Cups early top 90 for the 07 NHL entry draft.

FearTheFlyers

Registered User
Feb 3, 2003
7,545
0
Visit site
Jon Prescription continually embarrasses himself when he discusses CHL prospects. I can completely understand that he can't see a lot of them, but It's like me coming on here and trying to give people the low down on NCAA guys.

Hamill at 30? Esposito one-dimensional?

I don't get it.

BTW Cup, I like your list but I cannot see Matthew Kang going that high under any circumstance.
 

Bobby39

Registered User
Jan 19, 2007
34
0
I'm totally confused by the love in so many places for Katic. I can't claim to be an expert on the OHL or anything, but I've seen him a couple times now and just don't get it.

The guy seems to be almost an exact carbon copy of Kyle Cumiskey, who went 222nd overall in 2005. Identical size, identical physical/defensive game or lack thereof, very similar high-end skating and puck skills. If anything, I actually found Cumiskey to be a fair bit more dynamic in his draft year, although obviously I saw more of him.

Now granted, Cumiskey looks like a great pick where he went and would probably go 125 spots higher if you re-did that draft. Still nothing close to first-round material though. And same with Katic - the guy just screams 3rd-4th round gamble to me. I don't see how a shrimpy 5'9" no-grit defender (who is also putting up pretty average offensive numbers) goes in the top 20 picks. Or even the top 40 picks.

And I'm not singling you out because he seems to be that high pretty much everywhere. I'd just like to hear someone's explanation.

Go and watch Sarnia play and watch how many time the kid makes a tape to tape pass out of his own zone. With his skating he pretty much avoids any forcheck. I was not a fan until this season, when I began to watch him a little closer. In my mind he is a higher end version of Ian White with the Leafs. Does anyone remember Rafalski in his Draft year, I think teams have made too many mistakes passing on guys like this in the past and now that skill is at a premium I think someone will step up and take him in the 1st round. Just my two cents....
 

johnny canuckistan

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
2,139
0
Go and watch Sarnia play and watch how many time the kid makes a tape to tape pass out of his own zone. With his skating he pretty much avoids any forcheck. I was not a fan until this season, when I began to watch him a little closer. In my mind he is a higher end version of Ian White with the Leafs. Does anyone remember Rafalski in his Draft year, I think teams have made too many mistakes passing on guys like this in the past and now that skill is at a premium I think someone will step up and take him in the 1st round. Just my two cents....

I hate to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Rafalski was never drafted. He would have been eligible in 1991 or so, but he didn't play in the NHL until 1999. However, he had an excellent senior year with Wisconsin, and someone probably should have taken a chance on him then.

I agree with you otherwise, though - defencemen (small or otherwise) who can pass are a good commodity to have.
 

Hunter Gathers

The Crown
Feb 27, 2002
106,463
11,444
parts unknown
Jon Prescription continually embarrasses himself when he discusses CHL prospects. I can completely understand that he can't see a lot of them, but It's like me coming on here and trying to give people the low down on NCAA guys.

Hamill at 30? Esposito one-dimensional?

I don't get it.

BTW Cup, I like your list but I cannot see Matthew Kang going that high under any circumstance.

The games I've seen of Espo he's NEVER been a consistent defensive player. Maybe plays defense every other shift. He's fairly one dimensional. What's wrong with saying that? And why act like a jackass just because you disagree with me? :shakehead

And if you think I'm an idiot for having Hamill at 30, what would you say about McKeens who has him the same spot? Or ISS who don't even have him in their top 30? Sorry, but I'm not the only one who feels that way and you just showed your ignorance thinking that I was. :biglaugh:
 
Last edited:

Hunter Gathers

The Crown
Feb 27, 2002
106,463
11,444
parts unknown
?

Hit or miss?

Sorry, but I do not agree with that at all.

Well, personally I don't see Espo being anything but a 1st or 2nd liner. And I think he's a risky pick because his development seems to have slowed a tad. I mean, if I was picking in the top 15 I'd definitely take him somewhere in there based on his offensive game alone. He's worth the risk, IMO. I'd love for the Rangers to somehow get him.
 

turnbuckle*

Guest
I hate to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Rafalski was never drafted. He would have been eligible in 1991 or so, but he didn't play in the NHL until 1999. However, he had an excellent senior year with Wisconsin, and someone probably should have taken a chance on him then.

I agree with you otherwise, though - defencemen (small or otherwise) who can pass are a good commodity to have.

Even if you're not drafted you have a "draft year".

I don't see why some folks are so crazy about Hamill - the televised game theother night against Everett was a prime example. Hamill finished the game with three points, but did he climb into any scouts' top 15 with his performance? Hardly. A non descript second PP assist and gimme PP goal on a fabulous pass from Mueller. The play that stuck outy for me was him being beat for a breakaway opportunity by a 16-year-old because he didn't want to hustle. He's still unwilling to go into high traffic areas as well.

