Culture, Dave Scott, and Hockey Ops discussion

[Magua]

Hopefully, this debacle will give him the authority to make some necessary moves, better one step backward than two steps sideways.

I guess that’s our difference in perspectives: I expect two steps sideways. Or a step backward with the intent of a step forward. Perpetual liminality.

 

[achdumeingute]

Maybe I’ll get proven wrong, but they are in a very similar situation today.

Drawing out the inevitable when the club is screaming a need for a true rebuild.

A few more prospects sure, but I feel like we have been here before.

I don’t hate them by any means, but I’ve got an increasing feeling Hextall’s kids aren’t nearly enough.

we really need a wester conference team's "Erik Karlsson/Chris Pronger's" wife to want out of some city.

 

[FlyerNutter]

we really need a wester conference team's "Erik Karlsson/Chris Pronger's" wife to want out of some city.

What they need is to stop lying to the fanbase and themselves that they have a rats ass chance at actually doing anything beyond winning a couple rounds.

This doesn’t smell like anything close to a cup contender, and while I point the majority of on ice struggles at coaching - there is a talent void as well.

One that isn’t going to be saved by injecting Hamilton or a mid first round prospect.

Nuke this bitch sky high. The dirty unrealistic dreams I have. One can dream though. One can dream.

 

[Redpath]

Do we think there is anything that can happen that gets the coach and/or GM fired? A few more embarrassing blowout losses?

I don't think there is any feasible scenario where Fletcher gets fired. If the season stays this bad, and even manages to get worse, I do think AV will be fired.

 

[Embiid]

What if the Flyers decided to completely tank after the 2006-07 season?

This is actually lame...but agree the constant retooling has not fared well

 

[FlyerNutter]

I don't think there is any feasible scenario where Fletcher gets fired. If the season stays this bad, and even manages to get worse, I do think AV will be fired.

It seems it will have to be Scott to step in to do it. Fletcher’s very quick response to not exploring any changes behind the bench is a sign in my eyes. He could have done a more PC answer but it was simply a “no”.

The feeling I get is the blame is on the players first and foremost. Still though. Let’s say they crumble to the end, and have a few more blowouts.

I can’t believe Scott with Clarke/Homer still somewhat whispering sweet nothings in the background wouldn’t force a change.

Maybe that’s optimism. Shall see. It was very telling that after radio silence for all of Hextall’s tenure we immediately had “leaks” about what a monster he was after his firing. The media messaging is firmly fixed on the players this season.

 

[Redpath]

What if the Flyers decided to completely tank after the 2006-07 season?

Not bashing you specifically for this, but revisiting a draft and saying "What if we managed to take all the late round superstars" is not very introspective. Lost me after the trades.

 

[Redpath]

It seems it will have to be Scott to step in to do it. Fletcher’s very quick response to not exploring any changes behind the bench is a sign in my eyes. He could have done a more PC answer but it was simply a “no”.

The feeling I get is the blame is on the players first and foremost. Still though. Let’s say they crumble to the end, and have a few more blowouts.

I can’t believe Scott with Clarke/Homer still somewhat whispering sweet nothings in the background wouldn’t force a change.

Maybe that’s optimism. Shall see. It was very telling that after radio silence for all of Hextall’s tenure we immediately had “leaks” about what a monster he was after his firing. The media messaging is firmly fixed on the players this season.

Which is why I am rooting for things to stay as bad as possible. I want there to be enough pressure on Fletcher from Scott to guarantee action, without Scott actually getting directly involved. God forbid we have a Comcast executive meddling in roster decisions.

I did address that in my OP, but I'm ultimately not too worried about Fletcher's "No" answer about coaching changes. He can give full confidence in them today, and "have a change of heart" in 2 months. No sense in throwing anyone under the bus until the actual witching hour occurs.

I'd really like to know what influence Homer still has with Scott. "Senior Advisor" may be a glorified paycheck, or it may be someone that actually has some sway still. I know none of us want Homer meddling in things really anymore, but at least he has a better pulse on hockey operations than Scott does.

 

[deadhead]

What if the Flyers decided to completely tank after the 2006-07 season?

