D Ville Heinola - Manitoba Moose, AHL (2019, 20th, WPG)

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Have to say the Jets lucked out big time, cause that Trouba trade really bit hard, but they where able to grab Heinola with that pick and I think even if he would never grow up anywhere close to Trouba's frame, he has a very solid chance of becoming the better player in the long run. That vision & IQ is just so transparent with everything he's doing out there, both defensively and offensively. Been nothing sort of terrific and even has the chance to battle for the Calder if all goes well.

Funny how the scouts keep overlooking how hard it is to score in the FEL. Heinola broke Heiskanen's record for the most points at the same age and still didn't really get much of recognition. Easily a top ten pick looking back now, but of course anything can change within the next years - for the good and "bad".

Trouba's a top 40 or so defensemen in the NHL. And that's if he never gets better at age 25.

If Heinola's going to be better, are you projecting him to be a #1 defensemen? If so, why wasn't he a top 10 pick in a draft that was so weak on defensemen?

 

[ijuka]

If so, why wasn't he a top 10 pick in a draft that was so weak on defensemen?

Because he was scouted poorly.

 

[kelsier]

Trouba's a top 40 or so defensemen in the NHL. And that's if he never gets better at age 25.

If Heinola's going to be better, are you projecting him to be a #1 defensemen? If so, why wasn't he a top 10 pick in a draft that was so weak on defensemen?

Yeah Trouba is a top 40 defenceman and he's been around for a long time. I've actually seen all of his games from the past 3 years now (minus a handful or so) since I watch the Jets and now Rangers too. I've regarded him as a great shutdown man for ages now and I don't think he got the proper opportunities in the Jets to fully display his offensive abilities since he didn't get to play PP1, but he's pretty average offensively for a top pairing D in my opinion.

Now to answer your question, ijuka basically hit the nail in the coffin without really going deeper to it. I've said it in the Jets boards already but I can't remember seeing a D man in the team who's outlet pass is so good that he's sending someone on the breakaway nearly every game. Heinola would have made the team off the camp judging by his performance alone (unless they were so stacked they didn't have the choice) so this isn't just a lucky coincidence or a result of Jets' "bad luck" with holding up to their D core.

Now I don't know if he's going to be #1 in the long run, but I say this. If he still got room to grow physically (especially height) and ends up something like 6"1 or at least 6"0 while gaining weight closer to 200 lb, I'd probably give him 50/50 chance of becoming a good #1D. He's definitely looking like a future top pairing D man as of this moment. The kid plays his head up high and sees the ice like the best of them. There's no 18 year old defender of his size that would ever play in the NHL at this age without an excellent hockey IQ. His positioning alone compensates the lack of physicality and enables him to play D at this level. He reminds me of Heiskanen without the elite skating.

Just goes to show how prospects coming out of the FEL are still being undervalued.

 

[karhukissa]

Because he was scouted poorly.

Still quite hard to understand why Liiga is so poorly scouted. Sebastian Aho is a prime example, and now Heinola aswell. I mean it seems to me that highly rated prospects from Liiga and SHL are generally speaking more NHL ready, than players from NA junior leagues. Which have been the most impressive players thus far from last NHL draft? Heinola and Bjornfot. You can even go back to 2017 draft, and you notice that outside Hischier, Pettersson and Heiskanen have been far superior to others.

There are like x10 less top prospects from Liiga&SHL but out of those top guys if you check the amount of players which are making immediate impact on league, its pretty even or even slight edge to Europe. So that says it all. Of course during time it evens out, when these Hughes brothers and company gets used to playing with MEN.

 

[ijuka]

Still quite hard to understand why Liiga is so poorly scouted. Sebastian Aho is a prime example, and now Heinola aswell. I mean it seems to me that highly rated prospects from Liiga and SHL are generally speaking more NHL ready, than players from NA junior leagues. Which have been the most impressive players thus far from last NHL draft? Heinola and Bjornfot. You can even go back to 2017 draft, and you notice that outside Hischier, Pettersson and Heiskanen have been far superior to others.

