CSKA's forechecking

[Kshahdoo]

I've just watched this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1d3NWl1nN4 and what impressed me the most was CSKA forchecking. It looked like they forchecked the whole 60 min with 2 or even 3 men, and it was a very effective tactics.

And now I compare this to yesterday's Blues - Hawks game. Both teams are among the grittiest in the league with very good defense. But their forchecking wasn't even remotely close to CSKA's one by intensity and effectiveness.

Is forchecking considered a bad tactics by modern standarts?

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[Canadiens1958]

Red Line

I've just watched this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1d3NWl1nN4 and what impressed me the most was CSKA forchecking. It looked like they forchecked the whole 60 min with 2 or even 3 men, and it was a very effective tactics.

And now I compare this to yesterday's Blues - Hawks game. Both teams are among the grittiest in the league with very good defense. But their forchecking wasn't even remotely close to CSKA's one by intensity and effectiveness.

Is forchecking considered a bad tactics by modern standarts?

Red line offside was in effect in 1985-86, not today.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Red line offside was in effect in 1985-86, not today.

And what? It's still the same tactics to overcome forchecking - a few good passes. It doesn't depend on where your red line is. And the team that forchecks still has 2-3 players in defense. But if it succeeds it's an immediate and very dangerous attack.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

And what? It's still the same tactics to overcome forchecking - a few good passes. It doesn't depend on where your red line is. And the team that forchecks still has 2-3 players in defense. But if it succeeds it's an immediate and very dangerous attack.

The 2-3 players in defense have more ice to cover and are more spread out-->easier for opposition to get open-->easier to get rid of the puck for those being forechecked

 

[Kshahdoo]

The 2-3 players in defense have more ice to cover and are more spread out-->easier for opposition to get open-->easier to get rid of the puck for those being forechecked

Yes, but CSKA forchecked on the big ice as well. And i guess on the big ice the checked space was roughly the same size as it's now on the small ice.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Transition

And what? It's still the same tactics to overcome forchecking - a few good passes. It doesn't depend on where your red line is. And the team that forchecks still has 2-3 players in defense. But if it succeeds it's an immediate and very dangerous attack.

The purpose of the forecheck was to limit the one pass transition exit thru the neutral zone to the red line.

More than one pass inside the defensive blue line slows the offence of the team coming out of defensive zone since the forwards would have to slow down with the red line offside if there was more than one pass.

Once you talk more than one pass as you are "...a few good passes..", the forecheck has done its job.

 

[Kshahdoo]

The purpose of the forecheck was to limit the one pass transition exit thru the neutral zone to the red line.

More than one pass inside the defensive blue line slows the offence of the team coming out of defensive zone since the forwards would have to slow down with the red line offside if there was more than one pass.

Once you talk more than one pass as you are "...a few good passes..", the forecheck has done its job.

Hmm, as far as I remember Tikhonov's approach, forcheck's main goal was to generate even more offencive chances, and only then to slow the opponent's offence. There even was a slogan "Soviet hockey lives by the offence". And it's exactly what I saw in that game vs Montreal. And you may notice the best forcheckers were superstars like Makarov, Krutov, Khomutov, so as soon as they got a puck, Montreal's end was getting in a total mess.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Hmm, as far as I remember Tikhonov's approach, forcheck's main goal was to generate even more offencive chances, and only then to slow the opponent's offence. There even was a slogan "Soviet hockey lives by the offence". And it's exactly what I saw in that game vs Montreal. And you may notice the best forcheckers were superstars like Makarov, Krutov, Khomutov, so as soon as they got a puck, it was a total disaster in Montreal's end.

The two are related...looking at what C1958 said, when the red line was eliminated, the transition game changed, and the risk probably began to outweigh the reward of generating more offensive chances

 

[Canadiens1958]

Forecheck

Hmm, as far as I remember Tikhonov's approach, forcheck's main goal was to generate even more offencive chances, and only then to slow the opponent's offence. There even was a slogan "Soviet hockey lives by the offence". And it's exactly what I saw in that game vs Montreal. And you may notice the best forcheckers were superstars like Makarov, Krutov, Khomutov, so as soon as they got a puck, Montreal's end was getting in a total mess.

The forecheck pre dates Soviet hockey. Problem was that the European teams could not play an aggressive forecheck - with body contact in the offensive zone, until the fall of 1969 when IIHF allowed bodychecking in all zones.

Superstar players were always the best forecheckers in the O6 era and into the 1990s.

The 2-3 man forecheck is simply the old 2-1-2 adapted by the Soviets. Just a question of how the forward triangle is positioned.

 

[Kshahdoo]

The two are related...looking at what C1958 said, when the red line was eliminated, the transition game changed, and the risk probably began to outweigh the reward of generating more offensive chances

But as far as I remember the red line was eliminated to counter all those neutral zone traps. So it seems like NHL teams renounced forchecking even before the red line's eliminating.

And to overcome forcheck, you gotta be pretty good hockey sense wise. Most modern NHL defensemen (and players in the whole) wouldn't execute a good pass to save their lifes.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Neutral Zone.

But as far as I remember the red line was eliminated to counter all those neutral zone traps. So it seems like NHL teams renounced forchecking even before the red line's eliminating.

And to overcome forcheck, you gotta be pretty good hockey sense wise. Most modern NHL defensemen (and players in the whole) wouldn't execute a good pass to save their lifes.

By eliminating the neutral zone offside the neutral zone trap was countered. So the forwards playing defense could not simply clutter the offensive side of the neutral zone. The whole neutral zone was put in play.

To forecheck effectively you need centers that can manage the spacing effectively for each type of forecheck and wingers that can play their wings properly. Very few, one maybe two centers a team could do that in the nineties. Wingers likewise. Neutral zone trap standardizes to the lowest common denominator for forwards. Simple to play.

 

[alko]

You must have a team for this. Team with great condition. It is good know, that Soviets had very brutal training methods.
Now, if some head couch would do it, he will be fired next day.

 

[Rhiessan71]

It‘s the same reason that almost every NFL team plays zone/prevent with a lead now. Pressure defense can open you up to big plays.
Today‘s NHL is all about playing it safe and playing not to lose.

Go back and watch the Keenan Hawk‘s in the early 90‘s if you want to the same kind of pressure. They were a forechecking machine.
2 deep and the 3rd man high in the opposing zone.

 

[Justinov]

So all these years later do you regard the abandonment of the red line off side as a good or bad thing?

If NHL teams even today play it safe are we not back in a situation where forechecking could make the game more interesting??
I mean training methods have come a long way....

 

[Kshahdoo]

By eliminating the neutral zone offside the neutral zone trap was countered. So the forwards playing defense could not simply clutter the offensive side of the neutral zone. The whole neutral zone was put in play.

To forecheck effectively you need centers that can manage the spacing effectively for each type of forecheck and wingers that can play their wings properly. Very few, one maybe two centers a team could do that in the nineties. Wingers likewise. Neutral zone trap standardizes to the lowest common denominator for forwards. Simple to play.

Not sure, if true. It looks like nowdays NHL teams play some kind of hybrid of trap and forcheck.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Old Hockey

Not sure, if true. It looks like nowdays NHL teams play some kind of hybrid of trap and forcheck.

Just the old hockey, pre neutral zone trap, with the defensemen back a few strides protecting their defensive blueline instead of relying on the red line offside.