People like to look at his stats and proclaim him to translate into an NHL scorer..I'm not so positive that will happen.

Here are some other stats -

The majority of his points come on the power play - just look at the plus/minus - he's +5 while 17-year-old teammate Kyle Beach is +14.
Additionally, Hamill has six even-strength goals, not exactly earth shattering for a fourth-year offensive center.

IMO people that see Hamill as a 30th overall pick are a lot closer to what will transpire at the draft than the folks who are proclaiming that he'll be a top 15 pick.

We shall see.
 

Bobby39

Registered User
Jan 19, 2007
34
0
I hate to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Rafalski was never drafted. He would have been eligible in 1991 or so, but he didn't play in the NHL until 1999. However, he had an excellent senior year with Wisconsin, and someone probably should have taken a chance on him then.

I agree with you otherwise, though - defencemen (small or otherwise) who can pass are a good commodity to have.

I am glad we agree, my point was exactly that...he was overlooked by everyone, and it won't happen anymore the way the new game is played.
 

DanStewart

Registered User
Jun 5, 2003
2,654
283
Sarnia, Ontario
Great post, turnbuckle.

So Fear, any more smartass posts about how wrong it is to have Hamill around 30?

I do see where turnbuckle may get his perspective regarding Hamill from, Zach can be a little laxed on the backcheck at times as most offensive stars can be at his age but there is no denying his hands are top notch as well as his vision in the offensive zone.
 

faucette78

Registered User
Jan 6, 2005
95
0
Even if you're not drafted you have a "draft year".

I don't see why some folks are so crazy about Hamill - the televised game theother night against Everett was a prime example. Hamill finished the game with three points, but did he climb into any scouts' top 15 with his performance? Hardly. A non descript second PP assist and gimme PP goal on a fabulous pass from Mueller. The play that stuck outy for me was him being beat for a breakaway opportunity by a 16-year-old because he didn't want to hustle. He's still unwilling to go into high traffic areas as well.

People like to look at his stats and proclaim him to translate into an NHL scorer..I'm not so positive that will happen.

Here are some other stats -

The majority of his points come on the power play - just look at the plus/minus - he's +5 while 17-year-old teammate Kyle Beach is +14.
Additionally, Hamill has six even-strength goals, not exactly earth shattering for a fourth-year offensive center.

IMO people that see Hamill as a 30th overall pick are a lot closer to what will transpire at the draft than the folks who are proclaiming that he'll be a top 15 pick.

We shall see.

It was interesting that you used Kyle Beach as an example and not Peter Mueller who has worse +/- than Hamill at +2.
 

Buffalo87

thehosers dot com
Mar 22, 2006
7,255
1
Rochester
Jon Prescription continually embarrasses himself when he discusses CHL prospects. I can completely understand that he can't see a lot of them, but It's like me coming on here and trying to give people the low down on NCAA guys.

Hamill at 30? Esposito one-dimensional?

I don't get it.

I have seen very very few rankings with Hamill in the top 20 or so. There's no problem with him ranking him at 30, I haven't seen him enough to comment but based on rankings, that's pretty much exactly where he should be. And what exactly have you seen from Esposito that suggests he's not one-dimensional?
 

DanStewart

Registered User
Jun 5, 2003
2,654
283
Sarnia, Ontario
And what exactly have you seen from Esposito that suggests he's not one-dimensional?

His play...

sorry about the snide way I put it but that is all I can really say. He doesn't have the defensive assignments, his role with Quebec is top line offensive. He does backcheck on a pretty consistent basis and seems to always be in the right local.
 

Hunter Gathers

The Crown
Feb 27, 2002
106,463
11,444
parts unknown
His play...

sorry about the snide way I put it but that is all I can really say. He doesn't have the defensive assignments, his role with Quebec is top line offensive. He does backcheck on a pretty consistent basis and seems to always be in the right local.

Every report I've read has said he has very inconsistent backchecking and the few games I've seen him play that's been shown to me as well. He's not overly physical, but doesn't shy away from getting hit, at least. But he is NOT a consistent defensive player under any means. He plays defense when he feels like it, which might be every other shift.
 

DanStewart

Registered User
Jun 5, 2003
2,654
283
Sarnia, Ontario
Every report I've read has said he has very inconsistent backchecking and the few games I've seen him play that's been shown to me as well. He's not overly physical, but doesn't shy away from getting hit, at least. But he is NOT a consistent defensive player under any means. He plays defense when he feels like it, which might be every other shift.

I can only relay what I have witnessed.

