Tribute Damn, Chris Chelios was so good with the Habs

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

You have to put the players in the same environement:

Mcdavid and Crosby in the 80s for example:

Wood sticks
Food
Not the same off ice training (plyo)... the players at the time barely trained in Summer
Heavier equipment (skates). My skates at 7 years old in 1982 were heavier than my adult skates now...

No video to help to improve your own skills.
Red line
Hooking ...especially in the 90s

Now put 99 and 66 in todays hockey.

Composite stick.
Modern equipment.
Diet food
Off ice training

My ranking for those 4 generational players in any era would be:

Lemieux
Gretzky
Mcdavid
Crosby.


Lemieux came back after 4 years retirement at 35 years old in 2000 with Hasek, Brodeur, Roy etc.. in net and Red line , hooking, dead puck era and the dude did....:

35 goals in 43 games... and 76 points.....

A martian.....

All your comparisons are worth naught, because the single biggest difference is the overall level of talent, and the difference is huge, which gives a lot less space to maneuvre.

It's just impossible to know which would be which as all are products of their own time with very different paradigms.

The only constant here is people always idolizing the past.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Yep... People are so quick to say player are soo much better today. I agree that they are much better at certain things


Although a player like Gretzky would still destroy any era. Sorry but players in this "era" aren't exactly the best passer I've seen during my lifetime. A lot of player are not very accurate on their passing (And I'm not talking about player having a better active stick and intercepting passes) Just overall breakout or accuracy of passes, just take the Habs right now, a lot of player aren't good and accurate on their passing. Same thing goes for receiving a pass.


People on HF tend to underestimate I think 90's hockey. It wasn't as bad as you think, the game was just different.

I mean guys like Gretzky, Oates, Janney would still destroy most of the player in this league for passing.

The training has changed today. Ice time isn’t what it use to be. Players are fitter, have better equipment etc, but every hour spent in the gym is an hour lost on the frozen pond or rink. Things are different today, are the players much better, yeah the 3rd/4th liners are a bit better, but the cream of the crop is still the same as it has always been. Humans don’t evolve that fast. Pretending that there is some huge shift in human evolution over a 20-30 year span is just silly talk. Things are different, not better, not worse, but different. Mario/Wayne were extreme outliers. There’s nothing more to it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I wrote ALL their career. Koivu finished it with Anaheim, and Brisebois, even if he finished in MTL spent some time in Colorado. Plekky has played some games in Toronto.

So, Markov is the ONLY recent one. And even then, he was UFA when he left for KHL whre he played another two seasons.

Subban should've been a lifer. f***ing Therrien...

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I've always rated Mario ahead of Gretzky, but my first memories of this league was just about the time when Mario was unofficially taking the torch for Wayne.

I never witnessed Gretzky's prime when he was an oiler, but what I saw from him in LA was already ridiculous.

You won't hear any arguments from me about Mario though.

I have Wayne comfortably ahead of Mario, although I think Mario was the better goal scorer. The most feared player coming in on that breakaway man, an absolute nightmare, even for Hasek.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The training has changed today. Ice time isn’t what it use to be. Players are fitter, have better equipment etc, but every hour spent in the gym is an hour lost on the frozen pond or rink. Things are different today, are the players much better, yeah the 3rd/4th liners are a bit better, but the cream of the crop is still the same as it has always been. Humans don’t evolve that fast. Pretending that there is some huge shift in human evolution over a 20-30 year span is just silly talk. Things are different, not better, not worse, but different. Mario/Wayne were extreme outliers. There’s nothing more to it.

It's not about a shift in evolution, but slow increments in brain adaptations with very different environments to adapt. But the single biggest change is the talent pool.

When the difference in points between your average player and the best player in the league is much lower than it used to be, that's either a sign of rule changes, or most likely, the level of talent league wide has risen, levelling the playing field.

