Crosby vs Bourque?

[Nadal On Clay]

Of course. He would have definitely been up there threatening for it. No doubt.

Then that’s my fault because when I hear “all around”, I think a player with great defense while having offense. Regardless, I don’t see how he was more “all around” offensively. I mean they had very similar stats.

Linemates was never the reasoning, it was the team in general. Literally the same reasoning as to why Crosby and Malkin took another 7 years to win a cup, two players can’t carry a team like that over and over again. I have no clue where you are getting all this talk from because it can’t be any further from the truth.

Ovechkins lack of playoff success PLAGUED his name and legacy up until this past season while it brought Crosby to a whole other level. Ovechkin was the caps best playoff performer regardless, but the team around him always seemed to fall short. But Crosby gets full credit for his playoff success in general, all while Ovechkin was seen as inferior because of it.

I mean you can call it “clutch”, but the Pens won 6-2, with Ovi scoring one of those goals. I mean Crosby contributed, but how much credit of “clutchness” are you going to give someone in a 6-2 win?

Ovechkin was pretty much getting the benefit of the doubt by everyone in here and in the medias.

Clutch enough to get 3 pts in a crucial game.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin was pretty much getting the benefit of the doubt by everyone in here and in the medias.

Clutch enough to get 3 pts in a crucial game.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree...

Are you new to this site? Or to the hockey media? Ovechkin got trashed more than anyone for his lack of playoff success. He never got the “benefit of the doubt.” He got blamed for ALL of the Caps losses in the post season, even when he was their best player. Seriously, I don’t understand why you think otherwise.

I guess that’s “clutch.” Still didn’t make him the better player that season.

 

[Varan]

Without the missed games, the art-Ross winners from 2007-2014 could’ve potentially been:

2007: Crosby
2008: Ovechkin
2009: Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin
2011: Crosby
2012: Malkin
2013: Crosby
2014: Crosby

might as well just stamp 'big 3' and call it a day

 

[Varan]

Are you new to this site? Or to the hockey media? Ovechkin got trashed more than anyone for his lack of playoff success. He never got the “benefit of the doubt.” He got blamed for ALL of the Caps losses in the post season, even when he was their best player. Seriously, I don’t understand why you think otherwise.

I guess that’s “clutch.” Still didn’t make him the better player that season.

pure facts. that's just the norm for great players in general. when you're that elite, that all-time great, you will bear majority of the scrutiny. from '10-'15, Crosby was criticized for not being able to get it done, how he was a 1 hit wonder.

 

[Varan]

is this Crosby vs. Bourque or an old-fashioned Crosby vs. Ovechkin thread?

 

[Varan]

let's set the record straight:

Crosby should have 4 Harts, 4 Art Rosses, 4 Ted Lindsay's (06/07, 10/11, 12/13, 13/14) and 1 Rocket (16/17)
Ovechkin should have 3 Harts, 3 Ted Lindsay's, 3 Art Rosses, and 8 Rockets (07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 17/18)

14/15 OV could have won the hart as well, can argue he should have 4

we all know how great they are, and their trophy cases, while they are amazing, aren't telling the whole story. so why we fighting?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

let's set the record straight:

Crosby should have 4 Harts, 4 Art Rosses, 4 Ted Lindsay's (06/07, 10/11, 12/13, 13/14) and 1 Rocket (16/17)
Ovechkin should have 3 Harts, 3 Ted Lindsay's, 3 Art Rosses, and 8 Rockets (07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 17/18)

14/15 OV could have won the hart as well, can argue he should have 4

we all know how great they are, and their trophy cases, while they are amazing, aren't telling the whole story. so why we fighting?

Shouldn't Crosby also have an Art Ross in 11-12, and 14-15, along with another Rocket in 10-11?

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think Bourques consistency was better than Crosby’s in general, but Crosby had the bigger years. I mean to be a Norris Finalists 15 times is incredible. But Crosby still has hockey to play so maybe he can rival that consistency.

Shouldn't Crosby also have an Art Ross in 11-12, and 14-15, along with another Rocket in 10-11?

2012 he didn’t play enough games to make that call. Besides Malkin went beast mode.

