CSB Rankings Released This Afternoon: Landeskog #1?

zorz

Registered User
Mar 8, 2010
4,029
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i think junior hockey has evolved a new big 6: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland, and Switzerland. In recent years, even the czechs have been falling behind the swiss.


Interesting to see that 2 of the top 3 euro players should come from the CHL this year, possibly 3 of 4 if musil picks it up. Is this a matter of the best euros deciding to go to canada or is it that euros in canada get more attention?


also, anyone else think that the euro top-end is incredibly shallow? Sure we have two euros in the #1 battle, but i see only 5 european skaters as solid 1st rounders this year: Landeskog, Larsson, Bartchi, Armia, and (BC-born, Edmonton-raised) Musil. Namestnikov, jurco, and jensen could easily fall out of the 1st round.

Musil lived and played hockey in Czech Rep. until last season ;)
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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Feb 27, 2002
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CSB always have some very strange rankings that puzzle a lot of us, and this is particularly true in the fall and midterms. They typically clean up some of the mistakes by the final rankings, but definitely not all of them.

Just looking at last year's midterms, remember that CSB had:
Skinner #47 in NA
Schwartz #41 in NA
Hishon #46 in NA

All of these guys were gone in the top 20 picks or so as I recall. Those rankings basically had them as early 3rd rounders.

So they definitely have Strome and Puempel off. Sometimes this happens by comparing different scouts "scores" for players, but for Puempel, the same scout HAS to be watching Jensen and Jenner (same region), and I simply don't know how they have the Oshawa guys ahead of Puempel (my opinion, anyway). Khokhlachev is a strange one, but CSB is not alone in dropping him. I'm not sure why, as I have to think he is a late 1st round candidate given his production in NA and his relative age.

A few other thoughts...

I think Grimaldi is the real deal despite his size. He has scored well against US college players with the US18's. He is that dynamic.

Bartschi is someone taking some criticism, but hasn't anyone else noticed that he is scoring more PPG than Ryan Johansson and Nino Neidereitter while playing on the same team? A year younger and outproducing those two, he has to be doing something right...
 

Rabid Ranger

2 is better than one
Feb 27, 2002
31,015
11,021
Murica
Bruins will take the BPA. It's that simple. Majority of the B's winger prospects used to be centres. So it wouldn't be anything new if they drafted a centre again and would put him or Colborne for example on the wing. And the B's could really use a first line forward with elite skill for the future. Right now they have Seguin and maybe Spooner and Colborne. And that's a pretty big maybe.

Weird that the two guys, St. Croix and Bell, whose upside I really liked when I watched them play live, are so low. Can someone here tell us more about Tyler Biggs? Im sure here's a lot of people that don't know pretty much anything about him. Should he be that high?

Biggs has power forward potential. Very projectable physical skills, good size, good goal scoring ability, some snarl, and "intangibles." I'm not surprised he's a riser. He's someone to look out for on next year's U.S. WJC team.
 

Bjindaho

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Jun 12, 2006
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9 players from the Saint John Sea Dogs and another who was traded last week in the Eric Gelinas deal. :handclap:
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,714
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Toruń, PL
i think junior hockey has evolved a new big 6: Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland, and Switzerland. In recent years, even the czechs have been falling behind the swiss.


Interesting to see that 2 of the top 3 euro players should come from the CHL this year, possibly 3 of 4 if musil picks it up. Is this a matter of the best euros deciding to go to canada or is it that euros in canada get more attention?


also, anyone else think that the euro top-end is incredibly shallow? Sure we have two euros in the #1 battle, but i see only 5 european skaters as solid 1st rounders this year: Landeskog, Larsson, Bartchi, Armia, and (BC-born, Edmonton-raised) Musil. Namestnikov, jurco, and jensen could easily fall out of the 1st round.

Every once in a while the European skaters take a hit and it happens that these last 3-4 years have been one of those times. Overall I think it really depends on each draft class too, because 2012 & 2013 (still both far away) are having tons of high end European talent including one from Czech, Slovakia, Russia, Sweden, and Latvia. With a few talented prospects might be coming from Denmark, Finland, and Norway.
 

pdxshark

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Apr 26, 2006
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0
Portland, OR
nice to see Joe Morrow being ranked up there, he's got a ton of potential. He's a good player now but if you look at the strides he's made since joining the hawks, he's another one of those high ceiling type players.

And Bartschi is flat out impressive. Not as big as nino but can maintain posession with some nifty moves and has the speed and brain to create. More boom/bust than nino because I think he's gotta be a top 6 player to be in the NHL. I think he's better offensively than Nino.
 

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
30,714
16,242
Toruń, PL
E.J McGuier says "as many as eight guys could be taken first".

This is going to be the first draft in a really long time that 1st overall is completely open. I really thought that nothing could be more messed up like the 2010 draft was, but this one might become even weirder!
 