 

[LaP]

I was looking at old videos, and this highlight reel from a Habs / Nordiques game in 1988-89 makes me sad and nostalgic:

Robinson and Roy at 6:50 what a bunch of loosers. It's even worse than the triple low five between Subban and Price. Roy and Robinson were lucky to not be part of MB and MT team cause they would have been brought back in line quickly. What a lack of rispek. No lidership. No Karaktr.

 

[JianYang]

I wrote ALL their career. Koivu finished it with Anaheim, and Brisebois, even if he finished in MTL spent some time in Colorado. Plekky has played some games in Toronto.

So, Markov is the ONLY recent one. And even then, he was UFA when he left for KHL whre he played another two seasons.

Having markov alone probably puts the habs above the average in having guys play their entire careers on one NHL team.

Its a very rare event.

 

[crosbyshow]

All your comparisons are worth naught, because the single biggest difference is the overall level of talent, and the difference is huge, which gives a lot less space to maneuvre.

It's just impossible to know which would be which as all are products of their own time with very different paradigms.

The only constant here is people always idolizing the past.

You know what..you are right and it's the reason why I put 66 and 99 in front because they got a better IQ.....especially Wayne who was a computer. 99 was a lot smarter than 97 for example..a lot...

It is not a knock on 87 and 97 at all.

Mcdavid is my favorite player today and Crosby was the one for 15 years for me...but I have seen those 4 players at their prime and 66.....was something else.

Think about that..Lemieux did 35 goals in 43 games....at 35......and after 4 years retirement in the dead puck era.

97 is not even able to do it at his prime at 24 years old...

 

[LaP]

I think the early to mid 90s was the golden era.

The players are bigger, stronger and faster today but that is a natural evolution for all athletes over time, and it doesn't necessarily make the game more entertaining.

The earlier hockey brought out stronger emotions, and there were more clearly defined villains.

The goalies were not as refined as they are now, but it also made it more fun because there were so many different styles unlike today. You had your stand up guys like mclean, scramblers like hasek, hybrids like brodeur, and butterfly specialists like Roy.

Goaltending is down to a science now, and it's looks pretty generic these days. It takes away from some of those eye popping saves you see back then. Goalies also didn't look like they were playing lacrosse back then. Take a look at how small patrick roy looked on 1986 compared to 2003.

But the evolution of goaltending reflects what has happened to the game in general. The coaching has refined, and the players have refined to the point where the game has become more robotic.

It's more about all players playing within a system now, whereas the early to mid 90s was more chaotic, and aggressive. Coaches hadn't quite got to the point of breaking down video yet except for a few exceptions, and there was generally less x and o type coaching, and more emotional button pushing.

I think the player is better today, but I can't say the same about the entertainment value of the product.

Hockey is still super fun when it's played by good teams. We are not one of the good teams. I'm sad to say our team is very boring to watch unless they give their 120% something nobody can do for 82 games.

 

[crosbyshow]

I have Wayne comfortably ahead of Mario, although I think Mario was the better goal scorer. The most feared player coming in on that breakaway man, an absolute nightmare, even for Hasek.

Yep.

Lemieux missed the equivalent of 5 1/2 seasons between 24 and 35 years old and the dude scored 700 goals....

The best scorer ever.

66 without back surgeries and cancer..it's 1000 goals

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You know what..you are right and it's the reason why I put 66 and 99 in front because they got a better IQ.....especially Wayne who was a computer. 99 was a lot smarter than 97 for example..a lot...

It is not a knock on 87 and 97 at all.

Mcdavid is my favorite player today and Crosby was the one for 15 years for me...but I have seen those 4 players at their prime and 66.....was something else.

Think about that..Lemieux did 35 goals in 43 games....at 35......and after 4 years retirement in the dead puck era.

97 is not even able to do it at his prime at 24 years old...

Lemieux just couldn't stay healthy. That was really the only knock on him. What an unbelievable player. I think he's the best ever.