Yep. Here's major draft disappointments(not necessarily busts) from 2012-2014(top 20 only) and where they were drafted from:
Yakupov, CHL
Reinhart, CHL
Pouliot, CHL
Koekkoek, CHL
Grigorenko, CHL
Nichushkin, KHL
Morin, CHL
Lazar, CHL
Müller, CHL
Rychel, CHL
Dal Colle, CHL
Fleury, CHL
Virtanen, CHL
Honka, CHL
Milano, USHL

It's kind of funny.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Scouting, generally sucks. In the NHL. It has always sucked, relatively speaking at least.
- who right minded scout would not see Alex DeBrincat as a 1st rounder for example

 

[Daximus]

Scouting, generally sucks. In the NHL. It has always sucked, relatively speaking at least.
- who right minded scout would not see Alex DeBrincat as a 1st rounder for example

Size bias is still a very real thing.

 

[Hustlr]

Yep. Here's major draft disappointments(not necessarily busts) from 2012-2014(top 20 only) and where they were drafted from:
Yakupov, CHL
Reinhart, CHL
Pouliot, CHL
Koekkoek, CHL
Grigorenko, CHL
Nichushkin, KHL
Morin, CHL
Lazar, CHL
Müller, CHL
Rychel, CHL
Dal Colle, CHL
Fleury, CHL
Virtanen, CHL
Honka, CHL
Milano, USHL

It's kind of funny.

2012 Finns:

Teravainen
Korpisalo
Lindell
Pokka

2013 Finns:

Barkov
Ristolainen
Saros
Lehkonen

2014 Finns:

Kapanen
Husso

Who the F did you want them to pick? And how much higher? lol

 

[ijuka]

2012 Finns:

Teravainen
Korpisalo
Lindell
Pokka

2013 Finns:

Barkov
Ristolainen
Saros
Lehkonen

2014 Finns:

Kapanen
Husso

Who the F did you want them to pick? And how much higher? lol

Good job missing the whole point.

It was about teams favoring CHL prospects over European ones. The more recent drafts would be more relevant material, of course, but it's too early to judge those.

 

[Daximus]

Yep. Here's major draft disappointments(not necessarily busts) from 2012-2014(top 20 only) and where they were drafted from:
Yakupov, CHL
Reinhart, CHL
Pouliot, CHL
Koekkoek, CHL
Grigorenko, CHL
Nichushkin, KHL
Morin, CHL
Lazar, CHL
Müller, CHL
Rychel, CHL
Dal Colle, CHL
Fleury, CHL
Virtanen, CHL
Honka, CHL
Milano, USHL

It's kind of funny.

You forgot

Puljujarvi (Liiga)
Ristolainen (Liiga) - Not a bust but still a major disappointment.
Gurianov (KHL)
Wennberg (SHL)
Fiala (SHL)
Eriksson-Ek (SHL)

 

[Mr. Met]

You forgot

Puljujarvi (Liiga)
Ristolainen (Liiga) - Not a bust but still a major disappointment.
Gurianov (KHL)
Wennberg (SHL)
Fiala (SHL)
Eriksson-Ek (SHL)

What world do you live in

 

[Daximus]

What world do you live in

The world where Risto is a defensive black hole and nobody else wants him on their team.

 

[Hustlr]

The world where Risto is a defensive black hole and nobody else wants him on their team.

The proper world

 

[ijuka]

You forgot

Puljujarvi (Liiga)
Ristolainen (Liiga) - Not a bust but still a major disappointment.
Gurianov (KHL)
Wennberg (SHL)
Fiala (SHL)
Eriksson-Ek (SHL)

Calling Ristolainen a major disappointment is certainly not valid by my standards, you realize how many others you could add in that case?

Why are you including 2015 or 2016 players when I said it's 2012-2014?

Fiala or Wennberg aren't major disappointments in my book. A 0.5+ PPG player is fine. I didn't even include Drouin, who's a bigger disappointment than both in terms of draft rank.

 

[Daximus]

Calling Ristolainen a major disappointment is certainly not valid by my standards, you realize how many others you could add in that case?

Why are you including 2015 or 2016 players when I said it's 2012-2014?

Fiala or Wennberg aren't major disappointments in my book. A 0.5+ PPG player is fine. I didn't even include Drouin, who's a bigger disappointment than both in terms of draft rank.