GDU

Registered User
Dec 19, 2008
1,450
1
oilers r in a nice position, very likely they will end up in bottom four, and nugent-hopkins at worst...

it will be very interesting to see if the oilers get to pick higher though and have to choose between couturier/larrson.... i don't think they can pass on the big centre they have been coveting for the past 15 years...

with all that i could even see them trading up to get him couturier
 

FrozenJagrt

Registered User
Dec 16, 2009
10,446
4,488
Glad to see Gabriel getting this much love. This was a guy who wasn't even projected to be top 20 a year ago. Obviously other players have more upside, but Landeskog's probably the surest thing I've seen in the draft in a long time. He's playing an NHL level game in the OHL. His style of play could easily see him in the NHL from the start next year because it's so much about making simple plays and getting to the dirty areas. I'd kill to get him on the Leafs.
 

danishh

Registered User
Dec 9, 2006
33,018
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YOW
Musil lived and played hockey in Czech Rep. until last season ;)

musil is an interesting story. Born in BC (i assume frank had a house there or something), grew up in alberta + a little time in ottawa. I dont think he went back to czech until his early teens. Then czech junior league, czech mens league, and now he's back in BC with vancouver.

obviously he considers himself czech, with his family only in canada for work, but there must have been some canadian influence on his development as a kid. Timbits or something.
 

hawksfan50

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
13,983
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as usual Central Scouting has separate lists for NAskaters and Euroskaters and for NA goalies and Eurogoalies...So it is hard to get a total composite assessment of everything thrown into a ranking..

BUT here are some of my thoughts on their big errors even on their own 4 lists:

1. Mark McNeill at # 22 vs, RNH at # 3 is not justified by any degree of logic -there simpl;y is not that big a "gap" uNLEESS you want to reverse the positions which is closer to the truth...Their points production is close RNH 50 pts in 39 GP to McNeill's 48 pts in 44 GP --BUT RED DEER is a deeper better team--and so RNH is surrounded y a bettersupport cast..HE is over-ranked by a lot and MCNeill is way under-ranked by CSS...McNeill has a big sze advantage that willtranslatye better to the nHL pro game...RNH is a smallish centre (nit very "thick") whose points are not spectacular for a small guy and he has only 10 goals --indicating he is mostly a set up guy -he could succedd at the NHl level even as mainly a playmaker --but his numbers are not even Marc Savard-like which they should be for a small centre to "project" to some indication of success at the top level---rather the odds are stacked against smaller centres who cannot score enough goals to justify the risk of an NHl team carrying them and getting pushed around by the bigger players at that level...


2. How can there be such a huge gap between 2 Mississauga draft eligible d-men---Percy is at #51 and Demelo is at #199? Based on the stats you could easily make the case of reversing the positions ..Percy is less than inch taller but Demelo is about 12 pounds heavier ..There certainly is not as big a gap as they have between them and they may have the order wrong.. I think Percy is about a mid-2nd rounder but Demelo should be right there and probably a few picks ahead of him earlier in the 2nd round..
Anyway this is a good one for draftniks who follow the OHL to sort out in the 2nd half ...which actually is the better prospect?


3. CSS has Dougie Hamilton as the best N.A. D-man--with a surprising "gap" over Dunan Siemens who is oNLY at #14 on their NA skater list --whereas ISS seems to favour their darling Siemens over Hamilton... I have not seen Siemens play so I cannot say who is right on this issue ..WHat I can say is that having seen Larsson at the WJHC and while he played well-to me it was not exceptionally well to say that he absolutely must be the top D-man of this draft...He simply at ths stage is more exposed on the international stage developed earlier than Hamilton who has not yet hit the WJHC --BUT my hunch is that Hamilton willbe the better NHL'er down the line... I just like the size,efficient knocking guys off pucks aboility,wingspan,stick,skating,passing and now improved and improving processing of the game Hamilton has shown ..He's a much bter prospect than Gudbranson was at last year;s draft in my opinion...Hamilton is easily #2 overall after Landeskog -and maybe will turn out even the best plyer to come from this draft...Hamilton to me is the safest pick to star out of this draft -he "can't miss' -and i do not think you can say that of anyone else ..MCGUIRE of CSS says 8 guys could go number one in this draft and surey this MUST include hamilton for consideration ...IF they have Hamilton at #7 and you add just 1 goalie (NA or Euro) or just 1 euroskater
then there is ltle margin left on their assessment for any other guy to bump Hamilton down outof this 8 who might go #1 --whivh mEANS CSS has Hamilton too low in the ranking to risk that possibility from consideration--because HONESTLY he has been a RISER on the CSS rankings since the prelim ranking but of oTHERSof this supposed top 8 except for Landeskog who also has beena RISER since last summer, you can easily claim some doubts,flaws,disapointments,stalls--whatever...not so with Hamilton who has gotten better and better and now can command the direction of shifts...every fabric of what i see and logic tells me Hamilton should be at least #2 overall now -he's that impressive as a pro prospect . I think Larsson is a solid D-man prospect but i see no command of the ice as I do now with Hamilton..Hamilton will just eat up lots of minutes
as an eventual top pair d-man for the nHl team that gets him -shutting down opponents yet also initiating key offensive attacks at the right junctures in games.. You just cannot go wrong drafting this guy...The only area still left for him to improve at is his shot -and he does have a tendency to not use his shot when its therefrom the point but instead tries to make the perfect pass -but this doesn't mean he has a bad shot-just that it could be more impactful if he used it more often...Otherwise I love everything else that he does out there. He is one of the very best pro prospect D-men to come along in awile given his size speed and toolset -You have to see how easily he knocks guys off pucks albeit in an efficient manner that is not "nasty" --how smooth he transitions to the attack ,how easily he clears pucks out ,the wingspan with stick to bust up passing in the lanes,the speed to get to loose pucks before or at the same time as opponents and win the puck, can make the good long stretch pass,can jump up in the play at the right time without getting caught up ice as many do -so its just a whole bunch of stuff this guy does so well --really he should be marked "can't miss' ...SO if he indeed goes ONLY #7 -that team is getting a heck of a steal ..but really he should be higher--perhaps as i say even #2 overall -he is that good now but also getting better all the time..Yes he has "RISEN" on most rankings since last summer --but the impressive thing is he is now commanding games and you project this wonderful pro upsside yet to do even more...
Larsson may have already "peaked"--what yo see idwhat you get--but the impression with Hamilton is --as good as he is this year with Niagara-- you sense that "it" that potential for even MORE to come...