There are alot of contradictions in the statments you made above and what I have seen. I have seen Espo play 7 times this year (not including his bad TP game showing because he was suffering the flu) and half a dozen times last year. All I can say is he has progressed in his defensive play from last season to this season.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
7,014
1
Ottawa
Visit site
Every report I've read has said he has very inconsistent backchecking and the few games I've seen him play that's been shown to me as well. He's not overly physical, but doesn't shy away from getting hit, at least. But he is NOT a consistent defensive player under any means. He plays defense when he feels like it, which might be every other shift.

I don't have a problem with someone not having Espo too high, but I must say, this focus on elite offensive talents ability and propensity to back check as means of dropping them down in the first round is a pretty big reach to me.

Radek Bonk was a one dimensional offensive player in Vegas who never played D, but a half dozen years later he was one of the better defensive centers out there. Marian Hossa was accused of being a player who never came back to his zone and many scouting reports had him as TOTALLY one dimensional and he is quite possibly the best defensive forward I've ever seen.

Going back even further, Yannik Perrault was seen as a pure offensive player coming out of the Q in his day, who many scouts said was too slow and one dimensionally offensive to ever make in the NHL. Offensive talent in the end, is about 4th on the list of the best parts of his game.

The bottom line is these were very talented forwards. The finer aspects of the defensive game can be taught. In fact, it's one of the few things that can be taught.

Not to single you out, but this back checking stuff and the fact a player hasn't "rounded out his game" at the age of 17 is pretty low on the list of things to look for in offensively gifted forwards (in the case of a d-man like Katic, it's a different story).

And as I recall, you defended Kessel pretty vigorously as the top pick last year against much of the same criticism you are giving Espo. Dropping Espo too low doesn't make any more sense than those who dropped Kessel out of the top 10. If you feel he can't take his game in traffic or handle physical play, that's one thing, but to say he's doesn't belong amongst the elite players because he is selective when exhibiting a defensive commitment is pretty weak. From what I've seen from Espo, he's embraced the physical parts of the game enough to say he has made real progress this year. As to coming back in his own, I've watched Kane float waiting for a break the other way enough to know he has a long way to go, but that wouldn't stop me from nabbing him in the top 10 picks without hesitation. Same goes for Espo.

Just an observation.
 

DanStewart

Registered User
Jun 5, 2003
2,654
283
Sarnia, Ontario
I don't have a problem with someone not having Espo too high, but I must say, this focus on elite offensive talents ability and propensity to back check as means of dropping them down in the first round is a pretty big reach to me.

Radek Bonk was a one dimensional offensive player in Vegas who never played D, but a half dozen years later he was one of the better defensive centers out there. Marian Hossa was accused of being a player who never came back to his zone and many scouting reports had him as TOTALLY one dimensional and he is quite possibly the best defensive forward I've ever seen.

Going back even further, Yannik Perrault was seen as a pure offensive player coming out of the Q in his day, who many scouts said was too slow and one dimensionally offensive to ever make in the NHL. Offensive talent in the end, is about 4th on the list of the best parts of his game.

The bottom line is these were very talented forwards. The finer aspects of the defensive game can be taught. In fact, it's one of the few things that can be taught.

Not to single you out, but this back checking stuff and the fact a player hasn't "rounded out his game" at the age of 17 is pretty low on the list of things to look for in offensively gifted forwards (in the case of a d-man like Katic, it's a different story).

And as I recall, you defended Kessel pretty vigorously as the top pick last year against much of the same criticism you are giving Espo. Dropping Espo too low doesn't make any more sense than those who dropped Kessel out of the top 10. If you feel he can't take his game in traffic or handle physical play, that's one thing, but to say he's doesn't belong amongst the elite players because he is selective when exhibiting a defensive commitment is pretty weak. From what I've seen from Espo, he's embraced the physical parts of the game enough to say he has made real progress this year. As to coming back in his own, I've watched Kane float waiting for a break the other way enough to know he has a long way to go, but that wouldn't stop me from nabbing him in the top 10 picks without hesitation. Same goes for Espo.

Just an observation.

Well said.
 

Hunter Gathers

The Crown
Feb 27, 2002
106,463
11,444
parts unknown
I never said his backchecking and his unroundedness is why I think he's fallen.

I said that it seems other players have caught up to him and his development slowed a bit to me.
 

Bjindaho

Registered User
Jun 12, 2006
6,710
1,553
I don't have a problem with someone not having Espo too high, but I must say, this focus on elite offensive talents ability and propensity to back check as means of dropping them down in the first round is a pretty big reach to me.

Radek Bonk was a one dimensional offensive player in Vegas who never played D, but a half dozen years later he was one of the better defensive centers out there. Marian Hossa was accused of being a player who never came back to his zone and many scouting reports had him as TOTALLY one dimensional and he is quite possibly the best defensive forward I've ever seen.

Going back even further, Yannik Perrault was seen as a pure offensive player coming out of the Q in his day, who many scouts said was too slow and one dimensionally offensive to ever make in the NHL. Offensive talent in the end, is about 4th on the list of the best parts of his game.

