Dahlin vs Heiskanen

[Chainshot]

Love Heiskanen - he's a dynamite all-situations minute eater who still manages to generate scoring while mitigating goals against. I'm hoping Dahlin gets to Miro's d-zone prowess as he develops.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Love Heiskanen - he's a dynamite all-situations minute eater who still manages to generate scoring while mitigating goals against. I'm hoping Dahlin gets to Miro's d-zone prowess as he develops.

Oh he will, Dahlin's biggest issues last year were due to physical limitations. Not having the man strength to remove a player from the puck along the boards. He'd also lose stamina quickly, and get a bit careless due to fatigue. We saw him slow down last year as the season wore on. He had the body of a teenage kid. It's insane that he played top-4 minutes, and performed the way he did.

That is where that extra year of development for Heiskanen really shows. That extra year of training cannot be overlooked.

If Dahlin doesn't develop as a lockdown defenseman who can play all situations then I'd be extremely disappointed; it'd be surprising in the saddest way. He's just too damn smart and skilled not to.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Are there any actual stats to back up the claim that Heiskanen is superior defensively? I'm not saying he isn't as I barely watch Dallas, but what is this based on? Ice time or zone starts doesn't cut it, that's about deployment and not performance.

dahlin gets less 5 on 5 time than colin miller. There's a reason why he's "deployed" like that.

 

[dortt]

These Dahlin vs Miro debates remind me of the Myers vs Doughty ones 10 years ago

 

[ImNeverWrong]

These Dahlin vs Miro debates remind me of the Myers vs Doughty ones 10 years ago

interesting, considering what team myers was drafted by. coincidence?

 

[dasaybz]

dahlin gets less 5 on 5 time than colin miller. There's a reason why he's "deployed" like that.

Because he's struggled a little bit defensively this year, and they are doing the proper coaching thing and letting him earn his minutes. Not because he's zomg awful defensively.

 

[Hammettf2b]

It's clearly Heiskanen for me. I mean look at Dahlin, hes hideous. Especially for a super Swede.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Because he's struggled a little bit defensively this year, and they are doing the proper coaching thing and letting him earn his minutes. Not because he's zomg awful defensively.

Ohhh so you acknowledge that Heiskanen's superior minutes are due to him NOT struggling defensively like Dahlin and being defensively sound is first and foremost the most important part about being a good dman?

 

[dasaybz]

Ohhh so you acknowledge that Heiskanen's superior minutes are due to him NOT struggling defensively like Dahlin and being defensively sound is first and foremost the most important part about being a good dman?

No. His superior minutes come from the Sabres not needing Dahlin to play those minutes because our defense is much better and he doesn't need to be relied on as much.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

No. His superior minutes come from the Sabres not needing Dahlin to play those minutes because our defense is much better and he doesn't need to be relied on as much.

LOL at calling a defense with Rasmus Ristolainen leading the team in minutes, "superior." Dallas made the playoffs last year, BUDDY. Where did the sabres finish? If you think these handful of games to the start of the season is indicative of what's going to happen throughout the remainder of the season, i'd like you to look into the sabres start last year as reference.

 

[EP40 AKA Lil Wayne]

Meh.. Makar is where its at.

 

[AveryStar4Eva]

It's clearly Heiskanen for me. I mean look at Dahlin, hes hideous. Especially for a super Swede.

I don’t think either win in this department

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Dahlin owns the ice and drives offense. Enough said.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Heiskanen isn't even a clear winner vs Makar, he surely is not better then Dahlin who is a generational McDavid esque talent. There is a reason why Dahlin is one of THREE 18 year old dmen in the 100+ year history of the NHL to score 40+ points. Heiskanen didn't even make the NHL at 18, should we compare Dahlin this year vs Heiskanen last year? Thats how Leafs fans do it when its Eichel Vs Matthews, 16-17 doesn't "count" for Eichel since it was his 2nd year and Matthews first year when doing ppg from 16-19.

 

[Healthy DiPietro]

Ohhh so you acknowledge that Heiskanen's superior minutes are due to him NOT struggling defensively like Dahlin and being defensively sound is first and foremost the most important part about being a good dman?