IF there is ONE player that deserves a "gushing" excitment for some scouting departments out of this draft -that player has to be DOUGIE HAMILTON. As much as I also like LANDESKOG and i firmly state he ishould be ranked s the best forward from this draft,I cannot say that LANDESKOG will be a superstar #1pick like a Crsby or Ovechkin- but I would state that Hamilton willbe a "linchpin" d-man for a long time for the NHL team that drafts him. Therefore ranking him only #7 NA skater at mid-term is an error by CSS --he should be much higher.


AS to the Couturier ranking--- the size will favour him--but my hunch is that HUBERDEAU
with his uncanny hockey sense,might be the better pick...IN any case the "gap" between them close as CSS sees it-and that at least is probably true...
HUBERDEAU nees to fill out his frame-but there is time for that..you can't teach natural hockey sense-and he lods of that...Couturier showed a couple of laws at the WJHC --some possibly attributable to his young age in a 19 year old tournament(as the saying goes) but i) he did not light it up scoring goals ii) he seemed to tire easily on some shifts suggesting a conditioning problem iii) lack of that extra gear speed --back-checkers took pucks off him ..to be fair he did do some good things off the boards -BUT the problem was I saw too many "BUTS" raised with his play...so maybe he is only a 6-10 guy not a 1-5 guy...it raises doubts in my mind..I expected more even despite his age.

RNH is clearly over-ranked and should be behind Mark McNeill when you now project the pro potential. AND as a futher aside --there is no reason to rank RNH with that much of a gap over say a shane Prince in the smaller skilled forward group..
I mean supposedly PRINCE's stats are downplayed because as a smaller skill guy he will
have trouble taking his jr. success to the pros-then why not for RNH who is no big guy either? YET PRINCE is 5'11 185 and RNH is 6'0 164 ---and RNH has no 'gap' on skating over Prince-if anything Prince is better--and Primce has 74 pts to RNH's only 50 pts ..
SO why the gap? IT can't be defense..Have the scouts not seen Prince back--check - I have...RNH is +8 Prince is +37 --oh wait--PRINCE has Toffoli and Martindale to play with as linemates--RNH has not got the ame talent to play with ---SURE-- 2 guys deemed not even worthy of invitation to team canada Jrs --obviously somebody goofed in that asssement while somebody else is goofing in siggesting RNH is at #3 if Prince is only at #35 on just the NA skater list--this makes zero sense to me.PRINCE also finishes better --21 goals to RNH's paltry 10.
One must remember that in the summer Ivan Hlinka where RNH "dazzled" scouts--he had TOFFOLI playing on his line. THEREFORE if PRINCE is benefitting the same now with TOFFOLI they must be thinking that if RNH was with Ottawa he'ds have PRINCE's stats and vice versa -therefore if Prince didn't have Toffoli and put up ONLY RNH's ststs he'd go #3 for that impressive accomplishment?