That's so BS, cherry pick with hindsight.
A better question, what if Holmgren decided to follow up the Carter and Richard trades with a full rebuild in 2012, realizing that without Pronger, they had no shot to go deep in the playoffs.

trade Hartnell at 29, coming off a 37 goal season
trade Briere at 33, coming off a 49 point season
trade Kimmo at 36, coming off a 43 point season
trade Talbot at 27

build around Giroux (25), Simmonds (24), Voracek (23), Read (26), Couts (20), JVR (23), Schenn (21), Coburn (27), Gustafsson (24), Bob (24).

 

[Embiid]

Not bashing you specifically for this, but revisiting a draft and saying "What if we managed to take all the late round superstars" is not very introspective. Lost me after the trades.

Yes....I qualified the post. The retooling not working is what I agreed with but Holmgren and Snider said the Flyers don't tank...(read rebuild)

 

[GKJ]

Do we think there is anything that can happen that gets the coach and/or GM fired? A few more embarrassing blowout losses?

I think the only thing that happens is if the players, as a 20+-man unit, go to the GM with it, similar to Bill Barber and I think that probably happened with Berube too in exit interviews. When Barber was fired, they straight up went to the press with it and didn't give them a choice. We talked about it in a previous game, the players were absolutely buried for doing that to a pillar of the franchise, and that was also a players room that was fractured with so many personalties, and brought in Hitchcock in part to serve a purpose that this current college of coaches we have were supposed to do.

As an aside, people should seek out the interview Glen Macnow and Ray Didinger did with Hitch pretty recently, he went into pretty good detail. He admitted as much, he signed on to be the coach here to get the team on the right track the following season but what he didn't expect was that he was Donald Glover walking into a fiery inferno with a stack of pizzas. In short, Hitch spent the entire summer he was hired going back and forth with players and what their issues were with other players, culminating with some dinner the team had before the season where he basically made everyone speak their peace, as once the night was over they were to move on he didn't want to hear about it anymore. They started that season in western Canada and did a team building retreat in Banff which they repeated elsewhere a few times.

 

[renberg]

I don’t think that Fletcher knew how big the job is that he has here. He probably thought re-tool when it’s still rebuild. Right now he has to decide what the Flyers of 2021 will be in the future that will sell tickets and win in this town. Unfortunately for him that dye has been cast.
Looming over everything today is the past. Ed Snider built a money making machine in this town with a certain type of hockey, that being a highly competitive club. It made Flyers tix the toughest to get in town for decades. The players were heroes in the city.
Like it or not, Fletcher has to understand what is Philadelphia hockey. If he moves away from that, he loses his fan base/$$$$. The fans will even support losing if the team competes. Soft hockey that wins is not really what’s wanted here. Soft hockey that loses draws nothing but scorn in this town.

 

[Embiid]

That's so BS, cherry pick with hindsight.
A better question, what if Holmgren decided to follow up the Carter and Richard trades with a full rebuild in 2012, realizing that without Pronger, they had no shot to go deep in the playoffs.

trade Hartnell at 29, coming off a 37 goal season
trade Briere at 33, coming off a 49 point season
trade Kimmo at 36, coming off a 43 point season
trade Talbot at 27

build around Giroux (25), Simmonds (24), Voracek (23), Read (26), Couts (20), JVR (23), Schenn (21), Coburn (27), Gustafsson (24), Bob (24).

Agree...Holmgren screwed the pooch following the Richards and Carter deals.

 

[GKJ]

Holmgren, and this team's biggest problem, was that in a cap world you needed to have a longer-term plan, and they never had one. They were always year-to-year as they were before. And no one will ever convince me otherwise that they weren't embarrassed by the fact that the Kings won the Cup immediately upon obtaining Richards and Carter and likely hastened Lavy's and Holmgren's exit. The scouting department under Holmgren's watch being an abject failure didn't help things.

 

[Embiid]

Holmgren was always chasing the success of the last team to win the cup instead of establishing an organizational identity that others would follow. He was not a visionary but a reactionary. Those who follow never come in first.

