Current players that are worthy of being in the HHOF

[eliostar]

Don't understand how people could possibly put Toews/Kane before Malkin, or at the same level. He's got pretty much everything they've got, plus a Ted Lindsay, two Art Rosses, a Hart and a Calder. His average point production in regular season and playoffs are second only to Crosby.

Relax , calm down , all three will make it.

 

[Moops]

Because the HHOF is the easiest Hall to get into. Ridiculously easy in fact.

Also, a huge LOL to people trying to compare Kronwall to Chara. Embarrassing.

Pro Football and Naismith HOF both induct more members than hockey. Getting into the Hall is also much, much tougher than getting your name on the Cup. You basically have to be in the top 1-2% of all NHL players in your generation to get in. And you think it's ridiculously easy to get in?

Have a little respect for the players that have gotten to the top of the game.

 

[glovesave_35]

Toews and Kane on the guaranteed list? Erik Karlsson as well?

These guys are really good players but it takes an incredibly special player to be talked about as having punched his ticket to the HOF with under 600 games played, and in Karlsson's case just under 400.

Not taking anything away from these guys. Karlsson is such a special scoring defenseman that if he only keeps up this level of play for 2-3 more years and tacks on some good years after that he will likely be an easy choice. Kane and Toews are both going to have to get into the 1,000 point club in all likelihood. In a few years they could be locks, but definitely not yet.

 

[Voight]

Pro Football and Naismith HOF both induct more members than hockey. Getting into the Hall is also much, much tougher than getting your name on the Cup. You basically have to be in the top 1-2% of all NHL players in your generation to get in. And you think it's ridiculously easy to get in?

Have a little respect for the players that have gotten to the top of the game.

Agreed, Cooperstown is the hardest (because of the stupid voting/ballot rules) followed closely by the HHOF.

 

[Randomtask68]

"one of the top defensive forwards in the league" is really underselling it. The guy is one of the greatest defensive forwards of all time. When you factor in playoff and international success, I think it's more likely he's in than not.

I have to be honest, I don't have much of a clue where Bergeron ranks historically in terms of defensive forwards, especially since the Selke has only been around since the 1970's. And yes, he is/was one of the best players during the Bruins recent playoff success and winning two gold medals doesn't hurt. But I just don't know how the voters will treat a two way forward with his offensive output. Players like Datsyuk, Toews and Kopitar are good comparables to Bergeron in my mind and all have had higher point totals during their primes while playing great defense at the center position. I also think that those 3 players are looked at as the undisputed #1 centers on their teams while Bergeron has always had Krejci as a 1A/B.

I guess it might largely depend on what happens the next few seasons. The Selke is sometimes seen as a reputation based award at times, so I wonder if that will hurt Bergeron at all. But if he continues his defensive play with 55+ points for the next 4-5 years and finishes with 4+ Selkes, I would definitely revise my opinion. Also, I wonder how the emergence of advanced statistics will alter Hall of Fame voting, which would most certainly aid Bergeron's argument.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Toews and Kane on the guaranteed list? Erik Karlsson as well?

These guys are really good players but it takes an incredibly special player to be talked about as having punched his ticket to the HOF with under 600 games played, and in Karlsson's case just under 400.

Not taking anything away from these guys. Karlsson is such a special scoring defenseman that if he only keeps up this level of play for 2-3 more years and tacks on some good years after that he will likely be an easy choice. Kane and Toews are both going to have to get into the 1,000 point club in all likelihood. In a few years they could be locks, but definitely not yet.

In my opinion Kane is arguably the best winger after Ovechkin (who's a lock himself). He's got two Cup rings, one Conn Smythe trophy, a Calder trophy, one finish as the first team All-Star. A OT cup winning goal. The stats to back it up not only in the RS but the playoffs. Obviously it's still early to proclaim them as lock but I'm willing to bet some good dough that him and Toews will both make it even if they regress to a 0.80PPG in the next seasons compared to their quasi-PPG pace. Kane is only 26 and needs 443 pts to reach the 1000 mark which is easily doable for him barring major injuries. Toews on the other hand just turned 27 and due to his complete game I see a Mark Messier-esque career where he'll play till his late 30s-early 40s if possible. I don't have a doubt that he'll finish with 1000 pts at the very least. For reasons cited in this thread by me and others, Karlsson and Toews both have the accomplishments and hardware to make it, we just have to give it time but unlike the Benn's, Tavares and Giroux's, they already have the stuff to back it up.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I have to be honest, I don't have much of a clue where Bergeron ranks historically in terms of defensive forwards, especially since the Selke has only been around since the 1970's. And yes, he is/was one of the best players during the Bruins recent playoff success and winning two gold medals doesn't hurt. But I just don't know how the voters will treat a two way forward with his offensive output. Players like Datsyuk, Toews and Kopitar are good comparables to Bergeron in my mind and all have had higher point totals during their primes while playing great defense at the center position. I also think that those 3 players are looked at as the undisputed #1 centers on their teams while Bergeron has always had Krejci as a 1A/B.