Wennberg was a 0.5ppg player. Now his production is right in the same area as Virtanen. Fiala's production will likely drop now that he doesn't have the linemates to carry him like he had in Nashville. I added Puljujarvi because it's convenient to go from 2012-2014 so you avoid having to list him. There will obviously be a lot more busts in the top 20 of any draft from the CHL considering they have a mountain load more players to pick from than pretty much everywhere else in the world combined.

If you go back farther you can add...

Armia (Liiga) - though might be turning that around
Paajarvi - SHL
Rundblad - SHL
Josefson - SHL
Filatov - KHL
Tlusty - Czech
Helenius - Liiga

The point is if any other league had the same number of players drafted out of the CHL, that the CHL does, their bust rate would be no different. Being a European player playing in Europe doesn't make it any more likely you won't bust and frankly it's silly you think it does. But you will always think you and your country are superior to everyone else now that you are finally starting to produce some elite talent again. This thread is about Heinola not about how shitty you think the CHL is.

 

[Raistlin]

Yep. Here's major draft disappointments(not necessarily busts) from 2012-2014(top 20 only) and where they were drafted from:
Yakupov, CHL
Reinhart, CHL
Pouliot, CHL
Koekkoek, CHL
Grigorenko, CHL
Nichushkin, KHL
Morin, CHL
Lazar, CHL
Müller, CHL
Rychel, CHL
Dal Colle, CHL
Fleury, CHL
Virtanen, CHL
Honka, CHL
Milano, USHL

It's kind of funny.

these cherry picked lists are just disingenuous... it serves no statistical purpose. Why 12-14? How convenient to leave out Puljujarvi and Juolevi.

 

[ijuka]

these cherry picked lists are just disingenuous... it serves no statistical purpose. Why 12-14? How convenient to leave out Puljujarvi and Juolevi.

Why is leaving Juolevi out convenient, considering he was drafted from CHL?

And of course, it's because I think it's fair to give players 5 years.

 

[FinPanda]

2012 Finns:

Teravainen
Korpisalo
Lindell
Pokka

2013 Finns:

Barkov
Ristolainen
Saros
Lehkonen

2014 Finns:

Kapanen
Husso

Who the F did you want them to pick? And how much higher? lol

I probably misunderstood the whole post, but Pokka is not like the others lol.

 

[Hustlr]

It was said Finland is underscouted... who did you homers want the NHL scouts to pick????

 

[Barkkonen]

It was said Finland is underscouted... who did you homers want the NHL scouts to pick????

Why don't you just directly quote that one poster who said that in this thread and ask him?

 

[ijuka]

It was said Finland is underscouted... who did you homers want the NHL scouts to pick????

In case you're serious, Finland's not had a good junior production system for very long so back then, there weren't very many Finns worth picking.

 

[Daximus]

In case you're serious, Finland's not had a good junior production system for very long so back then, there weren't very many Finns worth picking.

so in other words "we think we're awesome now, so look at us"

Please buddy, Canada has been producing elite hockey players since the dawn of the game and will continue to do so. What the Finns are currently doing is a blip on the radar. When your golden age comes to pass we will still be in ours because it never ends. Quote me in 2090. It still won't be over.

 

[FinPanda]

so in other words "we think we're awesome now, so look at us"

Please buddy, Canada has been producing elite hockey players since the dawn of the game and will continue to do so. What the Finns are currently doing is a blip on the radar. When your golden age comes to pass we will still be in ours because it never ends. Quote me in 2090. It still won't be over.

Where did he say we were going to be better than Canada? We are just a lot better than we used to be, it's fun for us and it's just a comparison from our past, not other countries. We just can't enjoy that?

 

[winnipegsfinest]

So cool to see he is already a better player than anyone in his draft class. Should’ve went top 5.

 

[Daximus]

Where did he say we were going to be better than Canada? We are just a lot better than we used to be, it's fun for us and it's just a comparison from our past, not other countries. We just can't enjoy that?

You can 100% enjoy that but when posters like Ijuka, who has a history of CHL hatred, have to chime in you can bet your ass I'll be there to throw it right back at him. Learn to enjoy things without putting down other countries.