 

[LaP]

Yep... People are so quick to say player are soo much better today. I agree that they are much better at certain things


Although a player like Gretzky would still destroy any era. Sorry but players in this "era" aren't exactly the best passer I've seen during my lifetime. A lot of player are not very accurate on their passing (And I'm not talking about player having a better active stick and intercepting passes) Just overall breakout or accuracy of passes, just take the Habs right now, a lot of player aren't good and accurate on their passing. Same thing goes for receiving a pass.


People on HF tend to underestimate I think 90's hockey. It wasn't as bad as you think, the game was just different.

I mean guys like Gretzky, Oates, Janney would still destroy most of the player in this league for passing.

Passing right now is inferior to the russian five by a significant margin. The defensives in the north devision would be destroyed by the russian 5.

Watching Josh Gorges plays hockey was painful. The guy could not complete even a midget quality pass.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

You know what..you are right and it's the reason why I put 66 and 99 in front because they got a better IQ.....especially Wayne who was a computer. 99 was a lot smarter than 97 for example..a lot...

That's just ridiculous. You're basing this, your vision of them, when the play was much slower, more space on the ice, average player weight and height were lower, less sophisticated coaching systems, ect. You can't take their reaction level to that slower play and think you actually know if they'd do better than McDavid today. And vice versa.

Your view of them is skewed. Have you even watched hockey in the 80's? It was slow as snails compared to today.

 

[crosbyshow]

That's just ridiculous. You're basing this, your vision of them, when the play was much slower, more space on the ice, average player weight and height were lower, less sophisticated coaching systems, ect. You can't take their reaction level to that slower play and think you actually know if they'd do better than McDavid today. And vice versa.

Your view of them is skewed. Have you even watched hockey in the 80's? It was slow as snails compared to today.

Do you know how to read..I have seen those players at their prime...I am not 25 years old.

A way past his prime Lemieux did some stuff in 2000 that Mc never did at his prime.....:2000 ..not 80s.

He proved that he was dominant in any era.

Put Lemieux at his prime now and he would laugh at Crosby....big time....

99 and 66 were just too smart.on the ice ..for any era..

 

[BehindTheTimes]

It's not about a shift in evolution, but slow increments in brain adaptations with very different environments to adapt. But the single biggest change is the talent pool.

When the difference in points between your average player and the best player in the league is much lower than it used to be, that's either a sign of rule changes, or most likely, the level of talent league wide has risen, levelling the playing field.

Or there is no Mario or Wayne. No one else was blowing out the competition like these two. Population pools matter little in this context. Only a handful are their direct competition. It’s no different than Usain Bolt, there are more 100m sprinters today than in the past, better trained athletes with better nutrition, equipment etc, but this freak of a man destroyed them all with relative ease. Wayne and Mario are the NHL’s Usain Bolt. Would they be winning scoring races by 70-80-90 points, of course not, but they would be winning them, all of them.

 

[crosbyshow]

Or there is no Mario or Wayne. No one else was blowing out the competition like these two. Population pools matter little in this context. Only a handful are their direct competition. It’s no different than Usain Bolt, there are more 100m sprinters today than in the past, better trained athletes with better nutrition, equipment etc, but this freak of a man destroyed them all with relative ease. Wayne and Mario are the NHL’s Usain Bolt. Would they be winning scoring races by 70-80-90 points, of course not, but they would be winning them, all of them.

Absolutely...

Always funny when I see kids saying that 66 and 99 would do only 100 points today....loll

Kucherov did 127 points 2 years. Ago......Kucherov...lol..in the same sentance of 99 and 66..come on.

Its gonna happen to them as well..30 years from now..they will talk about Mcdavid and Crosby to the next generation and they will laugh at them.

I did the same with my father about Orr, Howe..

 

[salbutera]

Subban should've been a lifer. f***ing Therrien...