I guess it might largely depend on what happens the next few seasons. The Selke is sometimes seen as a reputation based award at times, so I wonder if that will hurt Bergeron at all. But if he continues his defensive play with 55+ points for the next 4-5 years and finishes with 4+ Selkes, I would definitely revise my opinion. Also, I wonder how the emergence of advanced statistics will alter Hall of Fame voting, which would most certainly aid Bergeron's argument.

They really aren't great comparables though. The three guys you mentioned are counted on as their team's primary offensive source (and are utilized accordingly), yet complement that with good defensive play. Bergeron, on the other hand, is utilized as a shutdown player first and foremost, and complements that with good offense as well.

You mentioned a 1A/1B situation with Krejci, and that detracts from Bergeron more than anything. Krejci has always been the guy that gets better match-ups and better offensive linemates, whereas Bergeron just has to work with what is given to him (by far the best player Bergeron has routinely played with is Marchand, and he is known for going into month/s long funks). You would be hard-pressed to find one Boston fan or member of management/coaching that thinks Krejci is better than Bergeron, but Krejci gets utilized as the 1C because of how dominant Bergeron is defensively. If you put Bergeron in Chicago in place of Toews, where he doesn't really have much competition from other centers to be the primary offensive source, his offensive utilization and total minutes played would go up and his numbers would probably go up as well.

 

[glovesave_35]

In my opinion Kane is arguably the best winger after Ovechkin (who's a lock himself). He's got two Cup rings, one Conn Smythe trophy, a Calder trophy, one finish as the first team All-Star. A OT cup winning goal. The stats to back it up not only in the RS but the playoffs. Obviously it's still early to proclaim them as lock but I'm willing to bet some good dough that him and Toews will both make it even if they regress to a 0.80PPG in the next seasons compared to their quasi-PPG pace. Kane is only 26 and needs 443 pts to reach the 1000 mark which is easily doable for him barring major injuries. Toews on the other hand just turned 27 and due to his complete game I see a Mark Messier-esque career where he'll play till his late 30s-early 40s if possible. I don't have a doubt that he'll finish with 1000 pts at the very least. For reasons cited in this thread by me and others, Karlsson and Toews both have the accomplishments and hardware to make it, we just have to give it time but unlike the Benn's, Tavares and Giroux's, they already have the stuff to back it up.

If your point is that they are all "on their way", ok. But, your wording in the OP upon my first reading was along the lines of "here are the players who have done enough to be considered 'in'" and I don't agree with that on any of them. They certainly are all on career paths that lead to the Hall, but they aren't there yet.

 

[glovesave_35]

If you put Bergeron in Chicago in place of Toews, where he doesn't really have much competition from other centers to be the primary offensive source, his offensive utilization and total minutes played would go up and his numbers would probably go up as well.

Isn't Toews played mostly against other teams' top lines? How much different do you really think Bergeron's utilization would be in Chicago from what it currently is? I don't have zone start charts or any of that in front of me, but I would wager Toews drives play similar to Bergeron, the main difference being the former has had better wingers for most of his career than Bergeron.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

They really aren't great comparables though. The three guys you mentioned are counted on as their team's primary offensive source (and are utilized accordingly), yet complement that with good defensive play. Bergeron, on the other hand, is utilized as a shutdown player first and foremost, and complements that with good offense as well.

You mentioned a 1A/1B situation with Krejci, and that detracts from Bergeron more than anything. Krejci has always been the guy that gets better match-ups and better offensive linemates, whereas Bergeron just has to work with what is given to him (by far the best player Bergeron has routinely played with is Marchand, and he is known for going into month/s long funks). You would be hard-pressed to find one Boston fan or member of management/coaching that thinks Krejci is better than Bergeron, but Krejci gets utilized as the 1C because of how dominant Bergeron is defensively. If you put Bergeron in Chicago in place of Toews, where he doesn't really have much competition from other centers to be the primary offensive source, his offensive utilization and total minutes played would go up and his numbers would probably go up as well.