 

[GKJ]

I don’t think that Fletcher knew how big the job is that he has here. He probably thought re-tool when it’s still rebuild. Right now he has to decide what the Flyers of 2021 will be in the future that will sell tickets and win in this town. Unfortunately for him that dye has been cast.
Looming over everything today is the past. Ed Snider built a money making machine in this town with a certain type of hockey, that being a highly competitive club. It made Flyers tix the toughest to get in town for decades. The players were heroes in the city.
Like it or not, Fletcher has to understand what is Philadelphia hockey. If he moves away from that, he loses his fan base/$$$$. The fans will even support losing if the team competes. Soft hockey that wins is not really what’s wanted here. Soft hockey that loses draws nothing but scorn in this town.

Ok, I'm going to post what I prepared earlier, kind of my old school circa 2009 long form posts I used to do since this post comes the closest of some of the more real discussions that I think is supposed to be the purpose of this thread. Somehow this never mentions AV or Ed Snider by name, and only Giroux's expiring contract next year. I don't think Fletcher's standing can be eschewed without business context.

These are things I've been thinking about for a while here now, there's a lot of things about this that go beyond the stats. This is a topic that doesn't need to be filled with what people's xG's are. We can talk about the culture and the hockey ops, but that also includes the business ops. The inaction of the hockey ops here may have been stomached, but I am pretty confident business ops are absolutely furious. They gotta sell this product, and they're going to take the heat from the fans they connect with (e.g. STH's) for things they are not really accountable for. This whole paragraph I wrote before the next three or four which was to be my main point and I probably repeat some of it.

It's amazing how everyone is both annoyed at Dave Scott for being silent for 2 years while at the same time in complete fear that he's trying to pull too many strings. That isn't to be critical of what anyone thinks of that. I think the reality is very much closer the latter. One thing I've read and heard often from national writers is that people should not underestimate the pressure GM's are under to make the playoffs this season. It's not to make money in the playoffs, but everyone's marketing departments have to be able to sell a return to full crowd in an economy where people will have way less disposable income and they're not going to lower prices. They have to sell season tickets, because there's no other star attraction they're going to be able to get that could mitigate that with single games.

For those who think Dave Scott just sees the Flyers as a Comcast asset to bring in the dollars - let me tell you what you don't want IMO. You don't want for Comcast to decide this ain't worth it. As a conglomerate, Comcast basically prints money, the best thing for the Flyers would be for them to remain a profitable yet innocuous asset that the Flyers can tap into as needed as the world recovers from a pandemic while no one at Comcast pays attention. As owners of NBC, Comcast is already cutting out their national sports network which has been in the midst of surpassing ESPN2 - they have been successful with NBCSN, they have generally followed their long-term masterplan despite and they're still cutting it and don't have to. We don't want Comcast to sell to a group of millionaires or a single billionaire owner who can decide that they can't fire a coach because they don't want to pay another one, or that the GM gets a new player budget every season. One team I refer to often in that is the Florida Panthers, where a year after paying Sergei Bobrovsky $10M/year their hockey ops were told they had to cut salary by $10M and traded Vincent Trocheck for peanuts.

This team threw in the towel on that and are not going to have made the playoffs in consecutive seasons since Lavy was coach. Even in 2018 when they did make the playoffs and had a number of players have career years, there was zero buzz in town for a playoff series against our primary rival. The coverage the team gets in town is always negative if they even get any at all. Unless Covid was a bigger factor than we're aware of, this will be the worst of them all. I am a STH, and quite frankly I am smarter than their sales pitches as many of you are, but I still took the call and heard them. The young team everyone was promised for years has let them down, and their marketing and sales pushed Carter Hart very hard. I think my rep's exact words were 'we finally have the goaltender,' and I chuckled but didn't really stop him because I knew what I think about what happens with goaltending in this league, but I can promise you there's a lot of people out there who heard that pitch and watch him have literally the worst season any goaltender has had who are chomping at the bit to clap back. It's one thing for your hockey ops to lack credibility, it's another thing when the business ops fall short in generating sales because they too lack the credibility.