Get to over it Doug Harvey wasn’t a lifer, or Lafleur, Big Bird etc

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Get to over it Doug Harvey wasn’t a lifer, or Lafleur, Big Bird etc

I get that. And each case is different. But those players at least spent their primes with us. Subban is the most recent example. Chelios would be another.

As hard done by as Subban was, Harvey was really shafted. Props to him for standing up for the players.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Or there is no Mario or Wayne. No one else was blowing out the competition like these two. Population pools matter little in this context. Only a handful are their direct competition. It’s no different than Usain Bolt, there are more 100m sprinters today than in the past, better trained athletes with better nutrition, equipment etc, but this freak of a man destroyed them all with relative ease. Wayne and Mario are the NHL’s Usain Bolt. Would they be winning scoring races by 70-80-90 points, of course not, but they would be winning them, all of them.

You're conflating the issues and wrongfully reducing what has had the biggest impact on output. A bigger talent pool means your league is less diluted, less space and much more of a level playing field. The overall impact is tremendous and overshadows pretty much everything else.

With more time and space and a bigger margin between your average and best players, it makes it easy to look better than your competition compared to today.

This whole debate hinges more on skewed perceptions and beliefs than it does on what that reality would actually be.

Here's a thought exercise: say you have two young shooters of equal strenght, you stick one in a shooting range with targets moving at 1 foot per second and you stick the other guy in another shooting range with moving targets at 5 foot per second. You let them practice for years and then you let them compete on both ranges. Odds are the latter shooter will have the upperhand in both.

 

[salbutera]

Or there is no Mario or Wayne. No one else was blowing out the competition like these two. Population pools matter little in this context. Only a handful are their direct competition. It’s no different than Usain Bolt, there are more 100m sprinters today than in the past, better trained athletes with better nutrition, equipment etc, but this freak of a man destroyed them all with relative ease. Wayne and Mario are the NHL’s Usain Bolt. Would they be winning scoring races by 70-80-90 points, of course not, but they would be winning them, all of them.

We used to have a rule, Gretzky and later Mario were not allowed in hockey pools.

 

[LaP]

We used to have a rule, Gretzky and later Mario were not allowed in hockey pools.

We allowed them. But you could only take them in the first round and they were the only two players available in the first round.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We used to have a rule, Gretzky and later Mario were not allowed in hockey pools.

I remember drafting Alexei Morozov because I was hoping he'd be Mario's linemate. That was always a fun game. Can't get Mario? No problem, but you'd better draft Rob Brown.

 

[salbutera]

I remember drafting Alexei Morozov because I was hoping he'd be Mario's linemate. That was always a fun game. Can't get Mario? No problem, but you'd better draft Rob Brown.

I drafted Terry Ruskowski one year and what a heist that was!

Early 90s were the best, Ruskowski and then I had Mogilny & La La Lafontaine what a season!

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Do you know how to read..I have seen those players at their prime...I am not 25 years old.

A way past his prime Lemieux did some stuff in 2000 that Mc never did at his prime.....:2000 ..not 80s.

He proved that he was dominant in any era.

Put Lemieux at his prime now and he would laugh at Crosby....big time....

99 and 66 were just too smart.on the ice ..for any era..

What Lemieux did at the turn of the millenium isn't equal to the play of today. 80's and 90's saw huge expansions, which stopped just when Lemieux left. The next 20 years saw almost no expansions at a time when the worldwide hockey pool exploded. Those are actually the years, the last 2 decades, when talent has risen much higher, where the playing field has been much closer than it has ever been. A game in 2001 is far from the same as a game in 2021, just like 1981 is a world of difference with 2001.

As someone who has spent a considerable time reading up on the dynamics of complex systems, to think you even know the answer to those questions make me think you do not appreciate the complexity in differences in dynamics between eras.

It's just pure idolization of the past without regards to a true comparative model, other than stats, which are useless with such different contexts.

 

[Paddy17]

Chelios was one of the few who was a true complete D. Offense, defense, and toughness. He was a tough SOB.