The sum total of your offense and defense - i.e whether or not you tip the scales for your team when you're on the ice - is what's important for any defenseman or forward. Otherwise you could probably question Bergeron's salary. How you distribute the contribution doesn't matter and "durr he's a DEFENSEman" is just a cheap semantic argument. "Dude he's a BACK", yeah so?

 

[Phil McKraken]

dahlin gets less 5 on 5 time than colin miller. There's a reason why he's "deployed" like that.

That's why I'm asking for stats though; to see the reason. Is it because he's not capable of playing more or is it because it's better for his development to be deployed like this? Most Sabres fans would probably agree Myers and Ristolainen are lesser players today because of how much responsibility they were forced to take from the get-go.

 

[rhodes77]

First off I will clearly state that it is EARLY in the season but some of these replies are absolutely insane to me and just wanted to layout what appears to be an actual logical look at this year so far re: Dahlin.
1. Again, it's early, but so far it looks like one of the areas that Krueger has really excelled at so far is situational player usage. He appears to really try and put lines and pairs in game situation he feels they are most likely to perform the best. In the case of Dahlin that is primarily offensive deployment. And so far it's hard to fault that usage. To start the season his expected goals for per 60 vs. his expected goals against is just insane:
oiGF/60: 5.9
oiGA/60: 1.1
He is being used so far where he can best contribute to the success of the team - and that's in providing offense. To say that his usage on the PP is not valid or bloats his stats is simply wrong. Did you stop to think that he is arguably the biggest reason the Sabres PP has been so successful so far? The PP runs through him - not through Jack Eichel. Krueger has shown plenty of faith in running Risto and McCabe out there to deal with the primary defense responsibility. He is, so far, putting players in a position to succeed at their strengths to the benefit of the team performance.
2. Is it such a good thing that Heiskenen has to be used in a much larger even strength and PK role at his age? Again - EARLY, I know - but his expected goals for and against are a net zero and he is running a negative corsi for the start of the year. I am in no way saying that I think this is a reflection of his talent because he looks like a damn impressive player. What I am saying is perhaps in reality he is misused in such a role right now and his ice time over Dahlin's might not be so much of a thing to gloat about. It might be a case of bad coaching and player situational misuse.

In short I think it's very flawed to try and point to Dahlin's lesser minutes and high PP usage as a flaw in any way. It appears to be smart coaching.

 

[Nerv]

First off I will clearly state that it is EARLY in the season but some of these replies are absolutely insane to me and just wanted to layout what appears to be an actual logical look at this year so far re: Dahlin.
1. Again, it's early, but so far it looks like one of the areas that Krueger has really excelled at so far is situational player usage. He appears to really try and put lines and pairs in game situation he feels they are most likely to perform the best. In the case of Dahlin that is primarily offensive deployment. And so far it's hard to fault that usage. To start the season his expected goals for per 60 vs. his expected goals against is just insane:
oiGF/60: 5.9
oiGA/60: 1.1
He is being used so far where he can best contribute to the success of the team - and that's in providing offense. To say that his usage on the PP is not valid or bloats his stats is simply wrong. Did you stop to think that he is arguably the biggest reason the Sabres PP has been so successful so far? The PP runs through him - not through Jack Eichel. Krueger has shown plenty of faith in running Risto and McCabe out there to deal with the primary defense responsibility. He is, so far, putting players in a position to succeed at their strengths to the benefit of the team performance.
2. Is it such a good thing that Heiskenen has to be used in a much larger even strength and PK role at his age? Again - EARLY, I know - but his expected goals for and against are a net zero and he is running a negative corsi for the start of the year. I am in no way saying that I think this is a reflection of his talent because he looks like a damn impressive player. What I am saying is perhaps in reality he is misused in such a role right now and his ice time over Dahlin's might not be so much of a thing to gloat about. It might be a case of bad coaching and player situational misuse.