To add to your point, Bergeron has shown when given a more offensive role that he can produce (see first two seasons post-lockout where he had 73 & 70 pts).

 

[Le Barron de HF]

If your point is that they are all "on their way", ok. But, your wording in the OP upon my first reading was along the lines of "here are the players who have done enough to be considered 'in'" and I don't agree with that on any of them. They certainly are all on career paths that lead to the Hall, but they aren't there yet.

The way I see it is let's say they had to retire because of some sort of injury. I think 30 years from now (or sooner/later) they'd be inducted because of the things they accomplished despite their relatively short career in such scenarios.

 

[glovesave_35]

To add to your point, Bergeron has shown when given a more offensive role that he can produce (see first two seasons post-lockout where he had 73 & 70 pts).

...when the league scoring was at a massive peak under the new rules following the lockout.

The way I see it is let's say they had to retire because of some sort of injury. I think 30 years from now (or sooner/later) they'd be inducted because of the things they accomplished despite their relatively short career in such scenarios.

I disagree on all three. I think in 30 years history will show just how solid of an all around team the Hawks have been during this period of team success, which is largely what boosts Kane and Toews.

If all three retired after this season for some injury reason not one would get in. Look at the scoring numbers for any of the players from the last 25'ish years who made the Hall. They all either have gaudy numbers from strong peak seasons combined with longevity or ridiculously high scoring peaks. Look at Forsberg as a recent example of a guy with a pretty incredibly low amount of games played. He played about 140 more games than Kane but has almost 330 more points.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

...when the league scoring was at a massive peak under the new rules following the lockout.



I disagree on all three. I think in 30 years history will show just how solid of an all around team the Hawks have been during this period of team success, which is largely what boosts Kane and Toews.

If all three retired after this season for some injury reason not one would get in. Look at the scoring numbers for any of the players from the last 25'ish years who made the Hall. They all either have gaudy numbers from strong peak seasons combined with longevity or ridiculously high scoring peaks. Look at Forsberg as a recent example of a guy with a pretty incredibly low amount of games played. He played about 140 more games than Kane but has almost 330 more points.

Yeah sure some players heavily benefitted from the amount of PP time following the lockout (players like Marek Svatos, Michael Nylander, JP Dumont, Shawn Horcoff, etc) but guys like Naslund, Modano, Iginla, St. Louis were all under a PPG. It still shows that Bergeron could get the job done and his numbers considering his usage are still excellent.

Yeah history will show that the Hawks were a solid team but it doesn't change the fact that these two were the catalyst of those championship teams (as their Conn Smythe trophies show). Kane had 64 pts in 61 GP playing with Richards and Versteeg on the second line. Nuff said. These players have been consistent and all have some solid hardware and a guy like Toews is not only seen as the face of the franchise but as done it all at a very young age. I'll give you that Forsberg is a good counter-argument to maybe raise my standards as for Kane & Toews' current accomplishments but I don't think I'm in the wrong by suggesting that they have done enough to justify their spot in the HHOF. As far as Karlsson is concerned, name me one defenseman (from the last generation) who can change the outcome of a game more than him? If you're going to suggest Green, I'll point out that the league's scoring has gone down and Karlsson doesn't have the same teammates as the former.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I personally think Toews could retire before Game 7 and he should be a lock. How many people have two cups, two world jr. Golds and two Olympic golds. Also only one of 26 players in the triple Gold Club. the youngest to achieve it at 22. This isn't the NHL HOF. its the HHOF.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Isn't Toews played mostly against other teams' top lines? How much different do you really think Bergeron's utilization would be in Chicago from what it currently is? I don't have zone start charts or any of that in front of me, but I would wager Toews drives play similar to Bergeron, the main difference being the former has had better wingers for most of his career than Bergeron.

Toews gets utilized like a typical top-line C in that the Hawks opt to use the bottom-6 grinder types like Kruger for more D-zone starts (and PK duty), and use Toews as much as possible in the O-zone.

You can actually see in this series that Chicago isn't pushing Toews against the Getzlaf line. Anaheim is a team that has a very clear #1 scoring line with Getzlaf/Perry and a very clear shutdown center in Kesler, and Chicago seems content letting Anaheim push the Kesler vs. Toews match-up instead of trying to get Toews to neutralize the Getzlaf line.