My point is that there is toobig a gap penalty to Prince for this benefitting because it says that without the top talent 'help" RNH cannot impact muchor at least to the worthy level of a #3 overall --in that sense IF PRINCE is #35 ,RNH can only be an early 2nd rounder too...OR you could give PRINCE some credit too for TOFFOLI and MARTINDALE"s success...now watching the 67's ==can one say PRINCE is only rifing shotgun to T+M --only benefitting rom thir outstanding contributions-- NO!! Because I've seen games where PRINCE wsas more cause than beneficiaiary to the line's sucess. I have seen the guy back-check too defensively. He is nmot merely a skilled one-eay guy.

THEREFORE to me I think this: RNH is over-rated;PRINCE is under-rated by CSS..THey both should probably be rated in the 12-20 grouping of round one.
There is ZERO guaranee that RNH willbe a better pro than PRINCE as much as no guaratee that both or either will make it at the nHL level ...this is the crap shoot of drafting jrs--- certai Jr. "stars" will go on to be NHL "stars" -other Jr. "stars'-never reach the heights tey has as jrs. even if they make the NHL rosters..
The point about "gaps'" in the ranking lists is that they shouldreflect some reality-but clearly as beteen RNH and PRINCE the CSS gap is not justified...RNH cannot impact even as a Jr. to such a degree more than Prince can in determining the outcome of a game -if anything it may be the reverse.
A gap of 32 players between them and MORE if golies and euros are added is simply CRAZY.
 

zorz

Registered User
Mar 8, 2010
4,029
4
musil is an interesting story. Born in BC (i assume frank had a house there or something), grew up in alberta + a little time in ottawa. I dont think he went back to czech until his early teens. Then czech junior league, czech mens league, and now he's back in BC with vancouver.

Thx, I didn't know that part about Alberta and Ottawa :)
 

leoleo3535

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
2,135
2
hockey rinks
as usual Central Scouting has separate lists for NAskaters and Euroskaters and for NA goalies and Eurogoalies...So it is hard to get a total composite assessment of everything thrown into a ranking..

BUT here are some of my thoughts on their big errors even on their own 4 lists:

1. Mark McNeill at # 22 vs, RNH at # 3 is not justified by any degree of logic -there simpl;y is not that big a "gap" uNLEESS you want to reverse the positions which is closer to the truth...Their points production is close RNH 50 pts in 39 GP to McNeill's 48 pts in 44 GP --BUT RED DEER is a deeper better team--and so RNH is surrounded y a bettersupport cast..HE is over-ranked by a lot and MCNeill is way under-ranked by CSS...McNeill has a big sze advantage that willtranslatye better to the nHL pro game...RNH is a smallish centre (nit very "thick") whose points are not spectacular for a small guy and he has only 10 goals --indicating he is mostly a set up guy -he could succedd at the NHl level even as mainly a playmaker --but his numbers are not even Marc Savard-like which they should be for a small centre to "project" to some indication of success at the top level---rather the odds are stacked against smaller centres who cannot score enough goals to justify the risk of an NHl team carrying them and getting pushed around by the bigger players at that level...


2. How can there be such a huge gap between 2 Mississauga draft eligible d-men---Percy is at #51 and Demelo is at #199? Based on the stats you could easily make the case of reversing the positions ..Percy is less than inch taller but Demelo is about 12 pounds heavier ..There certainly is not as big a gap as they have between them and they may have the order wrong.. I think Percy is about a mid-2nd rounder but Demelo should be right there and probably a few picks ahead of him earlier in the 2nd round..
Anyway this is a good one for draftniks who follow the OHL to sort out in the 2nd half ...which actually is the better prospect?