In short I think it's very flawed to try and point to Dahlin's lesser minutes and high PP usage as a flaw in any way. It appears to be smart coaching.

he also played his first full NHL season with roman polak in 2019. not entirely relevant to the thread but yeah his role is pretty brutal for a kid lol.

 

[sabrebuild]

Heiskanen actually has more points and more than twice as many goals on even strength than Dahlin so far, the offensive difference in Dahlin's favor is exclusively due to his PP abilities. Defensemen also have defensive responsibilities, however, and that's where Dahlin hasn't really proven anything yet while Heiskanen plays 20+ minutes a night without sheltering. Maybe Dahlin will too eventually, but labeling him "a goat" at this point is laughable.

Well I always think its more impressive to realize greatness before its irrefutable.

I think we both know that if the Sabres offered Dahlin for Heiskanen the Stars are listening. Botterill maybe be a little slow, but he doesn't even take the call if Dallas makes the offer.

 

[sabremike]

LOL at calling a defense with Rasmus Ristolainen leading the team in minutes, "superior." Dallas made the playoffs last year, BUDDY. Where did the sabres finish? If you think these handful of games to the start of the season is indicative of what's going to happen throughout the remainder of the season, i'd like you to look into the sabres start last year as reference.

It's almost as if we added a couple of much better defenseman to our roster in the offseason and that Scandella fell off a cliff last season because of medical issues that are now no longer effecting him and now he's good again or something.

 

[Panthaz89]

My brain hurts from reading how Dahlin is unproven defensively when has broken up several rushes this season including a couple of 1v3s sure one was against the Devils but last time I checked they are still an NHL team. The best part about him is that he can get the puck out of the D-zone fast and keep the puck in the O-zone with ease which means the opponent doesn't have the puck typically because of him. He's pretty damn good on D the major gaffs are because he plays a risky game but way more often that not they pay off easy or he makes up for them immediately. Whoever partners with Dahlin is going to have some great stats/advanced stats because the Sabres do considerably better when he's on the ice. I'm sure Bogosian benefited a ton from being his partner most of last season.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Well I always think its more impressive to realize greatness before its irrefutable.

I think we both know that if the Sabres offered Dahlin for Heiskanen the Stars are listening. Botterill maybe be a little slow, but he doesn't even take the call if Dallas makes the offer.

Well I wouldn't think so, knowing he'd then have to deal with hundreds of screaming Sabres fans irate at the loss of their savior.

 

[Doohickie]

There is some notion that heisk is a lot better than dahlin defensively by the star fans, I must admit I do not watch every star game, but I don't see it the way it make it out to be. Opinions?

Dahlin plays like a fourth forward. He lines up at defense, but he isn't by any means a defensive defenseman. To make him excel you need pair him with a stay-at-home defenseman. Sure he has some physicality, but most of the "good defensive plays" he makes are really puckhandling in a phone booth kinds of plays that allow him to clear the zone. Last year, Dahlin was very prone to make the rookie mistake, like the time he tried to glove a puck down but it was higher than he thought. It went over his head and an opposing player skated right around him to score. When he gaffs, he gaffs big.

That said, he's going to be a big star. I think Heiskanen will be too, but with more defense and less offense.

(Disclaimer: Sabres fan born and raised in Buffalo, living in the Dallas market now.)

 

[Team Cozens]

Heiskanen isn't even a clear winner vs Makar, he surely is not better then Dahlin who is a generational McDavid esque talent. There is a reason why Dahlin is one of THREE 18 year old dmen in the 100+ year history of the NHL to score 40+ points. Heiskanen didn't even make the NHL at 18, should we compare Dahlin this year vs Heiskanen last year? Thats how Leafs fans do it when its Eichel Vs Matthews, 16-17 doesn't "count" for Eichel since it was his 2nd year and Matthews first year when doing ppg from 16-19.

I see Heiskanen being comparable to Jokiharju.

 

[Doohickie]

My brain hurts from reading how Dahlin is unproven defensively when has broken up several rushes this season including a couple of 1v3s

He seems to be playing more within himself this year, but last year he overplayed his talent (i.e., attempted plays he thought he could play and missed) which led to several goals against.