I don't think Fletcher is in a safe position as people think. He's not getting fired this year unless there's something we don't see out there, but he's had to fend off the dogs above him once before when he was hired - he was hired under the pretense that he was going to get aggressive to get back in the playoff mix in 2018-19. And now this has happened this year. It may not seem like it, but he's going to be under rather scrupulous pressure for the rest of this calendar year and probably the rest of whatever time he has left here. He's not only going to have to be aggressive, but he's going to have to be right on everything he does. The way this season has played out, I'm pretty confident that Fletcher has pretty close to zero room for error. There's no more bad luck, or things happening, or any other mitigating factors. The Flyers have always been about do or do not. The fanbase has been cultured that they are to be judged on what they do in the playoffs. The last time the Flyers sunk into irrelevance, they went out and got Lindros, but that guy isn't out there now. A new generation of young millennials and zoomers are being cultured that the Flyers are irrelevant and have nothing to offer them. Sports is more and more in the business of entertainment and attractions and the Flyers lack both. Really, the sport itself does too.

We all know the team has to have a buzzworthy off-season. But I think they not only have to have a buzzworthy off-season but also start hot next season, AND maintain it into the playoffs - oh by the way there's a flat cap. And the thing they need most is the least attainable - a star attraction, because that should be a player(s) and not your mascot. And make no mistake that the star player of the Philadelphia Flyers is Gritty and it has been that way almost from the moment he was introduced - Gritty is the most visible thing about the Philadelphia Flyers, so imagine how worse off they would be if there was no Gritty.

Patience has been asked for again when it has not been earned, but they've made their bed so now they're going to lie in it. Here's the harsh reality of the direction of the team: I've always said this is a 3-year program leading up to the expiration of Giroux's and Couturier's contracts. Business-wise, unless the team shows themselves to be a contender next season and go deep in the playoffs, it inherently becomes a 5-year program because everyone's seen the every-other year thing, they won't be able to sell the product next summer either, unless they have a year poor enough where they really do burn the whole thing down, then we are through the looking glass.

 

[Dooble08]

Hey come to the Flyers games at the Wells Fargo Center to see Gritty or to have a go in the Rage Room. We're making it the best "experience" for fans. Too bad the organization doesn't realize that having a decent product on the ice is more important than the "experience". I don't care if I'd have to go sit in a miserable sh*tty building, such as Nassau Coliseum, as long as the Flyers put up a good showing on the ice.

 

[deadhead]

Thing is, they have done a good job of rebuilding, problem is when you do it with late 1st rd and later round players, they arrive at 22-24 instead of 19-21, which is why tanking works, get Crosby, Malkin and Letang, and you can gradually surround them with good players and break out - of course, if you can't do that, you have Edmonton! But even that takes time, Colorado missed the playoffs 6 of 7 seasons, then lost in the 1st rd and 2nd rd twice before this season. So ten years to finally be a legitimate SC contender.

The problem with the Flyers is the FO has always overestimated the talent, Boston can reload, we needed to rebuild.

Either go forward or go back, that is, either they are a serious contender next year, or fire AV, hire a young coach from the AHL who is used to working with young players, dump the remaining veterans and suck for two years to get top ten picks to add to a deep lineup of good but not great prospects. Just don't settle for bubble playoff team.

 

[Starat327]

Thing is, they have done a good job of rebuilding, problem is when you do it with late 1st rd and later round players, they arrive at 22-24 instead of 19-21, which is why tanking works, get Crosby, Malkin and Letang, and you can gradually surround them with good players and break out - of course, if you can't do that, you have Edmonton! But even that takes time, Colorado missed the playoffs 6 of 7 seasons, then lost in the 1st rd and 2nd rd twice before this season. So ten years to finally be a legitimate SC contender.

The problem with the Flyers is the FO has always overestimated the talent, Boston can reload, we needed to rebuild.

Either go forward or go back, that is, either they are a serious contender next year, or fire AV, hire a young coach from the AHL who is used to working with young players, dump the remaining veterans and suck for two years to get top ten picks to add to a deep lineup of good but not great prospects. Just don't settle for bubble playoff team.

This is kind of the issue now though, no? Sell Giroux and this team has no one to lead it, let alone anyone worthwhile to sell tickets to - Dave Scotts main concern. Sell the youth, to get better, and with AV behind the bench, unless you sell it for the RIGHT vets, you arent getting anywhere. And given AV has been able to build teams to his liking in the past and still not able to "get the job done"... does that really put us in a better spot? Its selling the future for small time short success, and thats doesn help season tickets (read: Dave Scott) either.