3. CSS has Dougie Hamilton as the best N.A. D-man--with a surprising "gap" over Dunan Siemens who is oNLY at #14 on their NA skater list --whereas ISS seems to favour their darling Siemens over Hamilton... I have not seen Siemens play so I cannot say who is right on this issue ..WHat I can say is that having seen Larsson at the WJHC and while he played well-to me it was not exceptionally well to say that he absolutely must be the top D-man of this draft...He simply at ths stage is more exposed on the international stage developed earlier than Hamilton who has not yet hit the WJHC --BUT my hunch is that Hamilton willbe the better NHL'er down the line... I just like the size,efficient knocking guys off pucks aboility,wingspan,stick,skating,passing and now improved and improving processing of the game Hamilton has shown ..He's a much bter prospect than Gudbranson was at last year;s draft in my opinion...Hamilton is easily #2 overall after Landeskog -and maybe will turn out even the best plyer to come from this draft...Hamilton to me is the safest pick to star out of this draft -he "can't miss' -and i do not think you can say that of anyone else ..MCGUIRE of CSS says 8 guys could go number one in this draft and surey this MUST include hamilton for consideration ...IF they have Hamilton at #7 and you add just 1 goalie (NA or Euro) or just 1 euroskater
then there is ltle margin left on their assessment for any other guy to bump Hamilton down outof this 8 who might go #1 --whivh mEANS CSS has Hamilton too low in the ranking to risk that possibility from consideration--because HONESTLY he has been a RISER on the CSS rankings since the prelim ranking but of oTHERSof this supposed top 8 except for Landeskog who also has beena RISER since last summer, you can easily claim some doubts,flaws,disapointments,stalls--whatever...not so with Hamilton who has gotten better and better and now can command the direction of shifts...every fabric of what i see and logic tells me Hamilton should be at least #2 overall now -he's that impressive as a pro prospect . I think Larsson is a solid D-man prospect but i see no command of the ice as I do now with Hamilton..Hamilton will just eat up lots of minutes
as an eventual top pair d-man for the nHl team that gets him -shutting down opponents yet also initiating key offensive attacks at the right junctures in games.. You just cannot go wrong drafting this guy...The only area still left for him to improve at is his shot -and he does have a tendency to not use his shot when its therefrom the point but instead tries to make the perfect pass -but this doesn't mean he has a bad shot-just that it could be more impactful if he used it more often...Otherwise I love everything else that he does out there. He is one of the very best pro prospect D-men to come along in awile given his size speed and toolset -You have to see how easily he knocks guys off pucks albeit in an efficient manner that is not "nasty" --how smooth he transitions to the attack ,how easily he clears pucks out ,the wingspan with stick to bust up passing in the lanes,the speed to get to loose pucks before or at the same time as opponents and win the puck, can make the good long stretch pass,can jump up in the play at the right time without getting caught up ice as many do -so its just a whole bunch of stuff this guy does so well --really he should be marked "can't miss' ...SO if he indeed goes ONLY #7 -that team is getting a heck of a steal ..but really he should be higher--perhaps as i say even #2 overall -he is that good now but also getting better all the time..Yes he has "RISEN" on most rankings since last summer --but the impressive thing is he is now commanding games and you project this wonderful pro upsside yet to do even more...
Larsson may have already "peaked"--what yo see idwhat you get--but the impression with Hamilton is --as good as he is this year with Niagara-- you sense that "it" that potential for even MORE to come...

IF there is ONE player that deserves a "gushing" excitment for some scouting departments out of this draft -that player has to be DOUGIE HAMILTON. As much as I also like LANDESKOG and i firmly state he ishould be ranked s the best forward from this draft,I cannot say that LANDESKOG will be a superstar #1pick like a Crsby or Ovechkin- but I would state that Hamilton willbe a "linchpin" d-man for a long time for the NHL team that drafts him. Therefore ranking him only #7 NA skater at mid-term is an error by CSS --he should be much higher.


AS to the Couturier ranking--- the size will favour him--but my hunch is that HUBERDEAU
with his uncanny hockey sense,might be the better pick...IN any case the "gap" between them close as CSS sees it-and that at least is probably true...
HUBERDEAU nees to fill out his frame-but there is time for that..you can't teach natural hockey sense-and he lods of that...Couturier showed a couple of laws at the WJHC --some possibly attributable to his young age in a 19 year old tournament(as the saying goes) but i) he did not light it up scoring goals ii) he seemed to tire easily on some shifts suggesting a conditioning problem iii) lack of that extra gear speed --back-checkers took pucks off him ..to be fair he did do some good things off the boards -BUT the problem was I saw too many "BUTS" raised with his play...so maybe he is only a 6-10 guy not a 1-5 guy...it raises doubts in my mind..I expected more even despite his age.

RNH is clearly over-ranked and should be behind Mark McNeill when you now project the pro potential. AND as a futher aside --there is no reason to rank RNH with that much of a gap over say a shane Prince in the smaller skilled forward group..
I mean supposedly PRINCE's stats are downplayed because as a smaller skill guy he will
have trouble taking his jr. success to the pros-then why not for RNH who is no big guy either? YET PRINCE is 5'11 185 and RNH is 6'0 164 ---and RNH has no 'gap' on skating over Prince-if anything Prince is better--and Primce has 74 pts to RNH's only 50 pts ..
SO why the gap? IT can't be defense..Have the scouts not seen Prince back--check - I have...RNH is +8 Prince is +37 --oh wait--PRINCE has Toffoli and Martindale to play with as linemates--RNH has not got the ame talent to play with ---SURE-- 2 guys deemed not even worthy of invitation to team canada Jrs --obviously somebody goofed in that asssement while somebody else is goofing in siggesting RNH is at #3 if Prince is only at #35 on just the NA skater list--this makes zero sense to me.PRINCE also finishes better --21 goals to RNH's paltry 10.
One must remember that in the summer Ivan Hlinka where RNH "dazzled" scouts--he had TOFFOLI playing on his line. THEREFORE if PRINCE is benefitting the same now with TOFFOLI they must be thinking that if RNH was with Ottawa he'ds have PRINCE's stats and vice versa -therefore if Prince didn't have Toffoli and put up ONLY RNH's ststs he'd go #3 for that impressive accomplishment?