 

[Laineux]

let's set the record straight:

Crosby should have 4 Harts, 4 Art Rosses, 4 Ted Lindsay's (06/07, 10/11, 12/13, 13/14) and 1 Rocket (16/17)
Ovechkin should have 3 Harts, 3 Ted Lindsay's, 3 Art Rosses, and 8 Rockets (07/08, 08/09, 09/10, 12/13, 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 17/18)

They should have exactly the awards that they have.

You cannot just rewrite history and then assume that everything else stays the same. It's a very bad argument.

 

[bobholly39]

I think Bourques consistency was better than Crosby’s in general, but Crosby had the bigger years. I mean to be a Norris Finalists 15 times is incredible. But Crosby still has hockey to play so maybe he can rival that consistency.

2012 he didn’t play enough games to make that call. Besides Malkin went beast mode.

For the bolded - of course it's not fair to say someone would have beaten someone with only 22 games played, when that player (Malkin) had such a ridiculous season, as it seems to undermine what Malkin did. And it also gives no real bonus to Crosby for me to argue otherwise (ie - even if we feel he should have won in 2012, it doesn't matter since the 22 games as things stand don't add a whole lot).

That being said - i'm convinced if Crosby is healthy that year he wins by a lot. He was simply on a completely other level in those years.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Are you new to this site? Or to the hockey media? Ovechkin got trashed more than anyone for his lack of playoff success. He never got the “benefit of the doubt.” He got blamed for ALL of the Caps losses in the post season, even when he was their best player. Seriously, I don’t understand why you think otherwise.

I guess that’s “clutch.” Still didn’t make him the better player that season.

LOL. You’re one of the posters on this site who’s always trying to defend Ovechkin for his playoff failures and arguing his teammates were MIA. But since you seem to have an agenda vs Crosby, you can’t give him the benefit of the doubt for playing with below average linemates...

And you think I’m the one with bias? Lol

 

[Midnight Judges]

LOL. You’re one of the posters on this site who’s always trying to defend Ovechkin for his playoff failures and arguing his teammates were MIA. But since you seem to have an agenda vs Crosby, you can’t give him the benefit of the doubt for playing with below average linemates...

And you think I’m the one with bias? Lol

Crosby gets tons of ice time with Malkin. He's like, the third best player of the generation and it's not close.

It makes up for any line mates deficiencies - which are massively overblown anyway.

 

[Midnight Judges]

pure facts. that's just the norm for great players in general. when you're that elite, that all-time great, you will bear majority of the scrutiny. from '10-'15, Crosby was criticized for not being able to get it done, how he was a 1 hit wonder.

I don't recall that. Nor do I recall anyone blaming Crosby for being eliminated last season.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby gets tons of ice time with Malkin. He's like, the third best player of the generation and it's not close.

It makes up for any line mates deficiencies - which are massively overblown anyway.

You should know that they weren’t playing on the same line for the majority of the season. Do you even recall who Crosby’s linemates were?

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I don't recall that. Nor do I recall anyone blaming Crosby for being eliminated last season.

Crosby put up 21 pts in 12 games last playoffs.. more than Ovechkin ever put up after 2 rounds (Tied with 2009 Ovi but he still had a better PPG)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby always had a more developed all-around game back then, while Ovechkin was recognized as a unidimensionnel player by some.

There is a word for that type of logic: Idiotic.

Ovechkin was a 50 assist playmaker, a 50 goal player, he could out-skate the vast majority of the league, and was physically dominant as a hitter. That's 4 aspects (or dimensions) of hockey right there.

Saying he is one dimensional is either beyond stupid or just plain dishonest. There is no other option.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby put up 21 pts in 12 games last playoffs.. more than Ovechkin ever put up after 2 rounds (Tied with 2009 Ovi but he still had a better PPG)

Yeah but Ovechkin was blamed by hundreds of people for years specifically over that playoff run.

So you don't have a point. People were unfair to Ovie in ways that they would never be to Crosby.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

There is a word for that type of logic: Idiotic.

Ovechkin was a 50 assist playmaker, a 50 goal player, he could out-skate the vast majority of the league, and was physically dominant as a hitter. That's 4 aspects (or dimensions) of hockey right there.

Saying he is one dimensional is either beyond stupid or just plain dishonest. There is no other option.

Hitting is so overrated on these boards... Ovechkins hits weren’t changing anything on the game except injuring a couple of players.

