above, it would have already happened. An NHL team in Vegas won't significantly affect Phoenix (or the Coyotes) as a destination.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Why Vegas is better (off the top of my head):

24 hour drinking and the ability to walk around with said drinks up and down the strip
Clubs in Scottsdale are trailer trash compared to Vegas clubs
Better golf courses
Better food options
Better shopping options
Everything in Vegas isn't so spread out like Phoenix is
WAY cheaper hotels in Vegas than Phoenix/Scottsdale
Sky Harbor is nowhere near Westgate or Old Town like McCarran is to the strip
Better amenities.
The arena is right on the strip.

Here's the thing - your whole thesis presupposes that visitors get off on the Strip.

Outside of the Strip, there are exactly two things to do in Las Vegas - jack and ****. If you don't go in for the whole genteel-Mafia-style setting of Vegas, what are your options?

If anything, Vegas is going to have a harder time building a permanent home base of fans than even Phoenix has had.

 

[RemoAZ]

A franchise in Vegas simply isn't going to affect attendance here in any measurable way. I'm sure there are plenty a valid ways to rip on Bickley. This isn't one of them.

 

[Replacement*]

Hey Dolemite, its been awhile. 2006?

Another poster here from the Great White North.

Quite a few fans are diehards and plan their holidays around maximizing out of town games. To wit taking in say LA, ANA, PHO, SJ games has been popular. Quite often Oiler roadtrips have even fostered this by having 3 games on the swing (never seem to do 4) So through the years theres been lots of fans following the team from one game to the other and arranging a vacation that way.

So in that way adding Vegas to the equation potentially increases that action by adding one more spot for people escaping winter.

If Vegas was in the mix, and scheduling fully realized around 5 dates the fans would likely flock to that as well. We're diehards, as you know.

The additional thing one needs to consider is that specifically with Edmonton fans are quite into visiting other NHL arenas (being fed up with the Rexall experience) and wanting to see hockey played in Arena's that offer better options. Oiler fans, long looking forward to their own New arena have become NHL rinkrats in this way. Like some people climb 30 peaks Oiler fans are often interested in 30 arenas, lol.

Don't discount that adding a venue just makes this type of hockey vacation more attractive. Oilers fans consider it like a bonus to add another game and city on the package.

ps enjoy Sam Gagner. I'm expecting he'll do well.

 

[rt]

The NHL would fail miserably in Las Vegas.

 

[Kaizen]

You need better bait than that if you want to make the catch.