My point is that there is toobig a gap penalty to Prince for this benefitting because it says that without the top talent 'help" RNH cannot impact muchor at least to the worthy level of a #3 overall --in that sense IF PRINCE is #35 ,RNH can only be an early 2nd rounder too...OR you could give PRINCE some credit too for TOFFOLI and MARTINDALE"s success...now watching the 67's ==can one say PRINCE is only rifing shotgun to T+M --only benefitting rom thir outstanding contributions-- NO!! Because I've seen games where PRINCE wsas more cause than beneficiaiary to the line's sucess. I have seen the guy back-check too defensively. He is nmot merely a skilled one-eay guy.

THEREFORE to me I think this: RNH is over-rated;PRINCE is under-rated by CSS..THey both should probably be rated in the 12-20 grouping of round one.
There is ZERO guaranee that RNH willbe a better pro than PRINCE as much as no guaratee that both or either will make it at the nHL level ...this is the crap shoot of drafting jrs--- certai Jr. "stars" will go on to be NHL "stars" -other Jr. "stars'-never reach the heights tey has as jrs. even if they make the NHL rosters..
The point about "gaps'" in the ranking lists is that they shouldreflect some reality-but clearly as beteen RNH and PRINCE the CSS gap is not justified...RNH cannot impact even as a Jr. to such a degree more than Prince can in determining the outcome of a game -if anything it may be the reverse.
A gap of 32 players between them and MORE if golies and euros are added is simply CRAZY.

Keep in mind Central Scouting have seen the players live time and time again.
You have seen 99% of them live not even once.
Scouting is not done by reading stats sheets.
 

danishh

Registered User
Dec 9, 2006
33,018
53
YOW
hawksfan, that was almost impossible for me to read.

as a 67s fan, i think prince is underrated as well, but you have to consider: He's a november bday, which means kids a few months older than him, who played at the same level as him growing up, were drafted last year. A lot of the top-end this year is also late birthdays, but at the top end they have talent scouts ignore, whereas prince is simply really good.

As well, there is the toffoli effect. Yes prince helps toffoli a lot, but toffoli is one of the best players in the OHL right now. Scouts will discount prince a bit because of this. He's playing on a line with two OHL veterans who produced well last year without him.
 

Andy Dufresne

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
2,617
696
A little surprised not seeing Jesse Forsberg at the list.

That has to be 100% a clerical error/accident. If you look at the other WHL west d-men on that list, anybody who's seen these guys knows Forsberg 'has' to be on the list. Forsberg is exactly the kind of player CSB usually loves. example: He's a better version of Hansen who is #97 on the list, even if that's a debatable statement there's still no way he doesn't make a 210 player list.

I'm surprised nobody is freaking out McColgan being #102, only 3 spots ahead of his even smaller less talented team-mate Franko.
 

Lazarrr

Registered User
Apr 10, 2010
1,399
0
Ottawa
. ---SURE-- 2 guys deemed not even worthy of invitation to team canada Jrs --.

Prince is American but I completely agree with you. I don't understand how the 2nd highest scorer in the OHL is ranked so low. Just doesn't make sense.
 

prongertheman9

Registered User
May 30, 2010
448
516
as usual Central Scouting has separate lists for NAskaters and Euroskaters and for NA goalies and Eurogoalies...So it is hard to get a total composite assessment of everything thrown into a ranking..

BUT here are some of my thoughts on their big errors even on their own 4 lists:

1. Mark McNeill at # 22 vs, RNH at # 3 is not justified by any degree of logic -there simpl;y is not that big a "gap" uNLEESS you want to reverse the positions which is closer to the truth...Their points production is close RNH 50 pts in 39 GP to McNeill's 48 pts in 44 GP --BUT RED DEER is a deeper better team--and so RNH is surrounded y a bettersupport cast..HE is over-ranked by a lot and MCNeill is way under-ranked by CSS...McNeill has a big sze advantage that willtranslatye better to the nHL pro game...RNH is a smallish centre (nit very "thick") whose points are not spectacular for a small guy and he has only 10 goals --indicating he is mostly a set up guy -he could succedd at the NHl level even as mainly a playmaker --but his numbers are not even Marc Savard-like which they should be for a small centre to "project" to some indication of success at the top level---rather the odds are stacked against smaller centres who cannot score enough goals to justify the risk of an NHl team carrying them and getting pushed around by the bigger players at that level...


2. How can there be such a huge gap between 2 Mississauga draft eligible d-men---Percy is at #51 and Demelo is at #199? Based on the stats you could easily make the case of reversing the positions ..Percy is less than inch taller but Demelo is about 12 pounds heavier ..There certainly is not as big a gap as they have between them and they may have the order wrong.. I think Percy is about a mid-2nd rounder but Demelo should be right there and probably a few picks ahead of him earlier in the 2nd round..
Anyway this is a good one for draftniks who follow the OHL to sort out in the 2nd half ...which actually is the better prospect?