The bottom line is these were very talented forwards. The finer aspects of the defensive game can be taught. In fact, it's one of the few things that can be taught.

Not to single you out, but this back checking stuff and the fact a player hasn't "rounded out his game" at the age of 17 is pretty low on the list of things to look for in offensively gifted forwards (in the case of a d-man like Katic, it's a different story).

And as I recall, you defended Kessel pretty vigorously as the top pick last year against much of the same criticism you are giving Espo. Dropping Espo too low doesn't make any more sense than those who dropped Kessel out of the top 10. If you feel he can't take his game in traffic or handle physical play, that's one thing, but to say he's doesn't belong amongst the elite players because he is selective when exhibiting a defensive commitment is pretty weak. From what I've seen from Espo, he's embraced the physical parts of the game enough to say he has made real progress this year. As to coming back in his own, I've watched Kane float waiting for a break the other way enough to know he has a long way to go, but that wouldn't stop me from nabbing him in the top 10 picks without hesitation. Same goes for Espo.

Just an observation.

Radek Bonk has trouble making the lineup because he is a terrible defensive forward. That is why Ottawa wanted to trade him so badly too.

Yannic Perrault still is extremely one-dimensional. So much so that he is most efficient when he is a fourth liner who gets first power play time.

The problem with Espo is that he doesn't try. And he doesn't like getting hit. He shies from contact. If his team doesn't have the puck, he looks terrible out there. Luckily, he has good linemates.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
7,014
1
Ottawa
Visit site
Radek Bonk has trouble making the lineup because he is a terrible defensive forward. That is why Ottawa wanted to trade him so badly too.

Yannic Perrault still is extremely one-dimensional. So much so that he is most efficient when he is a fourth liner who gets first power play time.

The problem with Espo is that he doesn't try. And he doesn't like getting hit. He shies from contact. If his team doesn't have the puck, he looks terrible out there. Luckily, he has good linemates.

Bonk had trouble making the Ottawa line-up because his supposed pro-ready offesnive skills were not so pro ready. He isn't terribly fast, and as many players find out, that difference in speed between the IHL/AHL and the NHL can make the difference from being an impact offensive player in the minor pros to a fringe player in the NHL. His defensive play was also not great, but to suggest Ottawa wanted to trade him because of his defensive defficiencies is just plain wrong.

I'm not going to turn this into a Perrault thread, but let's just say I disagree with how you categorize someone as one-dimensional (you can't be both a powerplay specialist and a face-off specialist and be one-dimensional, can you?)

As to Espo, the few times I've seen him, he didn't shy away from the physical stuff, although he didn't look dominant out there either. That said, your take on him is a fine reason to drop your estimation of where he should go. It was the idea of "dropping an offensive player because he doesn't play great defence yet" point that I disagreed with (and wasn't just singling out JP, he just made the same point a lot of posters have it seems).
 

Ban Hammered

Disallowed & Inhibited
May 15, 2003
7,045
950
Cup, why so high on John Lee of Moorhead? I get to see a lot of Spuds games and he hasn't looked that good to me. He seems almost scared with the puck, especially moving it on the PP. I am impressed with Jeff Foss who's Moorhead's captain.
And what's your impression of Jordy Christian?
 

Redwingsfan

Global Moderator
Jul 15, 2006
20,370
187
Esposito #1 on ANY list makes me question it. And he's #1 on this list. And Hamil #2. Are we trapped in late 2005?

i was kind of wondering the same the same thing. this looks like a ranking posted a year ago or something. couture and kane is way to low and hamill and espo dont belong in the top 5.
 

kingpin_19

Registered User
Jan 5, 2005
391
0
Drumheller, AB
1. Logan Couture
2. Alexei Cherepanov
3. Karl Alzner
4. Angelo Esposito
5. James Van Riemsdyk
6. Sam Gagner
7. Jakub Voracek
8. Zach Hamill
9. Kyle Turris
10. Patrick Kane

kingpin's top 10

Any takers?
 

Redwingsfan

Global Moderator
Jul 15, 2006
20,370
187
Jon Prescription continually embarrasses himself when he discusses CHL prospects. I can completely understand that he can't see a lot of them, but It's like me coming on here and trying to give people the low down on NCAA guys.

Hamill at 30? Esposito one-dimensional?

I don't get it.

BTW Cup, I like your list but I cannot see Matthew Kang going that high under any circumstance.

i agree with him actually. and he is right most of the times. i remember a while back when esposito was ranked #1 everywhere. he said that he is going to drop big time. and now he is a questionable top 10 pick. i have a lot of issues with this ranking. hamill, esposito, and sutter is way to high and couture and kane should be higher imo, but it doesnt really look like the guy that posted these rankings are interested in listening to other peoples opinion.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->