The team doesnt have a good path forward currently given the way its being run.

 

[Swic21]

Man just had a monster message typed out, phone glitched, it all erased lol. Basically i mentioned how our “ young” guys haven’t quite panned out to the way we have expected. Yes they are all still young and have time, Patrick hasn’t shown the ability of a typical number 2 pick. Lindblom had the tragedy strike amongst his breakout season. Myers has taken a massive step back after a promising season. Morin is in and out of the lineup after the failed winger experiment. Hagg is Hagg. Ghost had those few big seasons, and has slowed ever since.
I’m not saying none of them can pan out or will be impactful, I am saying I haven’t seen any of these guys as potential G or Jake replacements. I mean we have another influx of young guys coming, but I wouldn’t say any of them have superstar/ franchise player type potential. I didn’t even mention the mess that has been Frost. Still pulling for the kid, but I personally don’t see the appeal. Just my opinion. But not a Frost fan. Doesn’t seem to be overly fast as he was advertised. Makes a nice play once every 3-4 games. But I hope he becomes a solid player, I personally don’t see it. Tbh, I see him turning into a Jordan Weal. Ill be the first to admit I’m wrong, and I hope I am. But I don’t see the “ special player” some people see.

 

[Starat327]

Ghost hasnt slowed. Hes actualy become much more well rounded.

But damn if stereotypes dont die hard.

 

[deadhead]

Ghost has slowed, he's finally adjusted to the reality he can't do what he did five years ago and is making fewer mistakes, but it's taken some "tough love" for him to buy in. He's skating better than he has the last few years but now picks his spots to do his "shake and bake," and is not making those egregious blue line turnovers leading to odd man rushes. He still struggles at time in the D-zone with aggressive forechecks, but he's more reliable than Sanheim in those situations.

Ghost does show how progress isn't linear even with experienced players, a career is a series of adjustments, to injuries, to new schemes, to age. Some players make those adjustments better than others. One reason coaches like "proven veterans" is they don't have to deal with those issues.

I do think this isn't the ideal coaching staff for a young team, they have a lot of HC experience, but none of them have coached at say the AHL level for decades and want to win games more than patiently work with players on fundamentals and techniques. That's an organizational flaw going down to Gordon, lack of investment in player coaching. AV had a young team in NY, but it was a 24-28 year old young team, we have a really young team with half the roster 25 and under and getting younger.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This organization's approach to player development is entirely broken and needs to be entirely overhauled. There's no way around it.

 

[Rebels57]

Man just had a monster message typed out, phone glitched, it all erased lol. Basically i mentioned how our “ young” guys haven’t quite panned out to the way we have expected. Yes they are all still young and have time, Patrick hasn’t shown the ability of a typical number 2 pick. Lindblom had the tragedy strike amongst his breakout season. Myers has taken a massive step back after a promising season. Morin is in and out of the lineup after the failed winger experiment. Hagg is Hagg. Ghost had those few big seasons, and has slowed ever since.
I’m not saying none of them can pan out or will be impactful, I am saying I haven’t seen any of these guys as potential G or Jake replacements. I mean we have another influx of young guys coming, but I wouldn’t say any of them have superstar/ franchise player type potential. I didn’t even mention the mess that has been Frost. Still pulling for the kid, but I personally don’t see the appeal. Just my opinion. But not a Frost fan. Doesn’t seem to be overly fast as he was advertised. Makes a nice play once every 3-4 games. But I hope he becomes a solid player, I personally don’t see it. Tbh, I see him turning into a Jordan Weal. Ill be the first to admit I’m wrong, and I hope I am. But I don’t see the “ special player” some people see.

I think Farabee will be as good or better than prime Voracek.

We don't currently have a prime Giroux level player in the system though.

 

[CutOnDime97]

I don't think there is any feasible scenario where Fletcher gets fired. If the season stays this bad, and even manages to get worse, I do think AV will be fired.

Yeah I have no clue what would put Fletch on the hot seat or any idea how to judge that.

My guess is AV starts as coach next year and if it doesn't go well he gets canned then.