3. CSS has Dougie Hamilton as the best N.A. D-man--with a surprising "gap" over Dunan Siemens who is oNLY at #14 on their NA skater list --whereas ISS seems to favour their darling Siemens over Hamilton... I have not seen Siemens play so I cannot say who is right on this issue ..WHat I can say is that having seen Larsson at the WJHC and while he played well-to me it was not exceptionally well to say that he absolutely must be the top D-man of this draft...He simply at ths stage is more exposed on the international stage developed earlier than Hamilton who has not yet hit the WJHC --BUT my hunch is that Hamilton willbe the better NHL'er down the line... I just like the size,efficient knocking guys off pucks aboility,wingspan,stick,skating,passing and now improved and improving processing of the game Hamilton has shown ..He's a much bter prospect than Gudbranson was at last year;s draft in my opinion...Hamilton is easily #2 overall after Landeskog -and maybe will turn out even the best plyer to come from this draft...Hamilton to me is the safest pick to star out of this draft -he "can't miss' -and i do not think you can say that of anyone else ..MCGUIRE of CSS says 8 guys could go number one in this draft and surey this MUST include hamilton for consideration ...IF they have Hamilton at #7 and you add just 1 goalie (NA or Euro) or just 1 euroskater
then there is ltle margin left on their assessment for any other guy to bump Hamilton down outof this 8 who might go #1 --whivh mEANS CSS has Hamilton too low in the ranking to risk that possibility from consideration--because HONESTLY he has been a RISER on the CSS rankings since the prelim ranking but of oTHERSof this supposed top 8 except for Landeskog who also has beena RISER since last summer, you can easily claim some doubts,flaws,disapointments,stalls--whatever...not so with Hamilton who has gotten better and better and now can command the direction of shifts...every fabric of what i see and logic tells me Hamilton should be at least #2 overall now -he's that impressive as a pro prospect . I think Larsson is a solid D-man prospect but i see no command of the ice as I do now with Hamilton..Hamilton will just eat up lots of minutes
as an eventual top pair d-man for the nHl team that gets him -shutting down opponents yet also initiating key offensive attacks at the right junctures in games.. You just cannot go wrong drafting this guy...The only area still left for him to improve at is his shot -and he does have a tendency to not use his shot when its therefrom the point but instead tries to make the perfect pass -but this doesn't mean he has a bad shot-just that it could be more impactful if he used it more often...Otherwise I love everything else that he does out there. He is one of the very best pro prospect D-men to come along in awile given his size speed and toolset -You have to see how easily he knocks guys off pucks albeit in an efficient manner that is not "nasty" --how smooth he transitions to the attack ,how easily he clears pucks out ,the wingspan with stick to bust up passing in the lanes,the speed to get to loose pucks before or at the same time as opponents and win the puck, can make the good long stretch pass,can jump up in the play at the right time without getting caught up ice as many do -so its just a whole bunch of stuff this guy does so well --really he should be marked "can't miss' ...SO if he indeed goes ONLY #7 -that team is getting a heck of a steal ..but really he should be higher--perhaps as i say even #2 overall -he is that good now but also getting better all the time..Yes he has "RISEN" on most rankings since last summer --but the impressive thing is he is now commanding games and you project this wonderful pro upsside yet to do even more...
Larsson may have already "peaked"--what yo see idwhat you get--but the impression with Hamilton is --as good as he is this year with Niagara-- you sense that "it" that potential for even MORE to come...

IF there is ONE player that deserves a "gushing" excitment for some scouting departments out of this draft -that player has to be DOUGIE HAMILTON. As much as I also like LANDESKOG and i firmly state he ishould be ranked s the best forward from this draft,I cannot say that LANDESKOG will be a superstar #1pick like a Crsby or Ovechkin- but I would state that Hamilton willbe a "linchpin" d-man for a long time for the NHL team that drafts him. Therefore ranking him only #7 NA skater at mid-term is an error by CSS --he should be much higher.


AS to the Couturier ranking--- the size will favour him--but my hunch is that HUBERDEAU
with his uncanny hockey sense,might be the better pick...IN any case the "gap" between them close as CSS sees it-and that at least is probably true...
HUBERDEAU nees to fill out his frame-but there is time for that..you can't teach natural hockey sense-and he lods of that...Couturier showed a couple of laws at the WJHC --some possibly attributable to his young age in a 19 year old tournament(as the saying goes) but i) he did not light it up scoring goals ii) he seemed to tire easily on some shifts suggesting a conditioning problem iii) lack of that extra gear speed --back-checkers took pucks off him ..to be fair he did do some good things off the boards -BUT the problem was I saw too many "BUTS" raised with his play...so maybe he is only a 6-10 guy not a 1-5 guy...it raises doubts in my mind..I expected more even despite his age.