Also, lots of OVs goals were on the rush while he was receiving a pass when he was already at Center ice for a breakaway or just sniping it.

I wouldn’t call that unidimensionnel, but it’s somewhat cherry picking (especially on the Pittsburgh series). You obviously need a lot of talent to do it, but as often as he was doing it and with OVs talent, it has to go in sometimes. That’s probably why people were calling him unidimensionnel back in the days.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Yeah but Ovechkin was blamed by hundreds of people for years specifically over that playoff run.

So you don't have a point. People were unfair to Ovie in ways that they would never be to Crosby.

Tbh I wasn’t around in 2009 to relate, but since 2015 (first time I red these boards) I’ve NEVER seen a poster who isn’t a complete OV hater saying that the 2009 playoffs was his fault. That’s nonsense.

 

[Varan]

Shouldn't Crosby also have an Art Ross in 11-12, and 14-15, along with another Rocket in 10-11?

No cause Malkin went beast mode in 2010x and not in 14/15 since he played majority of the season.

You’re right he would have gotten an extra one in 10/11 he was going god mode in 10-11

 

[Varan]

You can make a case that at their very best, OV and Crosby are dead locked.

They both have had stretches where they have produced at a 1.6+ PPG pace and stretches where they have scored over 0.75 GPG.

OV in 2009/10 had 89 points in 53 games before the break (1.68 PPG)

There was a strech where he had 135 points in 82 games (1.65 PPG)

Also from mid March to April end in 2013, he scored 34 points in 21 games (1.61 PPG) with 22 goals (over 1 GPG)

Crosby during his 3 year injured period scored 159 points in 99 games (1.61 PPG)

He was scored at a 0.78 GPG during the 10/11 season with a 1.61 PPG.

There was also another stretch I think where he had something like 142 points in 86 games or something (1.65 PPG)

At their peaks they are dead locked. No one is better then the other. The only problem is that their peaks haven’t really coincided

 

[GreatGonzo]

LOL. You’re one of the posters on this site who’s always trying to defend Ovechkin for his playoff failures and arguing his teammates were MIA. But since you seem to have an agenda vs Crosby, you can’t give him the benefit of the doubt for playing with below average linemates...

And you think I’m the one with bias? Lol

No I did no such thing, all I did was throw reasoning and logic at the posters who go “ZOMG! Ovechkin is a choker!! He will never win a cup!!” Your clearly the one who is being bias.

Like I said, Crosby didn’t win a cup for 7 years for the same reason. But suddenly he gets a better team around him and he wins back to back, I wonder why.....hint: wasn’t because of Crosby or Malkin, just like it wasn’t because of Ovechkin all those years.

I mean look at the evidence. Kuzy and Backstrom struggled in the playoffs in the previous years, then they came out swinging. Holtby had this new and improved confidence, playing out of his mind in a lot of the game. They found great depth scorers in Eller, Smith-Pelley, Wilson, and finally Ovechkin played how he had usually played, only this time around he had much bigger and impactful moments whether it was his hitting, scoring, or just effort in general.

They STILL managed to try to trash Ovi though with his Smythe, yet Crosby lovers everywhere united to defend his Smythe in 2016. Like I said, Ovechkin has gotten twice the flack as Crosby when it comes to playoffs.

Crosby put up 21 pts in 12 games last playoffs.. more than Ovechkin ever put up after 2 rounds (Tied with 2009 Ovi but he still had a better PPG)

and who won the series? The cup?

For the bolded - of course it's not fair to say someone would have beaten someone with only 22 games played, when that player (Malkin) had such a ridiculous season, as it seems to undermine what Malkin did. And it also gives no real bonus to Crosby for me to argue otherwise (ie - even if we feel he should have won in 2012, it doesn't matter since the 22 games as things stand don't add a whole lot).

That being said - i'm convinced if Crosby is healthy that year he wins by a lot. He was simply on a completely other level in those years.

Malkin was on a completely different level than Crosby though that single year. It’s hard to put that on the back burner and focus on Crosby based on what he did the season before, or within that 22 game sample size. I mean Malkins season was arguably the most dominant post lockout, let’s not ignore that. Crosby most likely would have been up there, but there still is no guarantee or telling he would have won by “a lot.” Thats silly.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

No I did no such thing, all I did was throw reasoning and logic at the posters who go “ZOMG! Ovechkin is a choker!! He will never win a cup!!” Your clearly the one who is being bias.