When you get Bergeron in a playoff series (or even regular season), he's on full-time Datsyuk-duty, Crosby-duty, etc. when Boston gets the opportunity for last change, no questions asked (and they'll try to do it on the road as well). Even when the primary offensive weapon is a winger like Ovechkin or Kessel, they assign Bergeron with that responsibility, and the faceoff numbers are there to back that up. Bergeron is actually probably the main reason Julien has been so dependent on match-ups in his Boston career.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I personally think Toews could retire before Game 7 and he should be a lock. How many people have two cups, two world jr. Golds and two Olympic golds. Also only one of 26 players in the triple Gold Club. the youngest to achieve it at 22. This isn't the NHL HOF. its the HHOF.

Congrats on all those awards playing on a stacked Olympic team Canada and the closest thing we have to a dynasty today.

 

[glovesave_35]

Yeah history will show that the Hawks were a solid team but it doesn't change the fact that these two were the catalyst of those championship teams (as their Conn Smythe trophies show). Kane had 64 pts in 61 GP playing with Richards and Versteeg on the second line. Nuff said. These players have been consistent and all have some solid hardware and a guy like Toews is not only seen as the face of the franchise but as done it all at a very young age. I'll give you that Forsberg is a good counter-argument to maybe raise my standards as for Kane & Toews' current accomplishments but I don't think I'm in the wrong by suggesting that they have done enough to justify their spot in the HHOF. As far as Karlsson is concerned, name me one defenseman (from the last generation) who can change the outcome of a game more than him? If you're going to suggest Green, I'll point out that the league's scoring has gone down and Karlsson doesn't have the same teammates as the former.

No offense, but your posts sound a lot like "this is what I think reality should be" rather than backing up your position with similar past situations. Karlsson is great, but name me one defenseman from after 1960 who is in the Hall with around 400 games played.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Congrats on all those awards playing on a stacked Olympic team Canada and the closest thing we have to a dynasty today.

So I guess its better to be a Sundin-type HHOF player then. Stand out cause you were the best player on a bunch of crap (other than2006 Olympics). Oh the horror that someone was burdened with playing on great teams. Hey maybe without him they don't win. Willing to bet both cups and both WJC gold aren't won without Toews, Olympics is far more understandable.

 

[Moops]

This may be hard to believe, but the Toronto Maple Leafs actually used to be good. At hockey, even. They were a perennial ploff team with Mats.

 

[Voight]

Congrats on all those awards playing on a stacked Olympic team Canada and the closest thing we have to a dynasty today.

You should congratulate him on being the best forward in a best on best competition, on the best team in the entire world, winning the Conn Smythe (and coming in 1 point shy of leading the playoffs in points) and winning a Selke.

Lets not forget he was asked to be TC's captain in 2014 but turned it down....

 

[GreatGonzo]

You should congratulate him on being the best forward in a best on best competition, on the best team in the entire world, winning the Conn Smythe (and coming in 1 point shy of leading the playoffs in points) and winning a Selke.

Lets not forget he was asked to be TC's captain in 2014 but turned it down....

I don't understand why people use his Olympic forward mvp as a basis of anything. He finished 5th in overall scoring and was a measly 1 point ahead of 4 other players on his team.

I just don't see the whole dominating factor in have 1 goal and 7 assists on the best team in the world. Sure he was MVP and that's great, but you can't ignore who he was player with

 

[Judas Tavares]

I think some ppl like to go to hockeydb, have a number in mind, see total points and go yay or nay.

 

[TheHockeyRant]

This thread would be better if it ONLY included players over the age of 35.

 

[Voight]

I don't understand why people use his Olympic forward mvp as a basis of anything. He finished 5th in overall scoring and was a measly 1 point ahead of 4 other players on his team.

I just don't see the whole dominating factor in have 1 goal and 7 assists on the best team in the world. Sure he was MVP and that's great, but you can't ignore who he was player with

You clearly didnt see him play in 2010 then.

And the team mate argument works for him, not against him. He was the best player on a team filled with most of the worlds 15 or 20 best players.

 

[Voight]

This thread would be better if it ONLY included players over the age of 35.

Off the top of my head - Chara, MSL, Jagr and Iggy. Thornton if he counts (Turns 36 in July).