RNH is clearly over-ranked and should be behind Mark McNeill when you now project the pro potential. AND as a futher aside --there is no reason to rank RNH with that much of a gap over say a shane Prince in the smaller skilled forward group..
I mean supposedly PRINCE's stats are downplayed because as a smaller skill guy he will
have trouble taking his jr. success to the pros-then why not for RNH who is no big guy either? YET PRINCE is 5'11 185 and RNH is 6'0 164 ---and RNH has no 'gap' on skating over Prince-if anything Prince is better--and Primce has 74 pts to RNH's only 50 pts ..
SO why the gap? IT can't be defense..Have the scouts not seen Prince back--check - I have...RNH is +8 Prince is +37 --oh wait--PRINCE has Toffoli and Martindale to play with as linemates--RNH has not got the ame talent to play with ---SURE-- 2 guys deemed not even worthy of invitation to team canada Jrs --obviously somebody goofed in that asssement while somebody else is goofing in siggesting RNH is at #3 if Prince is only at #35 on just the NA skater list--this makes zero sense to me.PRINCE also finishes better --21 goals to RNH's paltry 10.
One must remember that in the summer Ivan Hlinka where RNH "dazzled" scouts--he had TOFFOLI playing on his line. THEREFORE if PRINCE is benefitting the same now with TOFFOLI they must be thinking that if RNH was with Ottawa he'ds have PRINCE's stats and vice versa -therefore if Prince didn't have Toffoli and put up ONLY RNH's ststs he'd go #3 for that impressive accomplishment?

My point is that there is toobig a gap penalty to Prince for this benefitting because it says that without the top talent 'help" RNH cannot impact muchor at least to the worthy level of a #3 overall --in that sense IF PRINCE is #35 ,RNH can only be an early 2nd rounder too...OR you could give PRINCE some credit too for TOFFOLI and MARTINDALE"s success...now watching the 67's ==can one say PRINCE is only rifing shotgun to T+M --only benefitting rom thir outstanding contributions-- NO!! Because I've seen games where PRINCE wsas more cause than beneficiaiary to the line's sucess. I have seen the guy back-check too defensively. He is nmot merely a skilled one-eay guy.

THEREFORE to me I think this: RNH is over-rated;PRINCE is under-rated by CSS..THey both should probably be rated in the 12-20 grouping of round one.
There is ZERO guaranee that RNH willbe a better pro than PRINCE as much as no guaratee that both or either will make it at the nHL level ...this is the crap shoot of drafting jrs--- certai Jr. "stars" will go on to be NHL "stars" -other Jr. "stars'-never reach the heights tey has as jrs. even if they make the NHL rosters..
The point about "gaps'" in the ranking lists is that they shouldreflect some reality-but clearly as beteen RNH and PRINCE the CSS gap is not justified...RNH cannot impact even as a Jr. to such a degree more than Prince can in determining the outcome of a game -if anything it may be the reverse.
A gap of 32 players between them and MORE if golies and euros are added is simply CRAZY.


Mr. Madison, what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

On a serious note though you clearly have not seen RNH play because if you did you would know that simply looking at stats and comparing them to other players isn't going to give you the answers to why is he ranked higher than McNeil and Prince.
 

wej20

Registered User
Aug 14, 2008
27,957
1,926
UK
CSB always have some very strange rankings that puzzle a lot of us, and this is particularly true in the fall and midterms. They typically clean up some of the mistakes by the final rankings, but definitely not all of them.

Just looking at last year's midterms, remember that CSB had:
Skinner #47 in NA
Schwartz #41 in NA
Hishon #46 in NA

All of these guys were gone in the top 20 picks or so as I recall. Those rankings basically had them as early 3rd rounders.

So they definitely have Strome and Puempel off. Sometimes this happens by comparing different scouts "scores" for players, but for Puempel, the same scout HAS to be watching Jensen and Jenner (same region), and I simply don't know how they have the Oshawa guys ahead of Puempel (my opinion, anyway). Khokhlachev is a strange one, but CSB is not alone in dropping him. I'm not sure why, as I have to think he is a late 1st round candidate given his production in NA and his relative age.

A few other thoughts...

I think Grimaldi is the real deal despite his size. He has scored well against US college players with the US18's. He is that dynamic.

Bartschi is someone taking some criticism, but hasn't anyone else noticed that he is scoring more PPG than Ryan Johansson and Nino Neidereitter while playing on the same team? A year younger and outproducing those two, he has to be doing something right...

They had them all ranked as mid 2nd rounders.
 

Sticks and Pucks

Registered User
Jan 2, 2008
2,282
152
St. Croix will be this year's Jeff Skinner. Not because he'll make the NHL immediately but because he is ranked low, yet someone will take him in the first round.
 

OilerOlli*

Guest
Funny list.
Probably is only good to provocate.
Don't take that list serious, guys.
 

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