Like I said, Crosby didn’t win a cup for 7 years for the same reason. But suddenly he gets a better team around him and he wins back to back, I wonder why.....hint: wasn’t because of Crosby or Malkin, just like it wasn’t because of Ovechkin all those years.

I mean look at the evidence. Kuzy and Backstrom struggled in the playoffs in the previous years, then they came out swinging. Holtby had this new and improved confidence, playing out of his mind in a lot of the game. They found great depth scorers in Eller, Smith-Pelley, Wilson, and finally Ovechkin played how he had usually played, only this time around he had much bigger and impactful moments whether it was his hitting, scoring, or just effort in general.

They STILL managed to try to trash Ovi though with his Smythe, yet Crosby lovers everywhere united to defend his Smythe in 2016. Like I said, Ovechkin has gotten twice the flack as Crosby when it comes to playoffs.

and who won the series? The cup?

Malkin was on a completely different level than Crosby though that single year. It’s hard to put that on the back burner and focus on Crosby based on what he did the season before, or within that 22 game sample size. I mean Malkins season was arguably the most dominant post lockout, let’s not ignore that. Crosby most likely would have been up there, but there still is no guarantee or telling he would have won by “a lot.” Thats silly.

Yet, you’re forgetting the facts that OV fanboys were bashing Crosby’s Smythe at first glance saying he shouldn’t have won. Obviously Pens fans are gonna defend it. It was a weak Smythe for sure, but considering the competitors, he didn’t steal it

That’s the reason why some Crosby fans trashed OV Smythe by saying he got carried by Kuznetsov and that Kuzy should have won.

A combination of piss poor coaching with utter trash performances by Fleury were the most common reasons why Pittsburgh had problems in those 7 years. Sure, brigning in Kessel and other pieces helped A LOT, but more often than not, depth scoring wasn’t the main cause of the Pens failures like it was with Washington.

Washington deservedly won the series and the cup.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yet, you’re forgetting the facts that OV fanboys were bashing Crosby’s Smythe at first glance saying he shouldn’t have won. Obviously Pens fans are gonna defend it. It was a weak Smythe for sure, but considering the competitors, he didn’t steal it

That’s the reason why some Crosby fans trashed OV Smythe by saying he got carried by Kuznetsov and that Kuzy should have won.

A combination of piss poor coaching with utter trash performances by Fleury were the most common reasons why Pittsburgh had problems in those 7 years. Sure, brigning in Kessel and other pieces helped A LOT, but more often than not, depth scoring wasn’t the main cause of the Pens failures like it was with Washington.

Washington deservedly won the series and the cup.

It was a Smythe that the voters were not ready to give to a rookie goalie or a winger on the second line, Crosby got it mainly based on his rep and just being on the first line. It was many fans who tried to turn it into a “defense” and “clutch” worthy performance. I mean he edged out Kessel mainly because of weird reasonings. But yes it was a weak Smythe regardless, but Ovis post season was much more worthy

I would have had no problems with Kuzy winning it, I think it was close.

The fact remains that there is only so much two players can do. They didn’t win anything within those 7 years, but once they got more talent with a better goalie, their turn around was tremendous.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

It was a Smythe that the voters were not ready to give to a rookie goalie or a winger on the second line, Crosby got it mainly based on his rep and just being on the first line. It was many fans who tried to turn it into a “defense” and “clutch” worthy performance. I mean he edged out Kessel mainly because of weird reasonings. But yes it was a weak Smythe regardless, but Ovis post season was much more worthy

I would have had no problems with Kuzy winning it, I think it was close.

The fact remains that there is only so much two players can do. They didn’t win anything within those 7 years, but once they got more talent with a better goalie, their turn around was tremendous.

Sure, but want it or not Crosby DESERVED his Smythe just like OV deserved his. One was stronger than the other for sure, but both times, there were players who could have won it. It’s not like Kessel posted a stat line of 28pts in 20 games either.

Yeah I agree, they couldn’t have done it by themselves and the mini-rebuild gave Sid and Geno hopes. However, they had a worst depth in 2009 than they had in some of those years and yet, they won MAINLY because of their 2 spectacular performances.